Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part V: ADWD

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Okay - so this came to me last night so bare with me if it sounds a bit crazy.

I was thinking about Dany's dragon dream where Drogon baths her in dragon fire to cleanse her and it occurred to me that Dany has been bath in fire twice. She was bath in fire in the pyre and later in the pit (not to the same extent) in both these instances she lost her hair and of course both instances were transformative.

Going back to her dream, the dragon bath her in dragon fire when she was at her weakest and the fire gave her the strength to continue. In the pyre Dany had lost her entire family and she was both emotionally and physically weaken. However, right before she steps into the pyre she is resolute having decided a course of action and after the pyre she had gained the dragons and strength as a leader. In the pit Dany was emotionally weakened but right before she steps onto the pit she has decided to take charge of her situation (takes off her floppy ears) afterwards she is physically weak but finds her strength again and feels resolve ("to go forward, I must got back").

Being the child of three might we see Dany bath in fire one more time?

I see it in two possibilities

Either one:

She has a third rebirth which mirrors many things in her story being in threes

Or

This is her final rebirth, closely mirroring the phases of the moon, meaning her first rebirth was from maid to mother(of dragons) and this one is from mother to crone. Which would still fulfil the symmetry of threes within her story, since she would have gone through the three phases of womanhood.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Okay - so this came to me last night so bare with me if it sounds a bit crazy.

I was thinking about Dany's dragon dream where Drogon baths her in dragon fire to cleanse her and it occurred to me that Dany has been bath in fire twice. She was bath in fire in the pyre and later in the pit (not to the same extent) in both these instances she lost her hair and of course both instances were transformative.

Going back to her dream, the dragon bath her in dragon fire when she was at her weakest and the fire gave her the strength to continue. In the pyre Dany had lost her entire family and she was both emotionally and physically weaken. However, right before she steps into the pyre she is resolute having decided a course of action and after the pyre she had gained the dragons and strength as a leader. In the pit Dany was emotionally weakened but right before she steps onto the pit she has decided to take charge of her situation (takes off her floppy ears) afterwards she is physically weak but finds her strength again and feels resolve ("to go forward, I must got back").

Being the child of three might we see Dany bath in fire one more time?

That makes sense. When GRRM was asked if Dany would be able to walk through fire again, like the pyre he said 'Probably not'. If that is not a vague and ambiguous answer then i don't know what is.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I was thinking more about the poisoning last night, so I was reading the Barristan and Victarion chapters after Dany X. And this is mentioned by Victarion, and since it is so close to the poison locust chapter I think it must be relevant. "Poison was for cravens, women and dornishmen."

Lol the problem is that we have all 3 of those in MEereen.

Women= GG aka The Harpy, missandei, irri, jhiqui

Dornishmen = Gerris and the other guy

cravens = hizzy, all the slavers, all the ghiscari old blood

[BearQueen87]

Or

This is her final rebirth, closely mirroring the phases of the moon, meaning her first rebirth was from maid to mother(of dragons) and this one is from mother to crone. Which would still fulfil the symmetry of threes within her story, since she would have gone through the three phases of womanhood.

I agree with this. I think from WOW to the end of the series, 7 or 8 books who knows, we're going to see "the real Dany." The person she was always meant to become. She had to undergo each of these trial by fires in order to get to this point, but from here on out, I think she knows who she is and what she needs to do to get things done. This idea will play a huge part in her vision on the Dothraki Sea, so more on that in a few chapters.

I was thinking more about the poisoning last night, so I was reading the Barristan and Victarion chapters after Dany X. And this is mentioned by Victarion, and since it is so close to the poison locust chapter I think it must be relevant. "Poison was for cravens, women and dornishmen."

Lol the problem is that we have all 3 of those in MEereen.

Women= GG aka The Harpy, missandei, irri, jhiqui

Dornishmen = Gerris and the other guy

cravens = hizzy, all the slavers, all the ghiscari old blood

Nice catch! Of those three I'd eliminate the Dornishmen. They seem pretty loyal to Quentyn and wouldn't do anything unless expressly asked and I don't think Quentyn has it in him to poison Dany, for whatever reason.

[Nictarion]

I was thinking more about the poisoning last night, so I was reading the Barristan and Victarion chapters after Dany X. And this is mentioned by Victarion, and since it is so close to the poison locust chapter I think it must be relevant. "Poison was for cravens, women and dornishmen."

Lol the problem is that we have all 3 of those in MEereen.

Women= GG aka The Harpy, missandei, irri, jhiqui

Dornishmen = Gerris and the other guy

cravens = hizzy, all the slavers, all the ghiscari old blood

The Shavepate isn't any of those things. I've never really bought into that theory.

