Plot holes (Real ones, not things you don't like)

[cxvb]

Which incident are you referring to here?

The dagger used in the attempt on Bran's life. Littlefinger tells Cat it belongs to Tyrion, Tyrion is told as much at his trial or on the way there yet when he meets his father and makes it to KL, he never follows up on it. Instead of, you know, simply having Littlefinger beheaded on the spot for trying to get Tyrion killed.

[Muggle]

How does Jon negotiate a loan with the most feared bank in the world when he has no assets or any way at all to pay it back?

This has been discussed at length. And I think the conclusion was. Jon sold the timber rights of the gift and tress north of the wall. As im sure your aware fire wood in Bravos is a huge import and lucrative business.

[sj4iy]

This has been discussed at length. And I think the conclusion was. Jon sold the timber rights of the gift and tress north of the wall. As im sure your aware fire wood in Bravos is a huge import and lucrative business.

If people have to make something up to try to explain it, then it's a plot hole.

In any case, the Night's Watch doesn't have the men to fell enough lumber to satisfy any loan the bank would give them. They don't even have enough men to clear back the encroaching forest.

[SeanF]

Littlefinger setting Tyrion up as the one who arranged to have Bran murdered. Tyrion knows Lf set him up yet never tells anyone.

This is addressed towards the beginning of ACOK. Tyrion is worried that LF is far too powerful for him to move against. He does recall having a very strained conversation with LF about the dagger.

The only person who could confirm that LF had said that the dagger was Tyrion's is Catelyn. And, she's now an enemy to the government in Kings Landing.

[Cas Stark]

I don't know if it's a "plot hole" but I thought it was weak to have Robb, who is portrayed as a natural leader with a gift for military strategy, for some unknown reason fail to tell Edmure what he wants him to do at Riverrun.

[JonSnow4President]

If people have to make something up to try to explain it, then it's a plot hole.

In any case, the Night's Watch doesn't have the men to fell enough lumber to satisfy any loan the bank would give them. They don't even have enough men to clear back the encroaching forest.

With 2 books left, I'm hesitant to call any new, unspecified in text agreement a plot hole.

As far as the men, they have a ton of mouths to feed, none of whom seem above cutting wood for food.

[HexMachina]

This is addressed towards the beginning of ACOK. Tyrion is worried that LF is far too powerful for him to move against. He does recall having a very strained conversation with LF about the dagger.

The only person who could confirm that LF had said that the dagger was Tyrion's is Catelyn. And, she's now an enemy to the government in Kings Landing.

I agree. From Tyrion's little monologue about that I took: If Littlefinger goes, the economy will collapse. I need time to replace his people with my own people, otherwise s*** will hit the fan and our already ravaged Kingdom will be in even more dire straits than it already is.

ETA:

I don't know if it's a "plot hole" but I thought it was weak to have Robb, who is portrayed as a natural leader with a gift for military strategy, for some unknown reason fail to tell Edmure what he wants him to do at Riverrun.

This always bugged me too. It may not be a plot hole, but it seems a terrible oversight not to tell Edmure his plans and expect Edmure not to attack Tywin as he crosses next to Riverrun.

[butterbumps!]

If people have to make something up to try to explain it, then it's a plot hole.

It's not a plot hole, and it's not made up. Here:

The Iron Bank loan Jon gets isn't a plothole.

In addition to the fact that the Gift is productive land and might be open for seizure, the Watch has a pretty major resource at its disposal: trees. The Braavosi heavily rely on importing wood for their ships, and the Watch is supposed to be cutting down all those trees near the Wall anyway. It kind of sorts itself out.

I'd also point out that the Braavosi banker is looking to invest in Stannis, and as of that point in time, the Wall is Stannis' base of locations. It's clear to anyone that Jon's a major asset to Stannis, at least in terms of enabling him to set up shop at the Wall, so helping Jon maintain the Wall through a loan helps secure the IB's investment in Stannis.

And, I guess, I wouldn't discount the possibility that Jon may have explained what was actually going on beyond the Wall. We're talking about a guy from Braavos, a nation founded to escape from sorcery and slavery, and which has bred its own brand of magic via the Faceless. They aren't strangers to magic, and might not summarily disbelieve what Jon might tell him. The whole issue of Others raising the dead as thralls would probably hit home in terms of the likeness to slavery.

In addition, by observing the inter-dependence between Jon and Stannis, investing in the Wall not only helps Stannis' odds at winning and paying everything back, but would also stand to reason that in the event the Watch defaults, Stannis might pay.

