Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part V: ADWD

[SeanF]

Nice analysis, Suzanna.

I'll have to resort to spoilers.

the Second Sons will indeed change sides. Tyrion and Jorah both work hard on Brown Ben and the other leaders. Ben is worried that Dany will execute him, if he tries to switch back. Tyrion argues he should say his defection to the Yunkai was a ploy. The Tattered Prince forces their hand, when he switches sides, during the battle for Yunkai. The Second Sons hail Queen Daenerys (wherever she may be) . Tyrion and Jorah promise to vouch for Ben.

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[Kyoshi]

my first post so forgive me if my english is bad

you guys are doing a great job here and i love all your views on Danny and it makes me happy to see that i am not the only one who enjoyed Daenerys chapters in ADWD.

i want to add two things to this conversation . first Melisandre sees in fire a clear blue sky and a winged shadows in her chapter and Danny's pit chapter start with a mention of sky appearing blue with no cloud and ends with Drogon returning .

second i want to talk about Drogon returning . do you guys believe that author deliberately downplays this bond with the raider and dragon because this Drogon returning and Sunfyre returning to Aegon can easily be written as the Dragon sensing that their riders are in need of them and returning .but instead he makes the readers doubt about their return

i think this is mainly because of the author trying to differ from other Fantasy works.what do you guys think about think can this be a reason

Welcome to the forums and the re-read! This is an encouraging post! Don't worry about your English at all. Nice catch with Mel's vision by the way. The best response I have for the bond between a dragon and a rider is this:

I read

The Underland Chronicles and one of the most prominent themes is that of friendship. The protagonist falls through a hole into an underland world where some of the ordinary animals in our world are much larger by several magnitudes. The humans in this underland have an alliance with the bats, which seem a lot like dragons. One human can only bond to one bat and this bond is for life. Once bonded, the bat and human have to protect one another to death. The most amazing thing about this bond is that the human does not own the bat...they each still belong to themselves. It's not like a human and a dog where the dog belongs to the human; this particular bond is one between equals. The bat has to accept the human and vice versa. The best way I understand a human-dragon team is by using the human-bat team as an analogy.

I also think the dream she had before going to the pit has a lot to do with his return. Dany even describes it as queer, it just came out of no where. So I think her increasing frustration even before the pit scene was going to bring him back some way or some how, since dragons can sense their riders emotions.

I agree with this.

Tyrion XII

<snip snipitty snip snip>

Great analysis, Suzanna! :cheers: Thanks!

Don't have anything to add but I like how Tyrion reflects on slavery.

[MoIaF]

Yes. There was his display in the Court that time for example. And Hizdhar certainly knows, which may possibly lend credence to the idea the posion was intended to abort her potential child (remember she also refused to have herself inspected, so the Green Grace and others could not be absolutely sure that Dany was not carrying a child (which, incidentally, she probably was)

This is a quote from Hizdhar in relation to Daario:

He is obviously well aware of Dany and Daario's liaisons, and there seems to be a hint of jealousy there too.

Also, wasn't the Green Grace in court that day. I can't remember right now.

Dany still has more growing to do, absolutely. But I don't think she's going to be "stuck" as is in ADWD in Meereen. γνῶθι σεαυτόν (gnothi seauton) as the Greeks would say, "Know Thyself." I think that's Dany at the end of Dance, she remembers who she is, both mother and dragon, and she can move forward from there.

Speaking of Drogon and Dany, I was re-reading a chapter in Clash last night (Dany II, I think) and there is a scene between Dany, Jorah and Drogon, where the dragon just hops up on the cushions next to Dany and just hangs out with them. The other two dragons never really have that kind of connection to Dany. They'll eat from her hand and she refers to all of them as her children, but Drogon is the one that has been the most attached to her really since they hatched. At the pyre, the other two require sustenance right away, but Drogon just curls up around Dany's neck and is quite content to just be there.