[Parwan]

I was thinking more about the poisoning last night, so I was reading the Barristan and Victarion chapters after Dany X. And this is mentioned by Victarion, and since it is so close to the poison locust chapter I think it must be relevant. "Poison was for cravens, women and dornishmen."

Lol the problem is that we have all 3 of those in MEereen.

Women= GG aka The Harpy, missandei, irri, jhiqui

Dornishmen = Gerris and the other guy

cravens = hizzy, all the slavers, all the ghiscari old blood

We have similar situations in the text when the issue of poisoning comes up. They relate to attitudes in Westeros. When Lord Eddard and Grand Maester Pycelle are discussing the death of Jon Arryn, Eddard says, “I have heard it said that poison is a woman’s weapon.” Pycelle replies, “It is said. Women, cravens…and eunuchs.” When Joffrey dies, the main suspect is “a twisted little monkey demon.” A young woman is suspected of taking part in the crime. A Dornishman becomes his champion. Prince Oberyn tells Tyrion that, had the Imp not been charged with the murder, the Red Viper might well have been the accused. We readers know that Lord Arryn was poisoned by his wife and that it was actually an old woman who was responsible for putting the bad stuff in Joff’s drink.

Victarion Greyjoy speculates that his hand is not getting better because someone is interfering with the healing process. His formulation is “cravens, women, and Dornishmen.” If we think his situation parallels the ones above, then the perpetrator would seem to be the dusky woman. Not surprisingly, this thought does not occur to the captain, even though “Euron’s gifts are poisoned.” Victarion is suspicious of the young maester. The fellow is cowardly, but it’s not clear what his motivation for poisoning his captain would be. Not so with the dusky woman. She may be working with the warlocks, Euron, or both. They might be fine with getting rid of the younger Greyjoy brother after the dragons are secured.

Again looking for parallels, the main suspect in the locust matter would be the Green Grace. However, we need not accept this interpretation. Perhaps the three categories should be seen as indicating the three people who will be accused of the crime. Skahaz accuses Hizdahr. Hizdahr accuses Quentyn and his friends. No one directly says that the GG is responsible for the locusts. However, the Shavepate tells Barristan, “She may be conspiring with the Yunkai’i even as we sit here.” The Widower asks, “And when the Yunkai’i send back the old woman to spit in your eye, what then?”

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

4. Speaking of Dany, no one knows where she is. The rumors about Dany post-flight from the pit are numerous. Some say she is dead in the Dothraki Sea, some believe she flew away on dragon back and lives, some claim she died by a crossbow and fell into the gutter with other bodies. Tyrion points out that no body was found. Also, Tyrion did not see the dragon himself, something that’s a bit sad given that one of the first things we learned about Tyrion was that he has always wanted to see and fly on the back of a dragon.

Finally caught up with this chapter!

Very great analysis :) don't have much to add, you covered the aspects of slavery eloquently.

I wanted to comment on the rumours of Dany's death. I believe they play a role as a metaphoric death for her, the readers know she's alive but many of the characters in the book think she is dead. Based on the last Dany chapter we can say the Dany in Meereen at this moment has metaphorically died and is a bout to be reborn again.

Also these rumours also show us how information can change when passed through second hand observation, and is viewed in different perspectives. This is also a constant theme the author has bring bringing up and I believe it can relate to prophecies as well, such as AA, where Mel has a different view and Ben has his own view and just like the rumours of Dany I don't think any of the AA prophecies are accurate since they are both second hand information.

[BearQueen87]

Finally caught up with this chapter!

Very great analysis :) don't have much to add, you covered the aspects of slavery eloquently.

Thanks!

Also these rumours also show us how information can change when passed through second hand observation, and is viewed in different perspectives. This is also a constant theme the author has bring bringing up and I believe it can relate to prophecies as well, such as AA, where Mel has a different view and Ben has his own view and just like the rumours of Dany I don't think any of the AA prophecies are accurate since they are both second hand information.

Good point! We all shape what we hear or see or read based on who we are as individuals. Think back to Tyrion's chapter when he's in Volantis with Jorah. Dany is simultaneously a crazy queen who bathes in blood, the Messiah to the Red Priests, and the Liberator of the Slaves.

