Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part V: ADWD

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Snip

Yea agree even if Drogon never came, Volantis were also on the way in addition to what you said

[Parwan]

Concerning Daenerys and Robert, MoiaF said:

“She wondered whether the boar that had killed Robert Baratheon had looked as fierce. A terrible creature and a terrible death. For a heartbeat she felt almost sorry for the Usurper.”

It’s curious that Barsena’s death is the straw that breaks the camels back and she associated Barsena’s fight with Robert’s death. In the end it was just one to many compromises, one to many senseless deaths.

As BearQueen tells us, Dany has empathy. The connection between the two monarchs could be said to be stronger. Certainly the death in the woods and the death in the pit have interesting similarities. I'm not as big on symbolism and foreshadowing as some readers are. However, the following list of items is worth thinking about:

Robert and Barsena were both great fighters.

Both were killed by boars.

The beast ripped the woman from knee to groin and the man from groin to nipple.

Barristan was there in both cases, standing to one side because he belongs with Dany or standing aside because his liege told him to do so.

A terrible smell is noted in both cases.

Barsena used a knife when she should have used a spear. Robert missed his thrust with the spear and then killed the boar with a knife.

You can make of this what you want. It is curious that there are so many connections.

[BearQueen87]

Concerning Daenerys and Robert, MoiaF said:

As BearQueen tells us, Dany has empathy. The connection between the two monarchs could be said to be stronger. Certainly the death in the woods and the death in the pit have interesting similarities. I'm not as big on symbolism and foreshadowing as some readers are. However, the following list of items is worth thinking about:

Robert and Barsena were both great fighters.

Both were killed by boars.

The beast ripped the woman from knee to groin and the man from groin to nipple.

Barristan was there in both cases, standing to one side because he belongs with Dany or standing aside because his liege told him to do so.

A terrible smell is noted in both cases.

Barsena used a knife when she should have used a spear. Robert missed his thrust with the spear and then killed the boar with a knife.

You can make of this what you want. It is curious that there are so many connections.

Wow. I'm not sure what GRRM is doing here unless it's just to show that Dany is able to have emotions other than anger and hatred for the Usurper and that it will most likely play into the story later, but dang...those are quite a few parallels.

[Fire Eater]

Good job, MOIAF.

As to the Tattered Prince and Pentos, that offer will be met as we all know. I think Dany will visit Pentos after Volantis following the possible parallel with Daemon Targaryen and Laena Velaryon.

Next a bull was set against a bear that left both animals torn and dying.

I think this could foreshadow Jorah fighting Victarion, who is oft compared to a bull. Jorah wouldn't let the woman he loves chance to marry a guy like Victarion.

An elephant made short work of a pack of six red wolves

I think this is the GC/Aegon making short work of the other contenders in the 7K.

Drogon

The reason for his return is a mystery. It could be he near exhausted the food supply near his cave.

Also, attacking a dragon, yeah that is a good idea. (sarcasm) Drogon hadn't killed anyone before he was attacked, Barsena was already dead. Like any other creature in existence, he will be inclined to defend himself when he feels threatened.

In the smoldering red pits of Drogon's eyes, Dany saw her own reflection.

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

-Friedrich Nietzsche

Dany has let her dragon free.

Not much else to say surprisingly.

[BearQueen87]

1) Next a bull was set against a bear that left both animals torn and dying.

I think this could foreshadow Jorah fighting Victarion, who is oft compared to a bull. Jorah wouldn't let the woman he loves chance to marry a guy like Victarion.

2) An elephant made short work of a pack of six red wolves

I think this is the GC/Aegon making short work of the other contenders in the 7K.

.

1) While I do think it's inevitable that Jorah and Vic will fight (no way Jorah would let Vic get near Dany), I think it's worth noting that Jorah, while most commonly referred to as the Bear, also also been likened to a Bull.