Oh, I agree I don't think she'll be stock (like she was in ADWD). But I do think there are things that need to happen for her final evolution. But that's just a hunch I don't have a lot of textual evidence for that. This is what I'm basis my hunch on: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102021-daenerys-stormborn-a-re-read-project-part-i-agot/?p=5501211

Re: Drogon

He really does have a read on Dany's emotions as we have discussed before and therefore there is a confidence about his relationship with her. That's a really good example of the intuitiveness of their relationship.

[Maia]

Well, when people compare bonds of Stark children with their direwolves with Dany's bond to Drogon they often conveniently forget that the former got their pups a whole year before Dany hatched her dragons.

Not only that, but I feel that Dany being subconsciously unwilling to "abandon" the other 2 in favor of concentrating on Drogon, who she was obviously most strongly connected to, significantly delayed the development of their bond and contributed to the dragons growing "wild".

After Drogon, Dany is most closely connected to Viserion, whose egg she held after her stillbirth and who was still hanging around, curling around the persimmon tree, etc., while the other 2 were roaming ever farther afield.

Rhaegel is the most distant dragon. As well as the one who likes to fish, IIRc ;).

Re: Yunkai being guaranteed to lose - there were still trained soldiers from New Ghis and Tolos. Sure, they were suffering from the pale mare, but they didn't desintegrate yet. So, Jorah may be a bit optimistic here, and Tyrion, of course, never intended to be on the Yunkish side to begin with ;).

I also strongly suspect that Sons of the Harpy are going to try to seize Meeren and close the gates against the Unsullied and freedmen army outside. Thus they will reveal themselves and make it possible to eliminate them more or less cleanly.

Re: poison, I am not sure. Poisoning could be tricky, and sometimes people survived, despite the intentions of poisoners. The Graces have the requisite knowledge, certainly, what with the Blue ones being healers.

OTOH, there could be certain value in keeping Dany weakened, but alive.

After all, maybe not all conspirators are fools and some of them may realize that sellswords and Volantenes aren't their friends and were counting on looting their city. Small things like Masters being back in charge might not stop them from trying to take the city regardless and the only trained military they have Is loyal to Dany. YMMV.

I do wonder about Skahaz - but he could have easily sabotaged Dany's marriage to Hisdahr by staging some fake "Harpy" killings. Yet, he didn't do so. Hm...

Also, Reznak. If he is on the Harpy's side, why did he implore Dany _not_ to leave Meeren back when she was considering Xaro's offer? It was a golden opportunity to get rid of her, yet he, as well as Skahaz, was terrified by the perspective of her leaving... Of course, he may have made deals with theHarpy since then and been promised return into the fold.

OTOH, shouldn't he have been able to poison Dany at her pyramide? In fact, it shouldn't have been difficult for _any_ of the main suspects to do so, given who Dany's cupbearers are and generally long distances between kitchens and Dany's quarters? Are cooks and servants in Dany's pyramide really much safer from the Harpy than the confectioner? Don't any of them have people lving in the city, who could be held hostage to blackmail them?

So, does this mean that Harpy realised that killing Dany could lead to explosion of violence, whith most of trained military in the city likely to attack the Masters in retaliation?

[BearQueen87]

Re: Drogon

He really does have a read on Dany's emotions as we have discussed before and therefore there is a confidence about his relationship with her. That's a really good example of the intuitiveness of their relationship.

Speaking of Drogon yet again (and because there is a thread about your favorite dragon that is turning into "why Jon will get Drogon"), there's another passage I re-read last night that shows just how close Dany and Drogon are. From ASOS Dany IV.

Dany and Jorah have just had their first real fight (the "I do not desire you Jorah Mormont" fight) and Dany becomes quite upset and "threw herself down on her pillows beside her dragons." She's telling herself that Jorah will forgive her and feeling lonely when:

Drogon looped his neck around to nip at her hand. His teeth were very sharp, but he never broke her skin when they played like this. Dany laughed, and rolled him back and forth until he roared, his tail lashing like a whip.

