Casting News from San Diego

[Beric175]

I like how people can apparently shoot inside the Colosseum where people killed each other for the entertainment of others but you apparently can't shoot at a place where bullfighting happened...even though probably the public will not have access to the set and even though they will most likely not have a living animal killed. All of that because of rumours that noone can seemingly confirm...

And so, just because I'm in the mood, let me ruin Milo and Otis, the American re-cut of the Japanese film 'A Kitten's Story/The Adventures of Chatran', for anyone who likes that film. Lots of living cats were thrown off a cliff and animals were generally forced into situations that resulted in them getting hurt and in the footage that was cut out, which Lindsay Ellis (The Nostalgia Chick, whose reviews I suggest everyone check out, especially on LOTR) partly shows in her review of this awful piece of work, a young bear is actively fighting with a Pug, chases a cat up a tree, bites a cat's foot, a cat bing in a box on a river and then going over a waterfall (which is not something that could have naturally happened and be filmed from different angles, just saying). In fact a third of the 30 cats used as chatran in the Japanese film apparently did not survive the fall off that cliff, according to a japanese animal rights group. The American Humane Society's or any animal welfare group's (japanese or American) approval was not shown at the end of the credits of the American re-cut, and the only thing that showed up at the end of that film was: 'the animals used were filmed under strict supervision with the utmost concern for their handling'. This is not surprising given that in the japanese cut a Producer apparently broke a kitten's foot in order to make it look like the cat was unsteady on its feet.....

While I'm at it, in the 1939 film 'Jesse James' a horse was thrown off a cliff and broke its back, which is why rules are now in place to ensure that animals are not hurt on sets but so far the GOT show has not been abusive to any of its animals to my knowledge, be they horses, dogs or otherwise so I think we can say that they treat the animals well on set and I don't see how choosing a beautiful location is automatically the equivalent of endorsing what is a cruel and pointless 'entertainment'.

[Beric175]

The Aegon stuff wasn't as bad as the Tyrion-or-Cersei-and-Jaime-are-secret-Targaryens stuff I'll give you that. It was still what would be a cheap subplot from a soap opera, no matter how far ahead it was planned.

[Ran]

I like how people can apparently shoot inside the Colosseum where people killed each other for the entertainmen

That's ancient history. Osuna's bullring hosts bullfights every year. It's an active and current bloodsport.

Your list of atrocious behavior towards animals is not actually making any useful points. They are atrocious behavior. Repeatedly injuring a bull for sport is immoral. Filming in a place that was made for that sport, that is stil used for that sport, is a terrible idea.

I am sure that there are a number of closed bullrings in Spain that are no longer used. That would be an acceptable compromise.

Here's the sort of thing that goes on at a corrida in Osuna:

The bull was very aggressive against the horse but it was a bad kill, culminating in the assistant having to stab away repeatedly at the back of the bull’s head like a bloke twatting pop-up frogs at a fairground.

Disgusting. As I've said elsewhere, it's something that belongs to the past. It should not be supported in the here and now.

[Konradsmith]

Regardless, blood sport will continue with or without GoT's involvement. Though it isn't quite comparable to the torture in the bull ring, plenty of animals are killed for the show's sake, most notably rabbits and deer as in the Tywin skinning intro and the Meera and Osha rabbits scene. Compared to that, using a location that hosts blood sport is much less direct. Obviously there is less cruelty involved in the killing of game but still, the production already pays to have animals killed. As a meat-eater this has never concerned me, since the N.I. hunters would kill rabbits and deer whether or not HBO hired them to. In the same, Osuna will continue to host blood sport, which GoT's location choices would be unable to stop. Maybe HBO should act like moral exemplars in this situation and find another Daznak's Pit, but I really doubt they will. Whatever else can be said on the subject, the Osuna bullring looks the part.

It will be interesting however to see how Peter Dinklage, a prominent vegetarian, reacts to the location choice when he shoots a certain scene there...