The knight smiled. Ser Jorah was not a handsome man. He had a neck and shoulders like a bull, and coarse black hair covered his arms and chest so thickly that there was none left for his head

Dany III, aGoT

So in that passage is he both bull and bear. Jorah is also, of course, as stubborn and headstrong as a bull while being overly protective as a "mother bear" (something Dany notes in ACOK while at Xaro's). The passage from Dance in question could be a moment of foreshadowing between Vic and Jorah OR it could also be the idea of Jorah's two selves battling: his stubbornness and pride vs his tender and caring nature.

2) Can you please remind me if GC/Aegon have ever been compared to an elephant? I can't recall, honestly.

Also the 6 red wolves: Tommen, Stannis, Dorne/Mrycella, Euron...who am I missing? ETA: the north, I guess counts as one entity even though they've lost their king...

[SeanF]

Many thanks, MoIaF. This is a fine chapter.

If I may jump ahead, it seems clear to me, after reading this, that Drogon isn't going to fly away and abandon Daenerys at the start of the next book. The pair of them are now bound together for the rest of their lives. That's not the same thing as a dragon being totally obedient to its rider. But, Drogon would surely react very violently to threats towards her.

While it's no coincidence that Drogon should have returned, at that point, he was still furious towards her. Had she run, he'd have killed her. Presumably, he saw the attempt to chain him up months previously as a betrayal.

Dragons aren't invincible (as we see from TPATQ) but even one as young as Drogon is very hard to kill. He survives a spear thrust, and numerous crossbow bolts, with no more than minor injuries.

[Fire Eater]

2) Can you please remind me if GC/Aegon have ever been compared to an elephant? I can't recall, honestly.

Also the 6 red wolves: Tommen, Stannis, Dorne/Mrycella, Euron...who am I missing? ETA: the north, I guess counts as one entity even though they've lost their king...

"Lets no forget the elephants."

"And my elephants."

The elephants are mentioned often in the GC in Connington's POV. Also

There was talk of elephants.

No dragons?

Elephants.

Doran and Arianne talking about the GC.

I don't know who the six red wolves could refer to.

[MoIaF]

This is a really excellent analysis MoIaF!!

Thanks! :blush:

Anyone ever see the movie Gladiator? There's a line from it that came to mind when I read the quote MoIaF : "I think he knows what Rome is. Rome is the mob, conjure magic for them and they will be distracted. Take away their freedom and still they’ll roar. The beating heart of Rome is not the marble of the senate it’s the sand of the Colosseum. He will bring them death and they will love him for it.”

The culture of Meereen is one that is heavily steeped in outward displays of violence. It is one where entertainment is also distraction and that means blood and sweet in the fighting pits. The slaves love Dany because she gave them freedom but also because she gave the cruel Masters a taste of their own medicine--the same violence and cruelty visited upon them. And now Meereen cheers for a return of their violent entertainment. What is more important is this: how it makes Dany feel. She is NOT King Aerys who is aroused by the idea of violence and bloodshed. In fact, for most of this chapter Dany is really disquieted. She's not looking forward to any part of this.

I think this goes back to something we've been discussing throughout Dany's ADWD arc, wanting peace ≠ not fighting. This, what is happening at the pit is senseless, meaningless, fighting which Dany dreads because she know that people will be loosing their lives for the entertainment of others. On the other hand you have her exhilaration when she goes into battle when fighting people she knows are destructive to humanity (i.e. Astapor).

I think that's what she forgot or repressed in ADWD, that it's okay to fight when it's for a good cause, you can try and achieve peace but it should not be at the cost of your morals / ideals.

Miscellaneous Notes

1) This is one of those times where I'd love to have a Jorah POV because I really want his reaction to Dany flying on a dragon. Jorah clearly doesn't think Dany is dead (he still has fight in him as we saw in Tyrion XI).

2) I love that Missandei is the only one who sees how terrible the fighting pits are, as opposed to Irri and Jhiqui:

4) The poisoning...was it Hizzy's plan (the Green Graces?) Did they intend Dany to die today?