[Drogonthedread]

my first post so forgive me if my english is bad

you guys are doing a great job here and i love all your views on Danny and it makes me happy to see that i am not the only one who enjoyed Daenerys chapters in ADWD.

i want to add two things to this conversation . first Melisandre sees in fire a clear blue sky and a winged shadows in her chapter and Danny's pit chapter start with a mention of sky appearing blue with no cloud and ends with Drogon returning .

second i want to talk about Drogon returning . do you guys believe that author deliberately downplays this bond with the raider and dragon because this Drogon returning and Sunfyre returning to Aegon can easily be written as the Dragon sensing that their riders are in need of them and returning .but instead he makes the readers doubt about their return

i think this is mainly because of the author trying to differ from other Fantasy works.what do you guys think about think can this be a reason

[MoIaF]

I see it in two possibilities

Either one:

She has a third rebirth which mirrors many things in her story being in threes

Or

This is her final rebirth, closely mirroring the phases of the moon, meaning her first rebirth was from maid to mother(of dragons) and this one is from mother to crone. Which would still fulfil the symmetry of threes within her story, since she would have gone through the three phases of womanhood.

I agree with this. I think from WOW to the end of the series, 7 or 8 books who knows, we're going to see "the real Dany." The person she was always meant to become. She had to undergo each of these trial by fires in order to get to this point, but from here on out, I think she knows who she is and what she needs to do to get things done. This idea will play a huge part in her vision on the Dothraki Sea, so more on that in a few chapters.

While I agree that Dany will be much wiser given her experience in Slaver's Bay, I'm unsure of whether or not she'll have learned all her lessons or understand how to control her dragon now that she has embraced it.

I think her time in Westeros especially after her arrival will also be an important learning experience. That is, she'll go to Westeros to claim the Iron Throne, however, the events of Winter will change whatever plans she has. To rule in Slaver's Bay won't be the same as ruling in Westeros, very different environment and politics.

The locusts to me.point at

1) The poisoner did not know Daenerys well, and thus was not close to her. This rules out people like Hizdhar, Reznak and Galazza and Skahaz. Admittedly, this narrows down the candidates significantly but leaves people.with flimsy motivations. The candidates (imo) for this scenario:

a) House Pahl - wanting revenge against Dany

B) The Yunkai'i who have come to celebrate the peace. They hate everything Dany stands for

c) Bloodbeard - he wants war, he wants to sack and plunder Meereen. We see in the first Barristan chapter that he will do whatever he can.to provoke war. If Dany is poisoned, the Meereenese will likepy retaliate against the Yunkai'i.

d) The Tattered Prince. He wants Pentos, and needs to ally with Dany to get it. The poison may not have been.potent enough to kill Dany, and a botched attempt could lead her to seek an alliance with him. This one is probably the most flimsy idea.

2) The poison was not intended for Dany. That meams it could be intended for anyone.else in the box - with Hizdhar being.the most likely. The only.candidate I can think of here is Skahaz. Or perhaps Arch and Drink, without Quentyn's knowledge. With Hizdhar's death, Dany would be free to marry Quentyn.

3) The poisoner did not want Dany to eat many of the locusts. The poison was not too powerful - a full bowl of locusts only managed to make Strong Belwas sick. A full bowl would.probably kill the much smaller Dany, yes, but there is.no way that Dany would ever have eaten the full bowl. Therefore, we might specualte that death was not the intended outcome. Why else would someone poison Dany, with an unknown poison that causes problems in the abdomen area? Well, Dany had sex with Daario until she married Hizdhar, and so the "poison" may have been an.abortificant. Thus, the paternity of any child she bore could be called into question. We learn.in Dany X that she has not had her period in some time. If someone.noticed this and reported it (e.g. her cupbearers) then.certain parties may fear she is pregnant with Daario's child. Candidates under this would be:

a) Hizdhar - nobody wants to be cuckolded.

B) Reznak - serving Hizdhar

c) Galazza Galare, the Green Grace. She pushes for Dany to marry Hizdhar and obviously does not want a sellsword's son as her future King. She wants a Harpy. In addition, her relative is one of Dany's cupbearers and would possibly be aware of such things as Dany not having her period.

Really interesting and thoughtful out analysis Helena. :D

I would say that the thing that stands out the most to me is that the poison probably wasn't strong enough to kill anyone.

Had it been meant for Dany, a woman her size would never have eaten more than a few of them and if it had been meant for Hizzy, he large enough that had he eaten a couple of hand fulls of it it would have not killed him either. Whatever it was meant for, it wasn't meant to kill.

The idea of an abortifacient is quite intriguing and plausible. As we had discussed previously Dany was very indiscreet about her relationship with Daario. It did not take a genius to assume that they were having relations and thus the possibility of Dany becoming pregnant with his child was high.

There is also the question of access. The king and his people would not have let the Brazen Beasts anywhere near the royal box. Would the BBs have access to Hizdahr's confectioner? I don't know.

I think this is a very important thing to consider and it can narrow down the number of people who would have sufficient access to poison the locusts.