[Ran]

The deer was brought in by a hunter who was going to be hunting anyways, yes. Bryan Cogman told me about it when I visited the set, in fact. I don't know whether the rabbits were wild game or not -- I suspect not. None of those animals were killed by deliberate, repeated stabbing over an extended period of time while a crowd looks on and cheers.

No one here is calling on people to go vegan. We're saying that the inhumane killing of animals, repeatedly injuring them before dispatching them (sometimes doing so poorly and necessitating the ugliness noted above) is not something that the show should be associated with, and I'm hopeful that the production is not actually considering it despite rumors to the contrary. As I said, there must be inactive bullrings in Spain that would serve.

[Konradsmith]

I don't care for bullfighting either. To me it's not too far removed from cat burning as nasty-European-animal-torturing traditions go. However, I don't expect HBO to act like anything other than an amoral company in this scenario. On top of that I don't expect Spain to abandon bullfighting as a pastime. With those two undesirable realities at hand, I accept their inevitable decision to shoot in Osuna.

(BTW, the Dragon Demands above example of Acocalypse Now featuring a real bull's slaughter by machete was a case more similar to the game-hunting example than the bull-fighting one. It was something Francis Ford Coppola had noticed some of the Filipino locals doing, so he filmed it and incorporated it into the movie. He captured it in one take, rather than demanding that it be repeated over and over).

[PatrickStormborn]

Regardless, blood sport will continue with or without GoT's involvement. Though it isn't quite comparable to the torture in the bull ring, plenty of animals are killed for the show's sake, most notably rabbits and deer as in the Tywin skinning intro and the Meera and Osha rabbits scene. Compared to that, using a location that hosts blood sport is much less direct. Obviously there is less cruelty involved in the killing of game but still, the production already pays to have animals killed. As a meat-eater this has never concerned me, since the N.I. hunters would kill rabbits and deer whether or not HBO hired them to. In the same, Osuna will continue to host blood sport, which GoT's location choices would be unable to stop. Maybe HBO should act like moral exemplars in this situation and find another Daznak's Pit, but I really doubt they will. Whatever else can be said on the subject, the Osuna bullring looks the part.

It will be interesting however to see how Peter Dinklage, a prominent vegetarian, reacts to the location choice when he shoots a certain scene there...

GoT increases tourism in the areas where it is filmed.

Do I need to say any more than that, honestly? Filming there will increase tourism to the bull ring, which is NOT acceptable at all.

[boojam]

I don't care for bullfighting either. To me it's not too far removed from cat burning as nasty-European-animal-torturing traditions go. However, I don't expect HBO to act like anything other than an amoral company in this scenario. On top of that I don't expect Spain to abandon bullfighting as a pastime. With those two undesirable realities at hand, I accept their inevitable decision to shoot in Osuna.

I have wondered if there are people who read accurate accounts of ancient history that include horrible accounts of all kinds of barbarism

(even tho worse happened in the 20th century) and say "this should never have been written , it is awful behavior!"?

I suppose there are, just look to the recent case of Mark Twain being censored because his prose replicated the actual conversational

language of the 19th century.

That just seems so stupidly out of whack to me.

[Ran]

Spain is in the process of abandoning bullfighting. In the last decade bullfights have fallen three fold in total number each year. Rings have closed. Catalonia has completely banned it. Others will follow. The sooner the better, of course.

I don't think you should talk about HBO as a corporation, however, because you're acting as if there's this faceless entity that makes the decision of where they film. Let me improve what you've written:

However, I don't expect HBO David Benioff, Dan Weiss, and Frank Doelger to act like anything other than an amoral company unethical people in this scenario.

The executive producers have final say on locations. If they want to use Osuna despite the ethical issues, then it is fair to say that they can be characterized as unethical.