6) The betrayals come up again and Dany seems to have decided that: "she [MMD] was the first, Jorah the second, Brown Ben Plumm the third." Which makes MMD = blood, Jorah = gold, and BBP = love. Raise your hand if you think the final two make any sense at all. Interesting that a few chapters back, when BBP betrayed her, Dany couldn't decide which betrayal was which. She'll do so again at the end of the book. I firmly believe that the two betrayals are yet to come (and won't be Jorah or BBP since they were accused once before)

7) I know many have predicted that "next a bull set against a bear in a bloody battle that left both animals torn and dying" is a reference to Jorah and Vic fighting. Two things:

A) If it is, neither of them die..they are just gravely injured and Vic just so happens to have a handy dandy Red Priest on hand. Now who do we think Moqoro would save to gain favor with Dany? Vic, the man she's never met and who wants to steal a dragon...or Jorah, her gruff bear whom she has missed so very much?

B ) This could all be nothing but two animals fighting because unless there is also an elephant being torn apart by 6 red wolves somewhere...it means nothing

1. I can just read in my mind the description of her flying for another character's POV, and it's going to be epic. I think she's a natural at it, we got a glimpse of this in the chapter where Dany rode her Silver and suddenly became an excellent rider.

2. Missandei is a life saver for Dany but I do wonder how long will she have her, I hope she is able to take her to Westeros with her. Her handmaidens who are her age are just silly girls and don't understand the intricacies of the life Dany lives, while Missandei the 10 year old does.

4. Have you ever read the Meereenese Blot? It's a series of essays discussing Dany's arc in Meereen. I don't agree with everything, especially it's conclusion, but it does make a very persuasive case for the Shavepate being the poisoner.

6. I don't know what Dany was thinking when she thought this, if she thinks those were the last betrayals she'll know (and I also think she's wrong about the last two), then she is fooling herself. She really should know better by now.

7. I don't think that there is any forshadowing there, something a description of events, is just that. GRRM is trying to provide us with a colorful view of the violent and bloodthirsty culture Dany finds herself in.

Additional Note:

I was reading some thread discussing the Dothraki culture as villainous and in thinking about how Dany's time in Meereen has shown us how disdainful Dany is for the Ghis culture because of it's violence why would she give the Dothraki a "pass".

I think there are two things going on here, first she lived with the Dothraki, was part of a khalasar and considered herself part of the family, but also she understood them, understood why they did what they did. For all the savagery of the Dothraki, there is a reason for it a purpose, it's not violance for violence sake (most of the time). While on the other hand the Ghis are full of violence for violence sake. The second thing is that the Dothraki are a somewhat primitive people, while the Ghis called themselves enlighten and civilized. I think that might be what bothers Dany the most, that if they are so enlighten and civilized then they should know better.

Very nice analysis MOIAF.

This is one of the most well written chapters in Dany's whole arc. It's very cinematic and it's full of symbols and motifs and at the same time keeps the reader entertained.

Thank you! :D

It really is cinematic and I can't wait to see it on the show.

Fully agree. And I also think Martin is raising questions, like what if Dany brought peace through a different way? Such as "Blood and Fire" will she have to go through all these compromises of people bringing back their old ways? It might be a bloody way but it could be a better peace.

I wonder if Aegon didn't destroy House Harrenhal, but rather compromised with them, what would have happened. My guess is that sooner or later their old ways of slavery etc would return and that might be worse than what he really did.

I think this is a really good point, there are times where you should definitely compromise, compromise is an important part of ruling a city, state or country. However, there are times you can't compromise because the compromise itself would eventually destroy what you are trying to create. It's an important lesson and I'm not sure Dany has yet learned it completely, but I hope she does.

Yes. I see this as almost like a "Let it Go"(Frozen reference) moment in Dany's arc.

I talked about how her fashon as very symbolic in her arc just as it is in Sansa's arc earlier and I think Dany removing the tokar dress for a tunic(which becomes ragged) is kind of her releasing her innerself throwing away the mask she was wearing.

