Plot holes (Real ones, not things you don't like)

[Danelle]

Sansa, the future queen of westeros and Arya, the Hand's daughter, going to KL, where they were expected to stay for a long time, and they are escorted only by Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole.

I always found it odd that young highborn ladies, such as Alys Karstark, Wylla Manderly, any of the Mormont girls, weren't companions to Sansa and Arya.

Then again, the absence of highborn northern women, facilitates the plot:

Septa Mordane cannot control Arya. Jeyne Poole is just too insignificant for anyone to care for her, thus she is given to LF and she is later used as fake Arya.

Another thing that bothers me is Cat being unaware of Lysa's pregnancy and abortion.

[Cato.the.Elder]

A question for the forum to ponder: Are there in real world cases of companies or countries near bankruptcy but who keep on geting loans?

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/10/greece-raises-3bn-euro-successful-bond-sale

Sometimes we demand for a fictional world a kind of clock-wise behaviour that does not even exist in the real world.

-Characters being stupid, or desperate, or just making mistakes is not a plothole. Real people are stupid and commit mistakes, and even repeat them.

-Real life is full of coincidences, of unbelievable facts that would be criticized here as "plotholes"

[The Academic Wolf]

Plot holes:

Winter lasts for years and years - how does life survive?

Some houses have been around for multiple millenia without the name dying out? Stark for example, which is in real danger of getting wiped out at the moment, has been around for 8k years.

All life would not necessarily die out in a multi year winter. There have been winters that there is some evidence that they have lasted for decades, but life continued. Plants can grow in winter (not in large amounts, and not all, but some can) which animals can still eat. A multi year winter would not affect the seas that much either. I agree that it is not plausible, but if such weather has continued for millennia, then species would have adapted or died out by now.

As for the long reign of the dynasties- in real life, some dynasties have held onto their thrones for millennia, but in story, the reason why is explained- House names are fluid. Someone matrineally descended from the House, even if they have another Houses name, can take that House's name (i.e. the Hornwood suggestion). Look at it this way- if real royal/noble families did what aSoIaF dynasties do, then the current British royal family would be of the House of Wessex still (with the only break in the bloodline of said family, being in William the Conqueror, William Rufus, Henry I, and the pretender Stephen of Blois)- making the British royal family well over 1300 years old in that line, and even older (I think, Scottish history is not my thing) if we use the House of Mac Alpine.

[HexMachina]

Another thing that bothers me is Cat being unaware of Lysa's pregnancy and abortion.

I don't know. I can kind of understand this one. I don't have a sister myself, but it hardly seems like Lysa was pregnant for a long time, and people usually wait a while before telling about their pregnancy in my experience.

Or is it just a problem with Cat being so blind to it that you mean, rather than plot?

[David Selig]

It's a minor detail, but Ned's attitude regarding Bran's climbing obsession really bugs me. What kind of parent would tell his 6 year old (maybe younger) son "Son, since you want it so much, I am totally fine with you risking your life for hours every single day by climbing really tall walls and buildings where one slip-up means death or becoming a cripple. No biggie, just don't let your mother see you."

[SeanF]

All life would die in a multi-year winter.

Not necessarily, provided the winter isn't a desperate one.

You can grow plenty of winter vegetables, such as cabbage, squash, kale, potatoes, sprouts, parsnips etc. that woiuld not only keep the population alive, but also keep their livestock alive.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

It's impressive there's still no real plotholes in this thread, rather these are just issues of suspension of disbelief and perception.

ASOIAF is a massive and obscenely complicated series, yet there's not one real plotholes I've seen

:agree:

[Danelle]

I don't know. I can kind of understand this one. I don't have a sister myself, but it hardly seems like Lysa was pregnant for a long time, and people usually wait a while before telling about their pregnancy in my experience.

Or is it just a problem with Cat being so blind to it that you mean, rather than plot?

Well, the thing is that Cat and Lysa were very close.

Cat does seem to be a mother figure for her younger siblings as well.

She does seem to be quite perceptive at times.

What we know is that Lysa got pregnant after the duel between LF and Brandon.

We don't know exactly how it happenned, but perhaps Lysa's septa discovered that she was pregnant, or one of her maids and they told Hoster.

Or Lysa, realised that she was pregnant and immediately informed her father, perhaps hoping that this would convince him to acce pt LF as his son in law.

I guess that Hoster arranged the abortion in complete secrecy and threatened Lysa, not to tell anything to her sister.

But wouldn't Cat notice that something is going on? This means that for a while, perhaps for some days, she and Lysa were apart.

In her POV Cat only mentions that after they got married, they were excited that both of them were pregnant, but once it turned out that only Cat was pregnant, Lysa got depressed.

Then again, if Cat knew that Lysa had sex with LF and the consequences, she wouldn't have trusted him in GOT.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Plot holes:

Winter lasts for years and years - how does life survive?

Some houses have been around for multiple millenia without the name dying out? Stark for example, which is in real danger of getting wiped out at the moment, has been around for 8k years.

Why would the doom of Valyria affect fire-breathing dragons?

How the hell can the microscopic island nation of the Iron Islands ever hope to conquer all of Westeros with such a low population? Euron's delusional.

That being said, it was pretty hard coming up with more than the first one. Well done, GRRM!

The opposite of MaD Max of course. Cannibalism is a disgusting, yet an optional direction.

The Bold - - - :bang: :bang: ......Britain nearly made the entire map red in 200 years. So yes, it can happen, it did happen. Unless of course you are being sarcastic?

[Lord Defiance]

Robert's "assassination".

It's not that he died due to his recklessness and being a drunk, not even that Cersei eventually got him, but the timing is really, really convenient. And then Ned gets blamed for it? Ugh.

It's probably rather contrived than a plot hole. Still annoys me the most, though.

