Plot holes (Real ones, not things you don't like)

[Jasta11]

Robert's assassination: not a plot hole per se, but very contrived. The guys goes out to kill a white stag. The stage then dies, he decides to go on, finds a massive boar, and no one intervenes to save the clearly drunk King while a boar is charging at him. And the bit about Cercei having ''other plans'' has always bugged me since 1) she never thinks of them 2) there are few ways to maintain plausible deniability about killing a beloved King and 3) Cercei is never shown to be intelligent enough to have backup plans, why should she have one now? I'm pretty sure Varys was fucking with Ned here.

Ser Rodrick leaving the seat of House Stark, along with the two heirs to the North, defended by less than a skeleton garrison, while it is at war with half the continent. That so so incredibly stupid for someone who is supposed to be a veteran that I can't chalk it up to a simple mistake. This was pure plot convenience.

Tyrion, one of the most vindictive and petty people in the series, forgetting about Littlefinger's betrayal and lies to Cat, which directly led to an escalation of the WotfK and almost ended in Tyrion's death. No way. Even after he's given full powers to clean up the Small Council, the fact he doesn't immediately get rid of the guy who was caught red-handed accusing a Lannister is nothing less than a plot hole.

[sj4iy]

So, basically you expect to be spoonfed every little bit of information. If that's not there then it's a plot hole. Christ almighty.

We don't have the the bankers PoV. We can only presume what he is thinking and what kind of investment he sees in this deal.

Hell no, I expect to be told how Jon manages to convince a banker that a decrepit institution that is no better than a penal colony, dependent on the rest of the country for everything and generating no money or food itself, can pay by a loan that would feed thousands of people for the entire winter, as well as borrowing their ships for a dangerous rescue mission. We don't need Tycho's POV because we have Jon's POV and he was there. It's not spoonfeeding to look at this:

Is that whom I serve? Jon Snow was no longer certain. “I can provide you with horses, provisions, guides, whatever is required to get you as far as Deepwood Motte. From there you will need to make your own way to Stannis.” And you may well find his head upon a spike. “There will be a price.”

“Price,” screamed Mormont’s raven. “Price, price.” “There is always a price, is there not?” The Braavosi smiled. “What does the Watch require?”

“Your ships, for a start. With their crews.”

“All three? How will I return to Braavos?”

“I only need them for a single voyage.”

“A hazardous voyage, I assume. For a start, you said?”

“We need a loan as well. Gold enough to keep us fed till spring. To buy food and hire ships to bring it to us.”

“Spring?” Tycho sighed. “It is not possible, my lord.”

What was it Stannis had said to him? You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Lord

Eddard father you on a fishwife? Perhaps he had at that.

It took the better part of an hour before the impossible became possible, and another hour before they could agree on terms.

and think 'That really doesn't make any sense at all'. This is a thread to talk about plot holes, right? Yet you're going to criticize me for point one out? Some people claim that timber rights explains all of this away, but it doesn't. The NW hasn't had enough people in centuries to clear away the encroaching forest, yet they are supposed to start this huge lumber operation? The only 'explanation' we're given is that Jon is a good negotiator. But that doesn't explain how he could convince a bank to lend him enough money to survive the winter...which he even admits he has no way of paying back at all.

[SeanF]

1,300 years of continued dynastic rule is cute. The Starks and Daynes were supposedly in power for 8,000 and 10,000 years, respectively. That be like the current rulers of Egypt being descended from the 1st Dynasty pharaohs and Iraq being ruled by descendants of Sargon, only those are both about half as far back as what's in the book. The only good explanation of this that I've seen is that their long histories are grossly exaggerated, and no dynastic house goes much further back than right before the Andal invasion, which wouldn't have occurred earlier than 2,000 years ago, not older as some claim.

Margaret Alison is the 31st Countess of Mar, in Scotland. The peerage dates back to 1014. Arguably, the family can trace their ancestry back another 2-300 years before that. There are some aristocratic Spanish families that can trace their ancestry back to Visigothic times. And, the current King of Spain is a distant descendant of Charles Martel.

[David Selig]

And the fact that we're told a few times about how the Watch is supposed to be cutting down trees (i.e. they have too many trees), and separately, that Braavos has no wood and has to import it at great cost, tells us that the Watch has something very valuable to the Braavosi that would function as a way to pay this off. It's not like the Watch has no commodity the Braavosi would be extremely interested in. This is kind of an answered prayer.