Drogon essentially senses her distress (oh no! Mommy and Daddy have fought!!) and goes to her. You don't see this with Visieron and Rhaegal. Drogon seems to recognize Dany not only as "mother" but also as a fellow dragon. Anyone ever see lion cubs play in the wild? It looks like they're trying to kill each other, but it's just their own fierce brand of play.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Nice analysis, Suzanna.

I'll have to resort to spoilers.

the Second Sons will indeed change sides. Tyrion and Jorah both work hard on Brown Ben and the other leaders. Ben is worried that Dany will execute him, if he tries to switch back. Tyrion argues he should say his defection to the Yunkai was a ploy. The Tattered Prince forces their hand, when he switches sides, during the battle for Yunkai. The Second Sons hail Queen Daenerys (wherever she may be) . Tyrion and Jorah promise to vouch for Ben.

.

Yeah, I can't wait for more literature on the subject. The samples Tyrion chapter is awesomesauce!

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

How is Danny the daughter of Aerys if her mother became pregnant after he was dead ?

George says Danny is 9 to 10 months younger than Jon and Jon is born some time after the sack of kings landing not to mention Danny's mom left Kings landing some time before the sack of Kings Landing.

1. Is this just us being too good with the time line ?

2. Was Jon not born within the day Ned arrives at the Tower of Joy ?

[MoIaF]

1. Well, when people compare bonds of Stark children with their direwolves with Dany's bond to Drogon they often conveniently forget that the former got their pups a whole year before Dany hatched her dragons.

Not only that, but I feel that Dany being subconsciously unwilling to "abandon" the other 2 in favor of concentrating on Drogon, who she was obviously most strongly connected to, significantly delayed the development of their bond and contributed to the dragons growing "wild".

After Drogon, Dany is most closely connected to Viserion, whose egg she held after her stillbirth and who was still hanging around, curling around the persimmon tree, etc., while the other 2 were roaming ever farther afield.

Rhaegel is the most distant dragon. As well as the one who likes to fish, IIRc ;).

Re: Yunkai being guaranteed to lose - there were still trained soldiers from New Ghis and Tolos. Sure, they were suffering from the pale mare, but they didn't desintegrate yet. So, Jorah may be a bit optimistic here, and Tyrion, of course, never intended to be on the Yunkish side to begin with ;).

I also strongly suspect that Sons of the Harpy are going to try to seize Meeren and close the gates against the Unsullied and freedmen army outside. Thus they will reveal themselves and make it possible to eliminate them more or less cleanly.

Re: poison, I am not sure. Poisoning could be tricky, and sometimes people survived, despite the intentions of poisoners. The Graces have the requisite knowledge, certainly, what with the Blue ones being healers.

OTOH, there could be certain value in keeping Dany weakened, but alive.

After all, maybe not all conspirators are fools and some of them may realize that sellswords and Volantenes aren't their friends and were counting on looting their city. Small things like Masters being back in charge might not stop them from trying to take the city regardless and the only trained military they have Is loyal to Dany. YMMV.

2. I do wonder about Skahaz - but he could have easily sabotaged Dany's marriage to Hisdahr by staging some fake "Harpy" killings. Yet, he didn't do so. Hm...

Also, Reznak. If he is on the Harpy's side, why did he implore Dany _not_ to leave Meeren back when she was considering Xaro's offer? It was a golden opportunity to get rid of her, yet he, as well as Skahaz, was terrified by the perspective of her leaving... Of course, he may have made deals with theHarpy since then and been promised return into the fold.

OTOH, shouldn't he have been able to poison Dany at her pyramide? In fact, it shouldn't have been difficult for _any_ of the main suspects to do so, given who Dany's cupbearers are and generally long distances between kitchens and Dany's quarters? Are cooks and servants in Dany's pyramide really much safer from the Harpy than the confectioner? Don't any of them have people lving in the city, who could be held hostage to blackmail them?

So, does this mean that Harpy realised that killing Dany could lead to explosion of violence, whith most of trained military in the city likely to attack the Masters in retaliation?

1. Really good point especially about Dany's unwillingness to cement her bond with Drogon because of the other two dragons.

