R+L=J v.95

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor

[Ygrain]

And here I wondered how come that the thread went seven pages overnight... :rolleyes: the same old, same old.

GRRM expressly says that Rhaegar had the right to command the KG, as well.

Hightower expressly proclaims loyalty to Aerys.

Ned expressly says that Dayne was a shining example of KG, the best that ever lived.

How are these consistent with the KG being oathbreakers to Aerys?

[stateofdissipation]

And here I wondered how come that the thread went seven pages overnight... :rolleyes: the same old, same old.

GRRM expressly says that Rhaegar had the right to command the KG, as well.

Hightower expressly proclaims loyalty to Aerys.

Ned expressly says that Dayne was a shining example of KG, the best that ever lived.

How are these consistent with the KG being oathbreakers to Aerys?

GRRM expressly says that Rhaegar had the right to command the KG, as well.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

The closest we get to Rhaegar comanding the kingsguard comes from Jamie.

The day had been windy when he said farwell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your grace," Jamie had pleaded, "Let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than our cousin Robert. He wants you close so Tywin can't harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jamie's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch, I am a knight of the kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," SerJon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak you promised to obey."aFfC-chapter page 133

Hightower expressly proclaims loyalty to Aerys.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.--aGoT page 409

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”--aGoT page 410

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”--aGoT page 410

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.--aGoT page 410

Implicitly proclaims would be accurate.

Ned expressly says that Dayne was a shining example of KG, the best that ever live

Dayne is mentioned by Ned:

1. at the Harrenhal tournament he is called "splendid"

Brandon fell to him(Rhaegar), and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Arthur Dayne, the Sword of morning --aGoT page 608 paperback

2. at the ToJ ge is called the Sword of Morning

Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning, had a smile on his lips. The hilt of the great-sword Dawn poked over his right shoulder--aGoT page 409

"Our knees do not bend easily" Said Arthur Dayne.--aGoT page 410.

"Then or now" Said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.--aGoT page410

"And now it begins." said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it in both hands.--aGoT page 410

3. In a story Ned tells Bran "finest knight"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star, They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then , and he would say no more,---aCoK page 332

How are these consistent with the KG being oathbreakers to Aerys?.

The first duty of the kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and to keep silent when it was not, serve at his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking; it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of a greater or lesser degree,and occasionally their lovers, mistresses and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard never far from their sides.

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, i would have no choice but to obey.--aDwD 857-858 paperback

[stateofdissipation]

Do you actually think that all Kingsguard were always asking a King whether they can protect Queen and other members of royal family. I don't remember Ser Arys Oakheart was said specifically by Joffrey to go and protect Myrcella... It seems that you are fishing here for some inconsistency, and you are grasping for a straw. I can believe that Arthur and Whent were there solely because of Rhaegar's friendship, but Hightower, that one always seemed as the man of the principles... Just remember what he said to Jaime... He would never have broken his vow to Aerys...

Hightower, that one always seemed as the man of the principles... Just remember what he said to Jaime... He would never have broken his vow to Aerys...

Instead , they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys' pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard had to do to prove himself innocent was... well, not burn.--aCoK 721

When the fire was blazing Brandon was brought in. His hands were chained behind his back, and around his neck was a wet leathern cord attached to a device the king had brought from Tyrosh. His legs were free though and his longsword was set down just out of his reach--aCoK 721

Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised... unless his son could free him. The more he struggled, the tighter the cord consrticted around his throat. In the end, he strangled himself.--aCoK 721

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."--Jamie Lannister-aCoK 721

[FrozenFire3]

And here I wondered how come that the thread went seven pages overnight... :rolleyes: the same old, same old.

GRRM expressly says that Rhaegar had the right to command the KG, as well.

Hightower expressly proclaims loyalty to Aerys.

Ned expressly says that Dayne was a shining example of KG, the best that ever lived.

How are these consistent with the KG being oathbreakers to Aerys?

^ This. Especially the bolded part which is way too often overlooked. Or ignored.

After two years on these boards, I'm still buffled by people rooting for their own preconceived idea of a "non-cliché tale" rather than letting the author guiding them through the ride (and deciding where to take HIS own story). Probably confusing literature with a *insert any team sport* match.

I can't help but think Martin is referring to that sort of reader when he says:

You hate to lose any reader, but it is going to happen, regardless. In a long series, readers who loved the early books may envision the story going in certain directions. Often those directions are wildly divergent. When the later books actually come out, some of those readers are inevitably going to be upset, because the story on the page does not correspond with the one in their heads. Others may be delighted. I have lost readers with every book, I am sure... but I've gained a lot more.