I was thinking more about the poisoning last night, so I was reading the Barristan and Victarion chapters after Dany X. And this is mentioned by Victarion, and since it is so close to the poison locust chapter I think it must be relevant. "Poison was for cravens, women and dornishmen."

Lol the problem is that we have all 3 of those in MEereen.

Women= GG aka The Harpy, missandei, irri, jhiqui

Dornishmen = Gerris and the other guy

cravens = hizzy, all the slavers, all the ghiscari old blood

Great pick up Suzanne!

It's difficult to decipher who might have done it (it's such a game of Clue). Although with Helena's analysis and this find it seems more plausible that it was in fact the Green Grace who tried to poison Dany.

We have similar situations in the text when the issue of poisoning comes up. They relate to attitudes in Westeros. When Lord Eddard and Grand Maester Pycelle are discussing the death of Jon Arryn, Eddard says, “I have heard it said that poison is a woman’s weapon.” Pycelle replies, “It is said. Women, cravens…and eunuchs.” When Joffrey dies, the main suspect is “a twisted little monkey demon.” A young woman is suspected of taking part in the crime. A Dornishman becomes his champion. Prince Oberyn tells Tyrion that, had the Imp not been charged with the murder, the Red Viper might well have been the accused. We readers know that Lord Arryn was poisoned by his wife and that it was actually an old woman who was responsible for putting the bad stuff in Joff’s drink.

Victarion Greyjoy speculates that his hand is not getting better because someone is interfering with the healing process. His formulation is “cravens, women, and Dornishmen.” If we think his situation parallels the ones above, then the perpetrator would seem to be the dusky woman. Not surprisingly, this thought does not occur to the captain, even though “Euron’s gifts are poisoned.” Victarion is suspicious of the young maester. The fellow is cowardly, but it’s not clear what his motivation for poisoning his captain would be. Not so with the dusky woman. She may be working with the warlocks, Euron, or both. They might be fine with getting rid of the younger Greyjoy brother after the dragons are secured.

Again looking for parallels, the main suspect in the locust matter would be the Green Grace. However, we need not accept this interpretation. Perhaps the three categories should be seen as indicating the three people who will be accused of the crime. Skahaz accuses Hizdahr. Hizdahr accuses Quentyn and his friends. No one directly says that the GG is responsible for the locusts. However, the Shavepate tells Barristan, “She may be conspiring with the Yunkai’i even as we sit here.” The Widower asks, “And when the Yunkai’i send back the old woman to spit in your eye, what then?”

I agree with you we don't have to believe it was the Green Grace, however, of the three instances you mention we know with almost certainty that the first two were indeed perpetrated by a woman.

[MoIaF]

my first post so forgive me if my english is bad

you guys are doing a great job here and i love all your views on Danny and it makes me happy to see that i am not the only one who enjoyed Daenerys chapters in ADWD.

i want to add two things to this conversation . first Melisandre sees in fire a clear blue sky and a winged shadows in her chapter and Danny's pit chapter start with a mention of sky appearing blue with no cloud and ends with Drogon returning .

second i want to talk about Drogon returning . do you guys believe that author deliberately downplays this bond with the raider and dragon because this Drogon returning and Sunfyre returning to Aegon can easily be written as the Dragon sensing that their riders are in need of them and returning .but instead he makes the readers doubt about their return

i think this is mainly because of the author trying to differ from other Fantasy works.what do you guys think about think can this be a reason

Welcome to the board and the re-read!

I think the bond between a rider and it's dragon is very different than wargining which is the other human/animal bond we see in the series.

With a rider and dragon the bond might takes more time to form because both parties have to be in "agreement". You can't just go in and ride a dragon, they need to accept you as their rider.

However, as we have been discussing Dany's bond with Drogon was there otherwise why would he show up at the pit when Dany was most in need of her dragon. That is, he must have been flying for a while in order to get to the pit when he did.

[MoIaF]

I meant to put this in my original comments on the chapter, but Drogon coming to Dany because she is in need of him is similar to Sunfyre flying to Dragonstone in order to be with Aegon II. IMO, Dany was already bonded with Drogon before she flew him (just like there were Targ ls during the Dance who bonded before they had flown - e.g. Jaehaera, Jaehaerys, Aegon III) and this link brought Drogon to the Pit when she was in need.

ETA: We also know eggs were sometimes given to Targs in the cradle to bond with. I imagine Dany's particular connection to Drogon rather than Viserion and Rhaegal stems from this. Can someone remind me, is it Drogon's egg she holds when she first wakes from her fever after giving.birth?

It's not. It's the white and gold one.

I wonder about Dany's bond with Viserion. He's the dragon that was forming the ouroboros sign around the pear tree.