Wood is only expensive in Braavos because there aren't trees there and transporting it cost a lot. Transporting from halfway around the world doesn't make sense in a pre-industrial world which is heavily forested almost everywhere. Why not buy from the Vale, the Stormlands or the Southern parts of the North, which are like a 1000 miles closer? Or from somewhere in Essos.

Do the Watch even have the ability to process and transport to a port wood in large quantities? It doesn't seem so from what I recall.

Besides, the Watch is pretty much decimated at this point, it's facing a huge supernatural threat and also are a backing a claimant for the Throne whose odds aren't that good. Realistically speaking the odds of them making it to spring are pretty low, let alone being in any shape to pay back large loans.

[SeanF]

Hell no, I expect to be told how Jon manages to convince a banker that a decrepit institution that is no better than a penal colony, dependent on the rest of the country for everything and generating no money or food itself, can pay by a loan that would feed thousands of people for the entire winter, as well as borrowing their ships for a dangerous rescue mission. We don't need Tycho's POV because we have Jon's POV and he was there. It's not spoonfeeding to look at this:

Is that whom I serve? Jon Snow was no longer certain. “I can provide you with horses, provisions, guides, whatever is required to get you as far as Deepwood Motte. From there you will need to make your own way to Stannis.” And you may well find his head upon a spike. “There will be a price.”

“Price,” screamed Mormont’s raven. “Price, price.” “There is always a price, is there not?” The Braavosi smiled. “What does the Watch require?”

“Your ships, for a start. With their crews.”

“All three? How will I return to Braavos?”

“I only need them for a single voyage.”

“A hazardous voyage, I assume. For a start, you said?”

“We need a loan as well. Gold enough to keep us fed till spring. To buy food and hire ships to bring it to us.”

“Spring?” Tycho sighed. “It is not possible, my lord.”

What was it Stannis had said to him? You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Lord

Eddard father you on a fishwife? Perhaps he had at that.

It took the better part of an hour before the impossible became possible, and another hour before they could agree on terms.

and think 'That really doesn't make any sense at all'. This is a thread to talk about plot holes, right? Yet you're going to criticize me for point one out? Some people claim that timber rights explains all of this away, but it doesn't. The NW hasn't had enough people in centuries to clear away the encroaching forest, yet they are supposed to start this huge lumber operation? The only 'explanation' we're given is that Jon is a good negotiator. But that doesn't explain how he could convince a bank to lend him enough money to survive the winter...which he even admits he has no way of paying back at all.

But, leaving aside the question of wood, which hadn't occurred to me, we know that the Watch has legal title to thousands of square miles of land, the Gift and the New Gift. Presumably, Jon could have offered some of that as collateral for the loan. I don't think there's any need to stipulate the exact terms of the loan.

[butterbumps!]

and think 'That really doesn't make any sense at all'. This is a thread to talk about plot holes, right? Yet you're going to criticize me for point one out? Some people claim that timber rights explains all of this away, but it doesn't. The NW hasn't had enough people in centuries to clear away the encroaching forest, yet they are supposed to start this huge lumber operation?

In the spring! Jon talks about having to repay it in the spring. When clearing the forest is ostensibly easier.

And again, you're missing how the IB is looking to be paid back all the IT's loans, and has chosen to install Stannis as the means of getting back their investment. So they are investing in Stannis to improve his odds of winning, so that a victorious Stannis may honor the IT's outstanding debt. The Wall-- and specifically the Nightfort-- is Stannis' base of operations. They have strong motive to invest in that base of operations, given that they are trying to improve Stannis' odds. This is really the major point.

Wood is only expensive in Braavos because there aren't trees there and transporting it cost a lot. Transporting from halfway around the world doesn't make sense in a pre-industrial world which is heavily forested almost everywhere. Why not buy from the Vale, the Stormlands or the Southern parts of the North, which are like a 1000 miles closer? Or from somewhere in Essos.

Do the Watch even have the ability to process and transport to a port wood in large quantities? It doesn't seem so from what I recall.

Besides, the Watch is pretty much decimated at this point, it's facing a huge supernatural threat and also are a backing a claimant for the Throne whose odds aren't that good. Realistically speaking the odds of them making it to spring are pretty low, let alone being in any shape to pay back large loans.

Giving the Braavosi rights to the timber reserves beyond the Wall and in the Gift wouldn't require literally putting the Watch to work at this. The Braavosi have the means to ship, and could harvest it itself. Granting them foresting rights seems like a reasonable trade-off.

[sj4iy]

But, leaving aside the question of wood, which hadn't occurred to me, we know that the Watch has legal title to thousands of square miles of land, the Gift and the New Gift. Presumably, Jon could have offered some of that as collateral for the loan. I don't think there's any need to stipulate the exact terms of the loan.