And the fact that we're told a few times about how the Watch is supposed to be cutting down trees (i.e. they have too many trees), and separately, that Braavos has no wood and has to import it at great cost, tells us that the Watch has something very valuable to the Braavosi that would function as a way to pay this off. It's not like the Watch has no commodity the Braavosi would be extremely interested in. This is kind of an answered prayer.

It sounds like Jon negotiated the repayment for spring, btw. So in spring, they can cut a shitton of trees and export it back. It seems pretty simple.

[Ser Eric]

The dagger used in the attempt on Bran's life. Littlefinger tells Cat it belongs to Tyrion, Tyrion is told as much at his trial or on the way there yet when he meets his father and makes it to KL, he never follows up on it. Instead of, you know, simply having Littlefinger beheaded on the spot for trying to get Tyrion killed.

Littlefinger setting Tyrion up as the one who arranged to have Bran murdered. Tyrion knows Lf set him up yet never tells anyone.

Good points. A probable plot hole.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

The Battle of Blackwater

Amphibious assaults are extremely costly. Assaulting fortified city walls without artillery is also extremely costly. Trying to do both at the same time is suicidal. Davos even saw the chain and thought about crossing the army out in the Bay, which would've been A MUCH BETTER IDEA. Instead, Stannis's entire plan centered around crossing his army in the worst place possible, with flaming arrows and trebuchet fire reigning down on his ships from defenders safe behind high walls. Stannis has been built up to be a tactical genius, but this battle plan was retarded. Added to that, Tyrion's battle plan was wholly dependent on Stannis making this horrible mistake.

George should have played more Medieval Total War.

Blame the idiot fleet leader Stannis assigned to the task. Davos even comments on this. The Mannis also knew the city's morale was pretty damn low and had no idea about the wildfire and colossus chain. It should of been a quick clean victory once boots hit the ground, but Loras & Garlen came to rescue.

[Talking Hodor]

Not necessarily, provided the winter isn't a desperate one.

You can grow plenty of winter vegetables, such as cabbage, squash, kale, potatoes, sprouts, parsnips etc. that woiuld not only keep the population alive, but also keep their livestock alive.

It's merely the beginning of winter, and Winterfell is practically buried in snow. Sorry, I don't see any vegetation or animals surviving that if it goes on for a decade (or a generation, as Old Nan mentioned).

Furthermore, a decade of summer would devastate the south. You'd have a desert wasteland with temperatures near water's boiling point after a while.

[sj4iy]

It's not a plot hole, and it's not made up. Here:

In addition, by observing the inter-dependence between Jon and Stannis, investing in the Wall not only helps Stannis' odds at winning and paying everything back, but would also stand to reason that in the event the Watch defaults, Stannis might pay.

And the fact that we're told a few times about how the Watch is supposed to be cutting down trees (i.e. they have too many trees), and separately, that Braavos has no wood and has to import it at great cost, tells us that the Watch has something very valuable to the Braavosi that would function as a way to pay this off. It's not like the Watch has no commodity the Braavosi would be extremely interested in. This is kind of an answered prayer.

It sounds like Jon negotiated the repayment for spring, btw. So in spring, they can cut a shitton of trees and export it back. It seems pretty simple.

Again, you're making up an explanation to explain something that is NOT AT ALL explained in the text. Just because you can do that doesn't mean that it's not a plot hole. Head canon does not equal 'explanation'. I could make up any reason at all to explain everything that someone would point out, but it doesn't make it true. Jon not only gets the loan, but he also gets the Braavosi ships for an extremely dangerous trip to Hardhome. None of that makes sense. Even if it was just the loan, there's no way that any banker would agree to risk their SHIPS for a mission in dangerous waters.

[Talking Hodor]

As for the long reign of the dynasties- in real life, some dynasties have held onto their thrones for millennia, but in story, the reason why is explained- House names are fluid. Someone matrineally descended from the House, even if they have another Houses name, can take that House's name (i.e. the Hornwood suggestion). Look at it this way- if real royal/noble families did what aSoIaF dynasties do, then the current British royal family would be of the House of Wessex still (with the only break in the bloodline of said family, being in William the Conqueror, William Rufus, Henry I, and the pretender Stephen of Blois)- making the British royal family well over 1300 years old in that line, and even older (I think, Scottish history is not my thing) if we use the House of Mac Alpine.

1,300 years of continued dynastic rule is cute. The Starks and Daynes were supposedly in power for 8,000 and 10,000 years, respectively. That be like the current rulers of Egypt being descended from the 1st Dynasty pharaohs and Iraq being ruled by descendants of Sargon, only those are both about half as far back as what's in the book. The only good explanation of this that I've seen is that their long histories are grossly exaggerated, and no dynastic house goes much further back than right before the Andal invasion, which wouldn't have occurred earlier than 2,000 years ago, not older as some claim.