"The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail."

I should also note that to the Chinese the Pear Tree symbolizes immortality. Viserion was formed as an ouroboros. Ouroboros is described as:

The Ouroboros often symbolizes self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things such as the phoenix which operate in cycles that begin anew as soon as they end. It can also represent the idea of primordial unity related to something existing in or persisting from the beginning with such force or qualities it cannot be extinguished.

As we were discussing last week distraction and creation are two sides of the same coin and I see the element of fire representative of that. As mentioned above the Phoenix is an excellent representation of the element of fire.

[HexMachina]

Really interesting and thoughtful out analysis Helena. :D

I would say that the thing that stands out the most to me is that the poison probably wasn't strong enough to kill anyone.

Had it been meant for Dany, a woman her size would never have eaten more than a few of them and if it had been meant for Hizzy, he large enough that had he eaten a couple of hand fulls of it it would have not killed him either. Whatever it was meant for, it wasn't meant to kill.

The idea of an abortifacient is quite intriguing and plausible. As we had discussed previously Dany was very indiscreet about her relationship with Daario. It did not take a genius to assume that they were having relations and thus the possibility of Dany becoming pregnant with his child was high.

Yes. There was his display in the Court that time for example. And Hizdhar certainly knows, which may possibly lend credence to the idea the posion was intended to abort her potential child (remember she also refused to have herself inspected, so the Green Grace and others could not be absolutely sure that Dany was not carrying a child (which, incidentally, she probably was)

This is a quote from Hizdhar in relation to Daario:

"Lust? You dare speak to me of lust?" The King's mouth twisted in anger. "I lusted after the crown, aye...but not half so much as she lusted after her sellsword. Perhaps it was her precious captain who tried to poison her, for putting him aside."

He is obviously well aware of Dany and Daario's liaisons, and there seems to be a hint of jealousy there too.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Tyrion XII

This chapter begins with Tyrion joining the Second Sons. He is forced to sign a large stack of IOU’s before they will accept him. The IOU’s range from very low to the last one being 100,000 gold dragons to BBP personally. Tyrion cringes and makes jokes the whole time, my guess is that these parchments will come back later to bite him in the ass. ‘One day he might rue these signatures. But not this day.’ He has no choice but to sign the documents, as the Second Sons are threatening to turn him in as an escaped slave.

Brown Ben Plumm warns Tyrion not to be seen by anyone if he can help it, that some people will still recognize him for an escaped slave, so he must remain incognito. On the last scroll (made of sheepskin), BBP asks Tyrion to pay him 100K, 50 hides of fertile land, a castle, and a lordship. (If BBP somehow manages to ride a dragon his acceptance in Westeros will go over much smoother.)

Penny is constantly reluctant and needs everything explained to her like a baby. Tyrion placates her to keep her happy, but she annoys me big time! He talks her into coming to get fitted for armor, and does not yet tell her that her beloved dog and pig are dead, to keep her from depression, but he does tell her later when she needs some reality. Tyrion strikes up a conversation with a boy from flea bottom, and when the boy asks what Tyrion misses most, his 1^st thought is, Jaime. Which is a good sign for Tyrion, considering all his loathing for his entire family, at least he will probably forgive Jaime eventually.

When Tyrion goes to get outfitted for his armor, the armor and weapons are piled high in several big wayns, which Tyrion and penny are expected to dig through. ‘Tyrion took one look and sighed, remembering the gleaming racks of swords and spears and halberds in the armory of the Lannisters below Casterly Rock. “This may take a while he declared.” There are a few examples in this chapter comparing the sellsword company to Westeros, IMO this is foreshadowing that this company will indeed be travelling there eventually.

Jorah, at least, is fairing better than he was at Yezzan’s; ‘He looks every inch a sellsword and not at all like the half-broken thing we took from Yezzan’s cage, Tyrion reflected.’ Of course now he will carry the tattoo on his face for the rest of his life, a mark to show he is a dangerous and disobedient slave (there’s no better kind).

Tyrion reflects on their situation as Penny talks about how they should not have left Yezzan’s camp. Penny says it was not that bad, Tyrion still has a big problem with being a slave, even if it is a slave for someone like Yezzan who treats them better than other slavers. “They could be bought and sold, whipped and branded, used for the carnal pleasure of their owners, bred to make more slaves. In that sense they were no more than dogs or horses. But most lords treated their dogs and horses well enough. Proud men might shout that they would sooner die free than live as slaves, but pride was cheap. When steel struck flint, such men were rare as dragon’s teeth; elsewise the world would not have so many slaves. There has never been a slave that did not choose to be a slave, the dwarf reflected. Their choice may be between bondage and death, but the choice is always there.”