This contrast in AGOT is very similar.

The exile knight looked from Dany to her brother; she barefoot, with dirt between her toes and oil in her hair, he with his silks and steel.

Basically it boils down to: Dany is happiest and most productive when she's "down to earth". She wasn't meant to be some queen ruling from afar, she was meant to be with the people, that's really her gift.

Thank you MoIaF. :) Beautiful analysis of one of my favourite chapters in not just Dance, but the entire series :love:

Thank you very much! ;)

I'll start with some observations/comments of my own

The Queen of Rabbits

The queen of rabbits could not be seen without her floppy ears - this is hugely significant. At the end of the chapter, not only does she shed her tokar, she specifically says that she is "taking off my floppy ears." But at the start of the chapter, we see that she is still in this mentality of suppressing her own identity.

She's never going to be the queen of rabbits and her taking off her tokar in front of everyone is a declaration of that. She never saw herself as one of them and refuses to become one of them by the end of her time in the pit.

The Sons of the Harpy are tamed!

1) So, there may not officially be slavery in Meereen (a lie, we see that there are slaves in the next Quentyn chapter) but so called "servants" are little better than slaves. The man who collapsed is clearly badly treated. You don't get to the point of looking as though you haven't eaten for a fortnight be skipping one or two meals. It seems there is a very thin line between "slave" and "servant" and the nobles of Meereen are really pushing this line. This is hardly a "small victory" for Dany, as is claimed later.

2) Barristan begins to speak out about fears of the Sons of the Harpy. Hizdhar swiftly interrupts him. Why? How can he be so confident that they are placated? He as good as tells Dany and Barristan here that he is involved with, or in close contact with the Harpy.

It should be obvious to Dany by this point that Hizdahr is in league with he SoH. I mean, how else would he have gotten them to stop the killings? Whatever his role is within the Harpy organization, he is one of them and their interest are his own. He might be a little more civilized than the rest, but not by much as we see in the pit.

The Audience:

We see again Dany's compromise, allowing the Yunkish to enter Meereen with their slaves. If Meereen is a city where Slavery is outlawed, that should extend to people visiting the city - they should not be allowed to bring slaves inside the city. We see in one of the Arya chapters that when the Lyseni slave ships are seized, the Wildlings are freed from slavery. This is a much more appropriate way of doing things, as it sends the message that the city does not accept slavery in any way shape or form

I have to say that bothered me so much, especially in the previous chapter. I wanted to shake Dany up and say, "what are you thinking". You fought these people to end slavery and you allow them to re-enslave and bring those slaves into your own house?

You know how badly Dany has lost her way by the time this chapter begins, she's just completely forgotten what she was fighting for. She conflated fighting for peace with fighting for the oppresses. Not the same thing.

Let the Games Begin!

First of all - ew. Gross.

...

I've seen it mentioned by at least one poster recently that had Drogo not shown up, the peace with Yunkai would not have been broken, and there would have been no war. I think this is false. First we see Dany trying to turn the sellsword companies. Then we have this. It is clear that at this point, her acceptance of the compromises she had made has ended, and she will not be content to accept the Yunkish provocations.

The "peace" with the Yunkai was an illusion at best. We saw from the quote cade provided a few weeks back from the JonCon chapter that the Yunkai had debts to Volantis that will require an awful lot of slaves, like in, they would have to re-enslave a bunch of Meereenese in order to get them.

It was never going to happen, they would never allow Dany to keep Meereen slave free indefinitely, in fact, as you mentioned there was an underground slave trade going on in Meereen. It was all an illusion and anyone who says otherwise is simply not paying attention.

[Kyoshi]

It depends on how you define “light.” This is a truly fine example of a place where I part company with the “Meereen is so boring” crowd. (Note: I’m not accusing you of being part of this group.) There are no battles or duels featuring talented swordsmen in the chapter. However, it is filled with subtlety, irony, and good writing.