[sj4iy]

It's not unethical to film in a location. That's simply ridiculous. No one would mind if they shot in a closed bullring. So as long as animals WERE killed there instead of ARE, that's apparently completely acceptable. It's the height if hypocrisy.

[PatrickStormborn]

It's not unethical to film in a location. That's simply ridiculous. No one would mind if they shot in a closed bullring. So as long as animals WERE killed there instead of ARE, that's apparently completely acceptable. It's the height if hypocrisy.

Promoting an active bullring is unethical.

[sj4iy]

Promoting an active bullring is unethical.

If they were promoting it. Filming in it isn't promoting it.

If they filmed in a church, would you say they were promoting religion? It's a false equivalency.

[Dragonstoned]

Just because posters tend to defend the showrunners from criticism of their creative decisions, writing etc. doesn't mean they have to defend the same people's choice of filming in an unethical location.

[Lord Hanna]

GoT increases tourism in the areas where it is filmed.

Do I need to say any more than that, honestly? Filming there will increase tourism to the bull ring, which is NOT acceptable at all.

So nobody should film anything in an area where they do something some people would consider bad?

No more filming in Africa, China, and most 3rd world countries, then...

Dumb logic.

[PatrickStormborn]

If they were promoting it. Filming in it isn't promoting it.

If they filmed in a church, would you say they were promoting religion? It's a false equivalency.

If they filmed in a church, I'd say they were promoting tourism to that church.

People are going to want to visit where Daznak's Pit was filmed (I certainly would), hence why it should not be in an active bullring.

[Beric175]

I say just because you use a location does not mean you are actively supporting whatever the place is being used for. Sometimes you use a location because that's the only one you are given access to or you might not think that people would think you were promoting a vile and useless 'sport', especially given that the scene that most likely will be shot there denounces animal cruelty in the ring and does not endorse it, and also because they are not actually hurting animals on screen here in the show. It can also happen that sometimes you choose a location without thinking through all the implications that this can have on how this might look to others.

I'm sure the main concern was 'lets get a beautiful-looking location that is kept in order and that is regularly cleaned so that we can show a beautiful new location in the show without having to renovate an abandoned place that might ot look as good in the end anyway' and despite how horrible the sport is, I have to say the building itself looks impressive on a photo. That does not automatically mean that I endorse bullfighting though but I can see why someone would want to use it a s a filming location. That's not endorsing animal cruelty in my opinion and if so, then my guess is it would be incidental to the filming because the people who go see animals getting killed in there during the bullfighting season will not be deterred by the show not filming there so what possible impact could it have other than people saying 'my that looks like a beautiful location'?

I can also say that most people who will be drawn to that place while they're filming there will most likely only go to see what's being filmed and so to say 'oh more people will watch bullfighting as a result of this': how do you know what other people think and why people try to sneak on set? Most people who see the location only on the show won't even know that it's a bullfighting ring or where it is.

The fact that they are most likely going to be filming a scene that has someone try to kill Drogon whom the audience roots for because they've seen him since birth is also not an endorsement of this kind of practice.

[FreeParking]

I thought we were talking about Aegon?

[Ran]

No more filming in Africa, China, and most 3rd world countries, then...

Dumb logic.

I vaguely remember straw man arguments like that in the 80s regarding South Africa. Funny, that.

Note that no one has an issue with filming in Spain. In fact, it's terrific. But one of the several locations they may use appears to be an actively used bullring, where bulls are basically tortured for sport before being killed, while it's entirely possible that they could find some other, ethical venue for their filming.

[Beric175]

Why do we show slaughterhouses in films then? The animals that are killed in slaughterhouses die in ways arguably much worse than in a bullring and it's just as pointless, since human beings can survive without eating meat and don't have to eat it. The only reason people eat meat is for the taste and they watch bullfighting for 'entertainment', neither being a good excuse.

[Ran]

You're perfectly right, Beric. Glad you've seen the light regarding the unethical use of an active bullring in which animal torture is presented as entertainment.