Jon also points out that it was too simple to negotiate the loan, so I'm doubting that there was any real collateral involved. Anyway, my personal opinion isn't that we don't get the terms, it's that we get all the details of everything else BUT that, and it stands out as very strange. If Martin had a habit of skipping that sort of thing, I could understand. But he normally doesn't, which is why it stands out.

Anyway, it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the books, but it's simply one of those things that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I think many people fail to really scrutinize the books or don't like it when others do. Anyone who says that these long tomes have no real plot holes in them are letting their like of the books bias their opinion. That was mainly my point, really.

[dielsis]

The dagger used in the attempt on Bran's life. Littlefinger tells Cat it belongs to Tyrion, Tyrion is told as much at his trial or on the way there yet when he meets his father and makes it to KL, he never follows up on it. Instead of, you know, simply having Littlefinger beheaded on the spot for trying to get Tyrion killed.

This is addressed towards the beginning of ACOK. Tyrion is worried that LF is far too powerful for him to move against. He does recall having a very strained conversation with LF about the dagger.

The only person who could confirm that LF had said that the dagger was Tyrion's is Catelyn. And, she's now an enemy to the government in Kings Landing.

Tyrion, one of the most vindictive and petty people in the series, forgetting about Littlefinger's betrayal and lies to Cat, which directly led to an escalation of the WotfK and almost ended in Tyrion's death. No way. Even after he's given full powers to clean up the Small Council, the fact he doesn't immediately get rid of the guy who was caught red-handed accusing a Lannister is nothing less than a plot hole.

SeanF is right. Here:

“That’s a handsome knife as well.”

“Is it?” There was mischief in Littlefinger’s eyes. He drew the knife and glanced at it casually, as if he had never seen it before. “Valyrian steel, and a dragonbone hilt. A trifle plain, though. It’s yours, if you would like it.”

“Mine?” Tyrion gave him a long look. “No. I think not. Never mine.” He knows, the insolent wretch. He knows and he knows that I know, and he thinks that I cannot touch him.

...

But do I dare touch him? Tyrion wondered. Even if he is a traitor? He was not at all certain he could, least of all now, while the war raged. Given time, he could replace Littlefinger’s men with his own in key positions, but..

It certainly points to Joffrey as the originator, and Petyr seems to have just taken advantage of it.

[SeanF]

In the spring! Jon talks about having to repay it in the spring. When clearing the forest is ostensibly easier.

And again, you're missing how the IB is looking to be paid back all the IT's loans, and has chosen to install Stannis as the means of getting back their investment. So they are investing in Stannis to improve his odds of winning, so that a victorious Stannis may honor the IT's outstanding debt. The Wall-- and specifically the Nightfort-- is Stannis' base of operations. They have strong motive to invest in that base of operations, given that they are trying to improve Stannis' odds. This is really the major point.

Giving the Braavosi rights to the timber reserves beyond the Wall and in the Gift wouldn't require literally putting the Watch to work at this. The Braavosi have the means to ship, and could harvest it itself. Granting them foresting rights seems like a reasonable trade-off.

Added to which, we'll learn, they've agreed to loan Stannis enough money to hire 20,000 sellswords. I don't know how much money that amounts to, but it must be a hell of a lot. By comparison, lending enough money to enable a few thousand people at the wall to feed themselves for a few months would be chickenfeed. Why spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar?

[butterbumps!]

Anyone who says that these long tomes have no real plot holes in them are letting their like of the books bias their opinion. That was mainly my point, really.

The vast majority of what's been listed here aren't actually plot holes. Like, when a character takes a big risk, or makes a mistake, that's not a plot hole.

I guess the Tyrion-LF issue came up a lot, so for example, on that, we actually do get the reason Tyrion doesn't put LF's head on a spike. LF's good at getting money, so Tyrion puts the dagger issue aside in order to use his money-making skills, which Tyrion is in desperate need of. It's a "devil you know" situation.

Added to which, we'll learn, they've agreed to loan Stannis enough money to hire 20,000 sellswords. I don't know how much money that amounts to, but it must be a hell of a lot. By comparison, lending enough money to enable a few thousand people at the wall to feed themselves for a few months would be chickenfeed. Why spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar?

Exactly. The IB has strong reason to shore up Stannis' base, and the cost of that-- money for food-- is relatively quite small given the typical loans we see.