[Ser Eric]

Again, you're making up an explanation to explain something that is NOT AT ALL explained in the text. Just because you can do that doesn't mean that it's not a plot hole. Head canon does not equal 'explanation'. I could make up any reason at all to explain everything that someone would point out, but it doesn't make it true. Jon not only gets the loan, but he also gets the Braavosi ships for an extremely dangerous trip to Hardhome. None of that makes sense. Even if it was just the loan, there's no way that any banker would agree to risk their SHIPS for a mission in dangerous waters.

So, basically you expect to be spoonfed every little bit of information. If that's not there then it's a plot hole. Christ almighty.

We don't have the the bankers PoV. We can only presume what he is thinking and what kind of investment he sees in this deal.

[SeanF]

Again, you're making up an explanation to explain something that is NOT AT ALL explained in the text. Just because you can do that doesn't mean that it's not a plot hole. Head canon does not equal 'explanation'. I could make up any reason at all to explain everything that someone would point out, but it doesn't make it true. Jon not only gets the loan, but he also gets the Braavosi ships for an extremely dangerous trip to Hardhome. None of that makes sense. Even if it was just the loan, there's no way that any banker would agree to risk their SHIPS for a mission in dangerous waters.

All we know is that Jon bargained hard with Tycho Nestoris. We don't know for certain what the terms of the bargain were, but we do know that both parties were somewhat dissatisfied.

That doesn't make it a plot hole. All that we're missing are the exact terms of the bargain that was struck.

[Talking Hodor]

The opposite of MaD Max of course. Cannibalism is a disgusting, yet an optional direction.

The Bold - - - :bang: :bang: ......Britain nearly made the entire map red in 200 years. So yes, it can happen, it did happen. Unless of course you are being sarcastic?

Britain was technologically superior to everyone they absorbed. They made citizens of the lands they ruled, and most of their administrative forces were indigenous. More importantly, they didn't rape and pillage their way across the world. The Iron Islanders are like Somali Pirates suddenly conquering the world.

[Talking Hodor]

Stockholm Syndrome. IMHO.

Also, she made the best of what she had. The only other option was to live with bitterness and hatred towards a man she would be tied to for the rest of her life. I don't condone her feelings towards him but I certainly understand. See it a lot with women who have experienced domestic violence. It goes a lot deeper than the simple thing outsiders see: abuser and victim. Humans are more complex than that.

He also started showing her a lot more respect once she learned how to give him mind-blowing sex. Nonetheless, Stockholm Syndrome is absolutely in play here.

[Cas Stark]

All we know is that Jon bargained hard with Tycho Nestoris. We don't know for certain what the terms of the bargain were, but we do know that both parties were somewhat dissatisfied.

That doesn't make it a plot hole. All that we're missing are the exact terms of the bargain that was struck.

That's how I looked at it. It seemed that the NW would have had control of enough natural resources and people that they could have struck some bargain. I didn't find it implausible on it's face that such a bargain could be struck.

[butterbumps!]

Again, you're making up an explanation to explain something that is NOT AT ALL explained in the text. Just because you can do that doesn't mean that it's not a plot hole. Head canon does not equal 'explanation'. I could make up any reason at all to explain everything that someone would point out, but it doesn't make it true. Jon not only gets the loan, but he also gets the Braavosi ships for an extremely dangerous trip to Hardhome. None of that makes sense. Even if it was just the loan, there's no way that anyone would agree to give up their SHIPS for a mission in dangerous waters.

No, it's called using common sense and critical thinking. When something doesn't seem to add up, instead of declaring it a plothole, maybe think it through (which applies to about 98% of the things listed in here as "plotholes")

1. We know that Braavos lacks a resource that the Watch is rich in. Martin has set up the idea that the Watch does have something of value to the Braavosi. So the idea that Braavos would do business with the Watch like this isn't insane, since we know the Watch has something Braavos wants.

2. Tycho would have to be blind, deaf and utterly moronic if he didn't understand the blisteringly obvious mutual dependence of Stannis and the Watch. The IB wants its money; they have chosen to invest in Stannis. Stannis' odds of winning-- and then paying back all of the money-- are much greater if he can maintain his base of operations, which is the Nightsfort, at the Wall. By investing in that base of operations, Tycho is investing in Stannis.

[SeanF]

That's how I looked at it. It seemed that the NW would have had control of enough natural resources and people that they could have struck some bargain. I didn't find it implausible on it's face that such a bargain could be struck.

I always assumed that taking treasures from the wildlings was in part, to discharge this debt. A loan to keep several thousand people fed over winter is going to be small change to the Iron Bank.