I think the timeline is such that Dany's story actually is ahead of the main story by a few months at the beginning of the books. However, while the Stark kids were at home and at peace having fun with their pets Dany was leading her people a day or so after hatching the dragons so she had very little leisure time with them. So your point still stands. :D

2. He had the most access to her of all the suspects, so if he wanted to hurt her he could have done so. However, the Meereenese Blot theory believes that he staged it that way at the pit so that Hizzy would be blames, which is what happened. He also knew that Dany didn't really like Ghis food. So, I dono.... I still like the idea of it being the GG.

Speaking of Drogon yet again (and because there is a thread about your favorite dragon that is turning into "why Jon will get Drogon"), there's another passage I re-read last night that shows just how close Dany and Drogon are. From ASOS Dany IV.

Dany and Jorah have just had their first real fight (the "I do not desire you Jorah Mormont" fight) and Dany becomes quite upset and "threw herself down on her pillows beside her dragons." She's telling herself that Jorah will forgive her and feeling lonely when:

Drogon essentially senses her distress (oh no! Mommy and Daddy have fought!!) and goes to her. You don't see this with Visieron and Rhaegal. Drogon seems to recognize Dany not only as "mother" but also as a fellow dragon. Anyone ever see lion cubs play in the wild? It looks like they're trying to kill each other, but it's just their own fierce brand of play.

People will be debating this until the end of the series. :headshake:

Another excellent example of the intimate relationship of Dany and Drogon. These are all sprinkled throughout her story if you pay attention. He more than the other two has been able to understand and react to Dany's mood.

You see it right before the sack of Astapor where the other two dragons are freaking out at being chained and Drogon is calm almost sleeping because he knows what mother has planned.

You also see it in Astapor where is only burns the tokar of the Yunkai envoy even though he could have burned the man alive if his mother wished it.

[BearQueen87]

How is Danny the daughter of Aerys if her mother became pregnant after he was dead ?

George says Danny is 9 to 10 months younger than Jon and Jon is born some time after the sack of kings landing not to mention Danny's mom left Kings landing some time before the sack of Kings Landing.

1. Is this just us being too good with the time line ?

2. Was Jon not born within the day Ned arrives at the Tower of Joy ?

1) Dany is 8 to 9 months younger than Jon.

2) Dany's mother, Rhaella, left KL two weeks before the Sack. There is a way to track this by tracking who the Hand is at the time. Rhaella and Viserys (and a newly conceived Dany) fled after the Trident. We know Rhaella was freshly pregnant because the marks from Aerys' savagery were still fresh on her, meaning that he had just raped Rhaella again (probably after burning his last Hand, Chestland I believe). That is when Dany is conceived.

if you have more questions, visit RLJ. We're masters at time lining these little things.

[SeanF]

MOIAF, I think that's right about the timeline. Dany's first chapter is set about six months before Bran's first chapter, I think. Most of her story is set a few months before the stories in Westeros. I think it's only her last chapter in ADWD that's simultaneous to Jon's last chapter.

[PatrickStormborn]

MOIAF, I think that's right about the timeline. Dany's first chapter is set about six months before Bran's first chapter, I think. Most of her story is set a few months before the stories in Westeros. I think it's only her last chapter in ADWD that's simultaneous to Jon's last chapter.

The timeline matches up by the end of AGoT - the comet is proof of that. Her ASoS story is likely ahead of the others too, based on how little time she spends in Qarth. But by ADwD I think it's mostly lined up again.

This timeline is my favourite, and it has Dany's final chapter at the end. It's one of the reasons I tend to theorise that Dany won't return to Meereen.

[SeanF]

I can't imagine that she'd just abandon people that she's fond of, in Meereen. I'd expect her to pay the city a flying visit, at least.

[MoIaF]

The timeline matches up by the end of AGoT - the comet is proof of that. Her ASoS story is likely ahead of the others too, based on how little time she spends in Qarth. But by ADwD I think it's mostly lined up again.