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

I don't know if it is really a plot hole, but I have always wondered why Catelyn and Ser Rodrik ride back to Winterfell after warning Ned in KL about the attacks on Bran. Catelyn is clearly worried about anther attempt on Bran's life and wants to get back fast, and also riding all that way with only Ser Rodrik to protect her. The excuse might be that Rodrik got so sick on the sailing down, but I just don't see that as more important than Bran's and Catelyn's safety.

[Lord Defiance]

This isn't real life. This is fiction. If I have to just 'accept' something because there's no reasonable explanation for it happening, then it's a plot hole. Some people keep saying 'It can't be a plot hole because I can come up with an explanation for it, no matter how tortured!', but that's not how it works. Anyone, with enough time and thought, can explain away ANYTHING...but that doesn't mean they're right or that it's still not a plot hole. People can act stupidly, but if it is not in their nature TO act stupid, then it's a plot hole. Like Doran...who has been described by others (and himself) as a great schemer and planner. Well, so far all of his schemes have gone to shit because they weren't very well thought out to begin with. If Martin doesn't have some reasonable explanation in the next books to prove that all of these terrible plans were part of a bigger, more masterful plan, then it's a plot hole.

I agree with the others about Balon, as well. He worked against his own best interests, and that's not the type of character he is.

I agree with you, a plot hole is a plot hole, but a lot of the things people have said here aren't really plot holes. The IB funding Jon could be a plot hole, but then again if they know the NW is the only thing preventing the WWs from coming... It's in their best interest to help them. Something the IT has been very stupid about.

[sj4iy]

The vast majority of what's been listed here aren't actually plot holes. Like, when a character takes a big risk, or makes a mistake, that's not a plot hole.

I guess the Tyrion-LF issue came up a lot, so for example, on that, we actually do get the reason Tyrion doesn't put LF's head on a spike. LF's good at getting money, so Tyrion puts the dagger issue aside in order to use his money-making skills, which Tyrion is in desperate need of. It's a "devil you know" situation.

Exactly. The IB has strong reason to shore up Stannis' base, and the cost of that-- money for food-- is relatively quite small given the typical loans we see.

If a character who isn't stupid acts stupid to further the plot, that's not good writing. I brought it up earlier, but why would Jon go after Ramsay Snow? It makes no sense. What could his plan possibly be? Why would he suddenly decide to go after Ramsay after he finds out his 'sister' has escaped from him...wasn't that what Jon wanted? What could Jon hope to do with a small group of Wildlings against Bolton's forces at Winterfell? I don't even know what his endgame was suppose to be, it just suddenly came out of nowhere and ended just as abruptly.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

If a character who isn't stupid acts stupid to further the plot, that's not good writing. I brought it up earlier, but why would Jon go after Ramsay Snow? It makes no sense. What could his plan possibly be? Why would he suddenly decide to go after Ramsay after he finds out his 'sister' has escaped from him...wasn't that what Jon wanted? What could Jon hope to do with a small group of Wildlings against Bolton's forces at Winterfell? I don't even know what his endgame was suppose to be, it just suddenly came out of nowhere and ended just as abruptly.

You can't call any of the Jon-Ramsay stuff a plot hole yet. The story is far from finished. Those are simply questions left unanswered until WoW.

[butterbumps!]

If a character who isn't stupid acts stupid to further the plot, that's not good writing. I brought it up earlier, but why would Jon go after Ramsay Snow? It makes no sense. What could his plan possibly be? Why would he suddenly decide to go after Ramsay after he finds out his 'sister' has escaped from him...wasn't that what Jon wanted? What could Jon hope to do with a small group of Wildlings against Bolton's forces at Winterfell? I don't even know what his endgame was suppose to be, it just suddenly came out of nowhere.

Instead of writing that off as a plot hole, why doesn't the fact that you believe Jon is too smart for that inspire you to think about whether he's playing a different game there? It's not like we don't see a slew of leaders presenting a facade publicly, only to realize they were playing a con (for example, Manderly's initial address to Davos).

On this particular issue, here's an alternative reading of that scene, from the perspective that Jon is too smart to march on Ramsay, and that there's more to what's going on. There's subsequent posts that go into it further.

This is kind of what I mean. When something doesn't seem to add up, I think it's up to us as readers to at least iterate through an explanation of what's going on from the viewpoint that it's not a plot hole before writing it off as a plot hole.

You can't call any of the Jon-Ramsay stuff a plot hole yet. The story is far from finished. Those are simply questions left unanswered until WoW.

I totally agree with this as well.