I agree with what Tyrion is saying, there is always a choice, but there is always hope as well. Just because you are bound as a slave does not mean you will never be free, If you kill yourself then you will never know. Having to make choices like that show how terrible slavery is, and how all this in Slaver’s Bay must be stopped.

At the end of the chapter, Jorah finally speaks up, and I love his attitude; “We are all like to be feeding worms by the time this battle is done. The Yunkai’i have lost this war, though it may take them some time to know it. Meereen has an army of Unsullied infantry, the finest in the world. And Meereen has dragons. Three of them, once the queen returns. She will. She must. Our side consists of two score Yunkish lordlings, each with his own half-trained monkey men. Slaves on stilts, slaves in chains…..they may have troops of blind men and palsied children too, I would not put it past them.”

Loving Jorah’s sentiments here, he is right on the money with his summary of the Yunkai, it’s exactly what I have been saying, the Yunkish are nancy boys, none of them have the stuff of real fighters, they trample each other to get away from dragons, and have all slave-soldiers surrounding them, no loyalty, no resolve, IMO Dany’s armies will wipe the floor with these guys when it comes to it.

Tyrion replies to Jorah with one of the best things he has said since coming to Meereen; “Oh I know,” said Tyrion. “The Second Sons are on the losing side. They need to turn their cloaks again and do it now.” He grinned. “Leave that to me.”

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We have similar situations in the text when the issue of poisoning comes up. They relate to attitudes in Westeros. When Lord Eddard and Grand Maester Pycelle are discussing the death of Jon Arryn, Eddard says, “I have heard it said that poison is a woman’s weapon.” Pycelle replies, “It is said. Women, cravens…and eunuchs.” When Joffrey dies, the main suspect is “a twisted little monkey demon.” A young woman is suspected of taking part in the crime. A Dornishman becomes his champion. Prince Oberyn tells Tyrion that, had the Imp not been charged with the murder, the Red Viper might well have been the accused. We readers know that Lord Arryn was poisoned by his wife and that it was actually an old woman who was responsible for putting the bad stuff in Joff’s drink.

Victarion Greyjoy speculates that his hand is not getting better because someone is interfering with the healing process. His formulation is “cravens, women, and Dornishmen.” If we think his situation parallels the ones above, then the perpetrator would seem to be the dusky woman. Not surprisingly, this thought does not occur to the captain, even though “Euron’s gifts are poisoned.” Victarion is suspicious of the young maester. The fellow is cowardly, but it’s not clear what his motivation for poisoning his captain would be. Not so with the dusky woman. She may be working with the warlocks, Euron, or both. They might be fine with getting rid of the younger Greyjoy brother after the dragons are secured.

Again looking for parallels, the main suspect in the locust matter would be the Green Grace. However, we need not accept this interpretation. Perhaps the three categories should be seen as indicating the three people who will be accused of the crime. Skahaz accuses Hizdahr. Hizdahr accuses Quentyn and his friends. No one directly says that the GG is responsible for the locusts. However, the Shavepate tells Barristan, “She may be conspiring with the Yunkai’i even as we sit here.” The Widower asks, “And when the Yunkai’i send back the old woman to spit in your eye, what then?”

Yeah I mean, with all the talk of who poisoned Joff and Jon Arryn and then in the end it is in fact, women who are the poisoners. So I am not sure if this is meant to show us that in all instances of poisoning, women are the culprits, or if it is just meant to throw us off. Lol, I still don't know who it is......

my first post so forgive me if my english is bad

you guys are doing a great job here and i love all your views on Danny and it makes me happy to see that i am not the only one who enjoyed Daenerys chapters in ADWD.

i want to add two things to this conversation . first Melisandre sees in fire a clear blue sky and a winged shadows in her chapter and Danny's pit chapter start with a mention of sky appearing blue with no cloud and ends with Drogon returning .

second i want to talk about Drogon returning . do you guys believe that author deliberately downplays this bond with the raider and dragon because this Drogon returning and Sunfyre returning to Aegon can easily be written as the Dragon sensing that their riders are in need of them and returning .but instead he makes the readers doubt about their return

i think this is mainly because of the author trying to differ from other Fantasy works.what do you guys think about think can this be a reason

Hey Welcome to the forum and thanks for the encouraging post :)

Yes I think GRRM does not want this to seem too much like a run-of-the-mill fantasy novel, so sometimes he plays things down. Drogon and Sunfyre both show signs of being excellent dragons to their riders, coming when needed and demanding loyalty just by being there. ANd good catch about Mel seeing Drogon in her fires, I never noticed that :)

[MoIaF]

snip

Very nice catch. Here are the quotes:

Melisandre:

"Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again , staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them,rising from the depths.

Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky."

Daenerys

“It were the black one,” the man said, in a Ghiscari growl, “ the winged shadow. He come down from the sky and … and …”

"...And Drogon … The winged shadow, the grieving father called him."

Daenerys IX

"The sky was a merciless blue, without a wisp of cloud in sight."

"The barbs raked along his snout. Drogon rose, his wings covering her in shadow."

[BearQueen87]

my first post so forgive me if my english is bad

you guys are doing a great job here and i love all your views on Danny and it makes me happy to see that i am not the only one who enjoyed Daenerys chapters in ADWD.

Welcome to the forums!

While I agree that Dany will be much wiser given her experience in Slaver's Bay, I'm unsure of whether or not she'll have learned all her lessons or understand how to control her dragon now that she has embraced it.

I think her time in Westeros especially after her arrival will also be an important learning experience. That is, she'll go to Westeros to claim the Iron Throne, however, the events of Winter will change whatever plans she has. To rule in Slaver's Bay won't be the same as ruling in Westeros, very different environment and politics.

Dany still has more growing to do, absolutely. But I don't think she's going to be "stuck" as is in ADWD in Meereen. γνῶθι σεαυτόν (gnothi seauton) as the Greeks would say, "Know Thyself." I think that's Dany at the end of Dance, she remembers who she is, both mother and dragon, and she can move forward from there.

However, as we have been discussing Dany's bond with Drogon was there otherwise why would he show up at the pit when Dany was most in need of her dragon. That is, he must have been flying for a while in order to get to the pit when he did.

Speaking of Drogon and Dany, I was re-reading a chapter in Clash last night (Dany II, I think) and there is a scene between Dany, Jorah and Drogon, where the dragon just hops up on the cushions next to Dany and just hangs out with them. The other two dragons never really have that kind of connection to Dany. They'll eat from her hand and she refers to all of them as her children, but Drogon is the one that has been the most attached to her really since they hatched. At the pyre, the other two require sustenance right away, but Drogon just curls up around Dany's neck and is quite content to just be there.

Tyrion XII

Oh good new chapter! I'll get back to this later today!!

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Thanks for the analysis Suzanne!

Not many Dany references in this chapter, though Tyrion's comments on slavery seem significant.

It explains the life of a slave, many people use this as an example as to why it's better to be a slave than to be free.

I believe coming to that assumption is completely missing the point, Tyrion was a special slave yet his master still sent him to be eaten by lions it seems to me more that the author is raising questions on said "special slaves" rather than trying to say its better to be a special slave than to be free.

[BearQueen87]

Tyrion XII

Really nice job Suzanna Stormborn!

This is a good chapter for Tyrion to end on; he obviously has some sort of plan to turn the tide, but we don't get to know what it is until Winds comes out.

This chapter begins with Tyrion joining the Second Sons. He is forced to sign a large stack of IOU’s before they will accept him. The IOU’s range from very low to the last one being 100,000 gold dragons to BBP personally. Tyrion cringes and makes jokes the whole time, my guess is that these parchments will come back later to bite him in the ass. ‘One day he might rue these signatures. But not this day.’ He has no choice but to sign the documents, as the Second Sons are threatening to turn him in as an escaped slave.

I always found this scene to be fairly hilarious. Tyrion's goal in AWDW is to find a way to get Casterly Rock...and here he is merrily signing away its riches because he has no choice.

Speaking of irony

"This is not Westeros. On this side of the narrow sea, we put our promises on paper."

Compared to Tyrion's thoughts in his previous chapter about the nature of promises on paper:

Tyrion was inclined to doubt that [that the war is over]. Parchments had been signed, but wars were not fought on parchments

Penny is constantly reluctant and needs everything explained to her like a baby. Tyrion placates her to keep her happy, but she annoys me big time! He talks her into coming to get fitted for armor, and does not tell her that her beloved dog and pig are dead, to keep her from depression. Tyrion stirkes up a conversation with a boy from flea bottom, and when the boy asks what Tyrion misses most, his 1^st thought is, Jaime. Which is a good sign for Tyrion, considering all his loathing for his entire family, at least he will probably forgive Jaime eventually.

You know who would get along splendidly with Penny? Quentyn. Everything about them is fairly tragic. Both their adventures stink.

The fact that Tyrion thinks of Jaime first actually worries me that Tyrion will be the betrayal for love....for the love of Jaime.

Jorah, at least, is fairing better than he was at Yezzan’s; ‘He looks every inch a sellsword and not at all like the half-broken thing we took from Yezzan’s cage, Tyrion reflected.’ Of course now he will carry the tattoo on his face for the rest of his life, a mark to show he is a dangerous and disobedient slave (there’s no better kind).