[stateofdissipation]

They stayed at the tower instead of going to Prince Viserys, the true heir to the throne,

If baby Jon was Rhaegar's bastard, he had no right to claim the Kingsguard vow.

Ned gave the 3 KG to go, go to Prince Viserys, for he is your King now, because Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon are dead. They refuse, because their King is not at Dragonstone, their King is in the tower.

Ned gave the 3 KG to go, go to Prince Viserys, for he is your King now, because Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon are dead. They refuse, because their King is not at Dragonstone, their King is in the tower.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”--Ned aGoT page 410

Rhaegar is not mentioned in the chapter. Aegon is not mentioned in the chapter. "King" Viserys is not mentioned in the chapter. A baby present at the ToJ is not in the chapter.

They stayed at the tower instead of going to Prince Viserys, the true heir to the throne,

If baby Jon was Rhaegar's bastard, he had no right to claim the Kingsguard vow.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.---aGoT page 410

He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--Ned aGoT page 607

The first duty of the kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and to keep silent when it was not, serve at his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking; it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of a greater or lesser degree,and occasionally their lovers, mistresses and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard never far from their sides

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, i would have no choice but to obey.--aDwD 857-858 paperback

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

[Alia of the knife]

Maybe, that had to take a lot of Aerys' character to change though. It's plausible that he felt the pressure of his rule was threatened, his royal army with low morale, and realizing that the rebels were winning.

Maybe a royal letter of accepting Rhaegar's marriage with Lyanna was sealed by Aerys, maybe that was the reason that Rhaegar finally agreed to come back to KL, and the reason for Hightower to proclaim the baby male as legitimate heir to the throne. That his, Whent and Dayne's Kingsguard vow was true to the end. The 3 Kingsguard did proclaim their loyalty to Aerys when Ned brought up about how Robert is now King.

Arguing? Oh!

I thought we were discussing? My apologies, I knew you weren't even responding anything positively to what I was saying and maybe to others too, before I came, but I guess, close mindedness is synonymous with the results of arguing, talking about you of course.

I think Aerys became desperate once he realized how far the rebellion had gotten and Tywin wasn't speaking to him.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I was recently looking at tKotLT..... to my recollection, and I havent been through every one - the Winterfell heart tree is the only weirwood that's described as 'laughing' (the one Lyanna played swords in front of presumably). Heart Trees are usually sad.

This same tree is also described as grim through Cat's POV, but the smiling description comes up in a Theon DwD chapter. Thought maybe it was a hint. Lyanna might have thought it laughed too.

She was a very tomboy. Rickon did not want her to play swords or play with arrows. She was his only daughter, and she had to be lady like. The heart tree outside of Winterfell was a sad then happy. I think it cried blood too.

[BearQueen87]

This may sound revolutionary but, "serve" might encompass "protect" and/or "obey."

I wonder if we will ever get any official information about what a "sworn shield" is and official duties, etc.

Also, it happened like this:

Rhaegar: Guards, make sure Lyanna doesn't leave this room until I come and get her.

Dayne: Not to leave the room... even if you come and get her.

Whent: [hiccups]

Rhaegar: No, no. *Until* I come and get her.

Hightower: Until you come and get him, we're not to enter the room.

Rhaegar: No, no, no. You *stay* in the room, and make sure *she* doesn't leave.

Dayne: And you'll come and get her.

Whent: [hiccups]

......

Excellent.

[BearQueen87]

I think Aerys became desperate once he realized how far the rebellion had gotten and Tywin wasn't speaking to him.

Yes. There is a line somewhere (too early, no coffee) about how Aerys came to realize that Robert Baratheon and his cause wasn't an ordinary uprising, that it was the first real threat since Daemon Blackfyre to House Targaryen

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Yes. There is a line somewhere (too early, no coffee) about how Aerys came to realize that Robert Baratheon and his cause wasn't an ordinary uprising, that it was the first real threat since Daemon Blackfyre to House Targaryen

It was too late when Jaime stabbed him in the back too with Lannisters.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes. There is a line somewhere (too early, no coffee) about how Aerys came to realize that Robert Baratheon and his cause wasn't an ordinary uprising, that it was the first real threat since Daemon Blackfyre to House Targaryen

I can help with that!

He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King’s Landing. Beneath Baelor’s Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

[Wmarshal]

GRRM expressly says that Rhaegar had the right to command the KG, as well.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

The closest we get to Rhaegar comanding the kingsguard comes from Jamie.

The day had been windy when he said farwell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your grace," Jamie had pleaded, "Let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than our cousin Robert. He wants you close so Tywin can't harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jamie's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch, I am a knight of the kingsguard."