[Lord Defiance]

Littlefinger setting Tyrion up as the one who arranged to have Bran murdered. Tyrion knows Lf set him up yet never tells anyone.

Would it be that easy though? The only people that could testify were Robert, his knife and he's dead, Joffrey, who took the knife and he's dead, and Lady Stark, who was told by LF BUT is dead to everyone else but is really just murdering everyone that had a hand in the RW.

He doesn't have the evidence to prove it. At least that I remember. If he accused LF, that would not be a smart move on his part. He is already a dwarf, disliked by MANY, and people would probably see him trying to eliminate someone he "thought" was better than him.

As for Tywin not pressing why he was abducted, we know there is bad blood between the Lannisters and the Starks, so he could have assumed it was a strike at his house.

[sj4iy]

Instead of writing that off as a plot hole, why doesn't the fact that you believe Jon is too smart for that inspire you to think about whether he's playing a different game there? It's not like we don't see a slew of leaders presenting a facade publicly, only to realize they were playing a con (for example, Manderly's initial address to Davos).

On this particular issue, here's an alternative reading of that scene, from the perspective that Jon is too smart to march on Ramsay, and that there's more to what's going on. There's subsequent posts that go into it further.

This is kind of what I mean. When something doesn't seem to add up, I think it's up to us as readers to at least iterate through an explanation of what's going on from the viewpoint that it's not a plot hole before writing it off as a plot hole.

Yes, I've seen the various conspiracy theories. None of them make any more sense than the original plot did. I don't know who wrote the pink letter or what any of that was about, so I'm not going to venture a guess. But we see Jon's reaction and know why he's doing what he's doing, and it doesn't make sense. ADWD Jon isn't the type of person who simply abandons his post and his extremely important work at the Wall to go on some ridiculous suicide mission against the Wardens of the North armed only with a small group of Wildlings. Especially when Ramsay doesn't even have his sister anymore and he knows it.

[RainGhost]

If a character who isn't stupid acts stupid to further the plot, that's not good writing. I brought it up earlier, but why would Jon go after Ramsay Snow? It makes no sense. What could his plan possibly be? Why would he suddenly decide to go after Ramsay after he finds out his 'sister' has escaped from him...wasn't that what Jon wanted? What could Jon hope to do with a small group of Wildlings against Bolton's forces at Winterfell? I don't even know what his endgame was suppose to be, it just suddenly came out of nowhere and ended just as abruptly.

That one can be chalked up to rashness - Jon's still young remember and rashness does run in the Stark family. Not to mention, Ramsay threatened Jon's life and threatened to attack the NW, that's pretty serious. Plus, I think Jon wanted to kill Ramsay as soon as he heard about Arya but was able to control his emotions, this was just the final straw. A human reaction.

[Cas Stark]

Littlefinger setting Tyrion up as the one who arranged to have Bran murdered. Tyrion knows Lf set him up yet never tells anyone.

Would it be that easy though? The only people that could testify were Robert, his knife and he's dead, Joffrey, who took the knife and he's dead, and Lady Stark, who was told by LF BUT is dead to everyone else but is really just murdering everyone that had a hand in the RW.

He doesn't have the evidence to prove it. At least that I remember. If he accused LF, that would not be a smart move on his part. He is already a dwarf, disliked by MANY, and people would probably see him trying to eliminate someone he "thought" was better than him.

As for Tywin not pressing why he was abducted, we know there is bad blood between the Lannisters and the Starks, so he could have assumed it was a strike at his house.

It's a little plot holish that he wouldn't have told his father about LF setting him up. They may not have been able to get rid of LF at that time because they still needed him, but it would have put Tywin much more on guard about him and might have reduced the power that he gave him.

[butterbumps!]

Yes, I've seen the various conspiracy theories. None of them make any more sense than the original plot did. I don't know who wrote the pink letter or what any of that was about, so I'm not going to venture a guess. But we see Jon's reaction and know why he's doing what he's doing, and it doesn't make sense. ADWD Jon isn't the type of person who simply abandons his post and his extremely important work at the Wall to go on some ridiculous suicide mission against the Wardens of the North armed only with a small group of Wildlings. Especially when Ramsay doesn't even have his sister anymore and he knows it.

Um, that's not a conspiracy theory, and what I linked you doesn't have anything to do with the Pink Letter.

And yea, the fact that Jon knows Rams doesn't have Arya, and that we see him exhibiting knowledge about Northern warfare and explicitly sees sieges as categorically bad ideas, tells us that despite what he's telling the Shieldhall, he's not actually planning to march on Winterfell and lay siege.