Ah, time to talk about Jorah! Goody!

I've said this during this re-read before, but Jorah is loosing little pieces of himself as he moves toward Dany and his own redemption. Before redemption you must first fall apart and recognize that you need redeemed. There is a lot to be said about clothing here, in regards to Jorah. Recall how we found him in an earlier Tyrion chapter.

Tyrion did not like the look of him. He liked the big black bear on his surcoat even less. Wool. He's wearing wool in this heat. Who else but a knight would be so fucking mad?

[snip]

The knight shoved his whore aside and got to his feet. His sword belt hung on a peg beside him.

Instantly Jorah is recognized as a knight, and not only a knight complete with sword, but he's still wearing his proud house sigil of the big black bear. Despite being let go by Dany, Jorah is still trying to convince himself, IMO, that he's a good knight and still the wrongly exiled Lord of Bear Island. He refuses to give up these symbols that demonstrate that. Even on the journey to Meereen, Jorah maintains (somewhat) that knightly image, honing his sword, trying to protect Tyrion and Penny. These symbols must be taken from him.

From the Tyrion chapter where everyone is sold:

Two slaver dragged Jorah Mormont onto the block to take her place. The knight was naked but for a breechclout, his back raw from the whip, his face so swollen as to be almost unrecognizable.

[snip]

All that course dark hair on his chest made him look more beast than man

No knightly armor, no sword, no proud sigil, no clothing, period. Naked and bare before everyone, an ugly brand on his face. A brand that will always remind him of how far he fell because of his own pride. Everything that Jorah once thought he was has literally been stripped from him and he moves into the truly dark period of his arc.

And now, we rebuild My Bear, but it doesn't happen all at once. You don't go from slave to Knight and Lord over night. It's a process.

"None of it is pretty but it will stop a sword.

A big knight stepped down from the back of a wagon, clad head to heel in company steel. His left greave did not match his right, his gorget was spotted with rust, his vambraces rich and ornate, inlaid with niello flowers. On his right hand was a gauntlet of lobstered steel, on his left a fingerless mitt of rusted mail. The nipples on his muscled brestplate had a pair of iron rings through them. His greathelm sported a ram's horns, one of which broken.

[snip]

His bruises had mostly faded by now, and the swelling in his face had largely subsided, so Mormont looked almost human once again.

And here we have Jorah in our current chapter:

back in armor...but armor that doesn't match and is some sad condition

A sellsword instead of a knight

BUT a MAN again instead of an ANIMAL.

I am going to predict in WOW we will continue to see Jorah transform back into a better version of himself: Lord Jorah Mormont of Bear Island, decidedly more humble and less proud, standing by his Queen fighting for their shared concept of home.

“They could be bought and sold, whipped and branded, used for the carnal pleasure of their owners, bred to make more slaves. In that sense they were no more than dogs or horses. But most lords treated their dogs and horses well enough. Proud men might shout that they would sooner die free than live as slaves, but pride was cheap

Isn't slavery fun? Damn you Dany for corrupting such an elegant system. :rolleyes:

There has never been a slave that did not choose to be a slave, the dwarf reflected. Their choice may be between bondage and death, but the choice is always there.”

I agree with what Tyrion is saying, there is always a choice, but there is always hope as well. Just because you are bound as a slave does not mean you will never be free, If you kill yourself then you will never know. Having to make choices like that show how terrible slavery is, and how all this in Slaver’s Bay must be stopped.

"Some men would rather die free than live a slave" Tyrion says in his previous POV. And by the end of that chapter, and again in this one, Tyrion makes his choice: freedom. FREEDOM is always the right choice. And that's what Dany is giving these people: freedom.

once the queen returns. She will. She must.

:love: I love you, Jorah Mormont. He knows damn well that Dany is alive and will come back.

Tyrion replies to Jorah with one of the best things he has said since coming to Meereen; “Oh I know,” said Tyrion. “The Second Sons are on the losing side. They need to turn their cloaks again and do it now.” He grinned. “Leave that to me.”

:bowdown:

Perfect way to end a POV of character! Way to leave us hanging, GRRM!!!!

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

However, as we have been discussing Dany's bond with Drogon was there otherwise why would he show up at the pit when Dany was most in need of her dragon. That is, he must have been flying for a while in order to get to the pit when he did.

I also think the dream she had before going to the pit has a lot to do with his return. Dany even describes it as queer, it just came out of no where. So I think her increasing frustration even before the pit scene was going to bring him back some way or some how, since dragons can sense their riders emotions.