This timeline is my favourite, and it has Dany's final chapter at the end. It's one of the reasons I tend to theorise that Dany won't return to Meereen.

Excellent timeline and actually Maia is right it's almost a year in between the Starks getting their direwolves (March 298) and Dany hatching the dragons. (January 299).

I can't imagine that she'd just abandon people that she's fond of, in Meereen. I'd expect her to pay the city a flying visit, at least.

I agree with Sean she'll return if only to burn whatever is left to the ground and to make arrangements to move her people towards Volantis (or near by).

[BearQueen87]

I can't imagine that she'd just abandon people that she's fond of, in Meereen. I'd expect her to pay the city a flying visit, at least.

I agree. There are a lot of reasons for her to go back to Meereen--her handmaids, Missandei, the Unsullied, Selmy, even Daario. I expect her to fly back, find that the Battle is over and that Tyrion and Jorah are holding the city (Barry too if he doesn't die in battle, though his death seems more likely). I have no idea how she gets out of Slaver's Bay from there but I do think she'll return.

[SeanF]

I suppose that if she's riding Westwards with the Dothraki, she could send messengers, ordering her people to leave and join her, but, I imagine she'd want to leave some sort of government in place.

Also, I think there's some clear foreshadowing in ADWD, that some or all of the Volantene fleet will revolt in her favour. That would give her the means of transporting soldiers Westward.

[PatrickStormborn]

I can't imagine that she'd just abandon people that she's fond of, in Meereen. I'd expect her to pay the city a flying visit, at least.

Well, my theory is that there will be nothing left of Meereen after the battle. If ADwD was supposed to end with the battle of fire, then the battle was supposed to give that storyline some sort of conclusion. I wouldn't be surprised if it's called the "battle of fire" for a reason: it ends with fire. Moreover, I would imagine that Dany's final chapter was always intended to take place at the end of the book.

I don't want to jump too far ahead so it may be best to leave this discussion till after her final chapter... But if the timeline is accurate, and if Dany truly needs to go to Vaes Dothrak, everyone in Meereen will be waiting a long time before she returns...

It's also worth noting that all her Dothraki are sent into the Dothraki Sea by Barristan.

[MoIaF]

I suppose that if she's riding Westwards with the Dothraki, she could send messengers, ordering her people to leave and join her, but, I imagine she'd want to leave some sort of government in place.

Also, I think there's some clear foreshadowing in ADWD, that some or all of the Volantene fleet will revolt in her favour. That would give her the means of transporting soldiers Westward.

I think this might show why she'll need to return. If she's there when they arrive then she can talk them into revolting. I don't know if they would revolt without her being there...

[BearQueen87]

I suppose that if she's riding Westwards with the Dothraki, she could send messengers, ordering her people to leave and join her, but, I imagine she'd want to leave some sort of government in place.

I imagine she'd want that as well but, to be honest, it makes me nervous. I don't know how she can pick up and leave SB's "trusting" that whatever she puts into place will last and not turn into another Cleon-type regime. I guess that's the risk she has to take to get her to Westeros.

[MoIaF]

I imagine she'd want that as well but, to be honest, it makes me nervous. I don't know how she can pick up and leave SB's "trusting" that whatever she puts into place will last and not turn into another Cleon-type regime. I guess that's the risk she has to take to get her to Westeros.

Hmm, no I don't think there will be a government not in Slaver's Bay at least. I really think Meereen is burning to the ground. She'll be moving her people out of there, but that's just a hunch.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree. There are a lot of reasons for her to go back to Meereen--her handmaids, Missandei, the Unsullied, Selmy, even Daario. I expect her to fly back, find that the Battle is over and that Tyrion and Jorah are holding the city (Barry too if he doesn't die in battle, though his death seems more likely). I have no idea how she gets out of Slaver's Bay from there but I do think she'll return.

She wont leave without coming back;

"She might be flying home," he told himself aloud.

"No," murmured a soft voice behind him. "She would not do that, ser. She would not go home without us." ---Barristan and Missandei