I believe it's mentioned somewhere that they planned on him having an accident at some point, through hunting or otherwise. it just happens that he had an accident with the boar.

Let's be honest, had a boar not mortally wounded him, Cersei could have had him killed another way.

[Lord Damian]

I'm going to start this off with an example:

In ACoK, when Theon is looking for Bran and Rickon after they "run away" it makes no sense for him to take Reek's advice and kill the miller's boys. He even thinks to himself earlier in the chapter that Bran and Rickon will get to a village and the whole North will rally around them. His reason for doing it is that he doesn't want to be laughed at, but when the Starks turn up, as he has no doubt they will, he'll be laughed at even more for trying to pass them off as dead. Also, he'll be seen as truly a monster then by the people he wants to win over.

It can slip past the reader b/c you see Bran in the crypts and know noone's going to find him there, but Theon doesn't know that.

If theon is ever stripped down below the waste, the laughing may commence anyway. Theon did not follow his conscience when he left the company of Robb to go home. He was basically a tool ever since.

[Kyoshi]

Arya travelling through the Riverlands during a hectic war without physical harm whatsoever. I was glad this was the way it happened. Don't get me wrong, I was super-super-glad she wasn't raped or got her hands and feet taken by the Goat or something like that, but it just didn't seem "realistic" in the context of the story. The Bloody Mummers even had a paedophile (he liked boys) and Arya was supposed to be a boy at the time...

I'll say it again, I'm super glad this plot hole was there though. I simply love Arya too much and I wouldn't wish such terrible things on anyone.

[Ser Eric]

Arya travelling through the Riverlands during a hectic war without physical harm whatsoever. I was glad this was the way it happened. Don't get me wrong, I was super-super-glad she wasn't raped or got her hands and feet taken by the Goat or something like that, but it just didn't seem "realistic" in the context of the story. The Bloody Mummers even had a paedophile (he liked boys) and Arya was supposed to be a boy at the time...

I'll say it again, I'm super glad this plot hole was there though. I simply love Arya too much and I wouldn't wish such terrible things on anyone.

That's not really a plot hole, more a convenient story line.

[Kyoshi]

^Maybe.

It's the same thing with how Dany and/or Khal Drogo's kos(?) didn't drag her back to Vaes Dothrak while she was still out of it. I'm glad this one didn't happen either but it seemed another case of "convenient story-telling"

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

There is the possibility that the Iron Bank thought they could perhaps strong-arm the realm into paying Jon's debt. I suppose they could have attacked the NW's, or threatened to, leaving the south unprotected. The threat of no NW could force some southerners to step up? Or KL? No idea.

Or the IB has more knowledge of what is really going on and sees Jon's cause as a worthy investment minus the risk?

I would venture that the Iron Bank lends to gain influence as much as it does wealth. You can tie the Iron Throne to your power by loaning to them, and by extension the Lords Paramount, but the Wall is completely independent of the realm.

Tying them to you through loans puts all of Westeros firmly under your sphere of influence as well as in your debt.

[JoeyBanana]

I believe it's mentioned somewhere that they planned on him having an accident at some point, through hunting or otherwise. it just happens that he had an accident with the boar.

Let's be honest, had a boar not mortally wounded him, Cersei could have had him killed another way.

I know. Again, the issue is not that Robert was killed or that Cersei was behind it, but the incredibly convenient timing so that the Lannisters can actually "win" and Ned can be blamed for it. I'll admit it's not a plothole really, and rather contrived to move along the plot. My biggest gripe is that we're supposed to believe it's Ned's fault. That's just ridiculous. Especially when we already know they planned for Robert's death long before Ned got involved.

[David Selig]

Arya travelling through the Riverlands during a hectic war without physical harm whatsoever. I was glad this was the way it happened. Don't get me wrong, I was super-super-glad she wasn't raped or got her hands and feet taken by the Goat or something like that, but it just didn't seem "realistic" in the context of the story. The Bloody Mummers even had a paedophile (he liked boys) and Arya was supposed to be a boy at the time...

I'll say it again, I'm super glad this plot hole was there though. I simply love Arya too much and I wouldn't wish such terrible things on anyone.

Not really a plothole. As horrible as the war was, most people in the Riverlands weren't physically harmed (if we don't count starving, which Arya went through too).

[Kyoshi]

Minor points that don't make all that much sense to me:-

1. Roose Bolton allowing Steelshanks Walton openly to escort Jaime to Kings Landing. He's openly betraying Robb at that point, despite marching to the Twins. Anyone could have sent a raven to Riverrun informing them of this. Wouldn't Roose secretly release Jaime?

2. When Roose takes Harrenhall, pretty Pia has her hair shaved off and is gang-raped. A few weeks later, she seems to have completely recovered from this ordeal, as she's "the sweet simple giggling girl" that Qyburn sends to sleep with Jaime.

:agree:

[Ser Eric]

I am not sure if this qualifies as a plot hole (probably not) but I've always disliked the Dany/Khal Drogo relationship. It's utterly ridiculous that Dany goes from being raped on a daily basis to suddenly 'loving' Khal Drogo. One of the reason why I dislike Dany's character a lot.

[Kyoshi]

I am not sure if this qualifies as a plot hole (probably not) but I've always disliked the Dany/Khal Drogo relationship. It's utterly ridiculous that Dany goes from being raped on a daily basis to suddenly 'loving' Khal Drogo. One of the reason why I dislike Dany's character a lot.

Stockholm Syndrome. IMHO.

Also, she made the best of what she had. The only other option was to live with bitterness and hatred towards a man she would be tied to for the rest of her life. I don't condone her feelings towards him but I certainly understand. See it a lot with women who have experienced domestic violence. It goes a lot deeper than the simple thing outsiders see: abuser and victim. Humans are more complex than that.