"Then guard the king," SerJon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak you promised to obey."aFfC-chapter page 133

Hightower expressly proclaims loyalty to Aerys.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.--aGoT page 409

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”--aGoT page 410

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”--aGoT page 410

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.--aGoT page 410

Implicitly proclaims would be accurate.

Ned expressly says that Dayne was a shining example of KG, the best that ever live

Dayne is mentioned by Ned:

1. at the Harrenhal tournament he is called "splendid"

Brandon fell to him(Rhaegar), and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Arthur Dayne, the Sword of morning --aGoT page 608 paperback

2. at the ToJ ge is called the Sword of Morning

Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning, had a smile on his lips. The hilt of the great-sword Dawn poked over his right shoulder--aGoT page 409

"Our knees do not bend easily" Said Arthur Dayne.--aGoT page 410.

"Then or now" Said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.--aGoT page410

"And now it begins." said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it in both hands.--aGoT page 410

3. In a story Ned tells Bran "finest knight"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star, They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then , and he would say no more,---aCoK page 332

How are these consistent with the KG being oathbreakers to Aerys?.

The first duty of the kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and to keep silent when it was not, serve at his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking; it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of a greater or lesser degree,and occasionally their lovers, mistresses and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard never far from their sides.

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, i would have no choice but to obey.--aDwD 857-858 paperback

Thank you.

[MtnLion]

Quiet, Rhaegar ignited a war and Aerys had no trust in him.

And according to Barristan, they only obeyed the king.

If they do not follow their code once, what is to stop them from doing it again? If followed Rhaegar the oath could easily to be guard Lyanna.

And Ned knows this? Ned only knows about the Kingsguard Oath, referred to as their vow in the tower of joy scene. Ned thinks highly of these knights because they held to their oath and died for it. To protect and defend the king, and die for him if need be. No there is no other oath in play.

[sj4iy]

And by there vows they were not suppose to be there to begin with, but there they stand.

For a vow, one easily to Rhaegar to protect Lyanna, and how honorable, she was pregnant and need of protection. a specially with Robert on the throne.

And how did you come to this conclusion? You don't know what they were told.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Quiet, Rhaegar ignited a war and Aerys had no trust in him.

And according to Barristan, they only obeyed the king.

If they do not follow their code once, what is to stop them from doing it again? If followed Rhaegar the oath could easily to be guard Lyanna.

Zero trust, except to hand over the entire army. In your mind that is logical for a man who believes his son is trying to overthrow him to give him command of the Royal Army? You really are just trying to contradict people now. There is no thought behind what you're saying. One might call you a troll

[sj4iy]

That explains why Hightower didn't return to his king as soon as possible and defend him during a time of war.

And what if Hightower had been ordered by Aerys to hold Rhaegar's mistress/wife hostage to ensure Rhaegar's return? That is a very plausible scenario. We already know that Hightower was extremely loyal to Aerys. We know that he wasn't friends with Rhaegar. We know that he said that he would have killed Jaime for what he did to Aerys. Nothing you say makes any sense in terms of Hightower's actions. If Viserys were the King, then Hightower would have gone to him rather than die at the ToJ for no reason. If the three KG were traitors, Ned wouldn't think of them with such respect. Look at how he treats Jaime, even though Jaime killed the man who killed Ned's own father and brother. He wouldn't respect men who betrayed their king, even though it helped him win his war.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And what if Hightower had been ordered by Aerys to hold Rhaegar's mistress/wife hostage to ensure Rhaegar's return? That is a very plausible scenario. We already know that Hightower was extremely loyal to Aerys. We know that he wasn't friends with Rhaegar. We know that he said that he would have killed Jaime for what he did to Aerys. Nothing you say makes any sense in terms of Hightower's actions. If Viserys were the King, them Hightower would have gone to him rather than die at the ToJ for no reason.

Where is it stated that Hightower wasn't friends with Rhaegar?

And since when do they have to be friends for Hightower to follow an order of Rhaegar?

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Where is it stated that Hightower wasn't friends with Rhaegar?

And since when do they have to be friends for Hightower to follow an order of Rhaegar?

I think that's what he was trying to say.

[BearQueen87]

And what if Hightower had been ordered by Aerys to hold Rhaegar's mistress/wife hostage to ensure Rhaegar's return? That is a very plausible scenario. We already know that Hightower was extremely loyal to Aerys. We know that he wasn't friends with Rhaegar. We know that he said that he would have killed Jaime for what he did to Aerys. Nothing you say makes any sense in terms of Hightower's actions. If Viserys were the King, them Hightower would have gone to him rather than die at the ToJ for no reason.

Do you mean Hightower wasn't part of Rhaegar's inner circle, like say Dayne was?

But yes I agree with Rhaenys Targaryen, they don't need to be friends in order for Hightower to follow orders.