In the opening paragraph, Ser Gerris Drinkwater reports that he talked to some of his former mercenary associates. They were drinking and “watching naked slaves kill one another with bare hands and filed teeth.” That’s interesting. When we read that sentence, we can think back about how the opening of the fighting pits would supposedly be pleasing to the gods, about gold and glory, and about how even the losers shall have their names “graven on the Gates of Fate amongst the other valiant fallen.” All this sounds pretty hollow now. Unlikely that even the winners here would have their names graven anywhere. Ah, you may say, but the unsavory cellar with its yellow wine doesn't rank with Daznak’s Pit. I think it is all part of Meereenese culture, and the smaller pits probably aren't much better than the cellar. At any rate, worse is coming. Read on. [... ... ...]

I agree that this was an incredibly interesting chapter. I think the fighting pits are one of those things on which Daenerys should have been guilty of her biggest false crime--imperialism. It's often stated just how much she tries to force her ways onto these people and to change their culture; I think this is one case she should have actually been guilty of these lies. I further agree with MoIaF and Bearqueen87, even though a queen does not belong to herself but to her people, said queen still has to make certain decisions that are for the greater good, for lack of a better term. To me, some things, when it comes to ruling are like the relationship between a parent and a child: If a child wants to take violin lessons you talk it over with the child and see if this is a true desire, one that will not distract them or add to any pressure they might be dealing with, one that will add positivity in the child's life, then you start looking for the best violin teacher; if a child wants to have ice cream for dinner or kill a puppy you straight out tell the child Fuck No! Ironically enough, that line: a queen does not belong to herself but to her people, was what cemented my love for Daenerys as a character.

Daenerys IX

A Dragons First Flight

Great analysis MoIaF! Thanks! :thumbsup: :cheers:

I have a few thoughts to add, and this will tie in with Parwan's thoughts regarding the boars. I think it is very significant that these events happened in this order:

• A boar savagely kills a warrior

• Dany feels she cannot breathe in her Ghiscari attire; she then decides to take off her "floppy ears"

Dany reflects on the boar that killed Robert, precipitating the War of the Five Kings

Drogon makes a cameo

For the first time in over a century, the sky was blessed by the presence of a dragon rider

I must give full credit to the team currently running and participating in the Jon Snow Re-Read Project for this observation: a boar signals significant regime change or just major change in general. The first time a boar was mentioned (in a particularly important scene) was when it killed King Robert. The second time was when a skinchanger showed up with one on the Wall and guess what happened after the boar was noted by the author ever so conspicuously in several pages--Jon Snow was stabbed. And guess what happened in our favourite chapter after a boar killed a warrior--our Queen takes off her floppy ears and rides a dragon...and in the next chapter she thinks to herself: fire and blood!...or something along that line.

I also think that the dragons have a telepathic bond with Dany; I think this has been demonstrated several times in the books, most notably: when the dragons were still eggs, when the eggs hatched, and when Dany went to visit them with Quentyn. So I don't think it was just the smell of blood that drew Drogon back to her. I think her mounting dissatisfaction with the false peace, and the fact that she finally discarded the floppy ears, were incredibly significant.

[... ... ...]Anyone ever see the movie Gladiator? There's a line from it that came to mind when I read the quote MoIaF : "I think he knows what Rome is. Rome is the mob, conjure magic for them and they will be distracted. Take away their freedom and still they’ll roar. The beating heart of Rome is not the marble of the senate it’s the sand of the Colosseum. He will bring them death and they will love him for it.” [... ... ...]

Thanks for providing this quote. I think it describes Ghiscari culture and mentality accurately. It brings to mind the concept of panem et circenses, here is the Wikipedia quote:

Bread and circuses (or bread and games) (from Latin: panem et circenses) is metonymic for a superficial means of appeasement. In the case of politics, the phrase is used to describe the creation of public approval, not through exemplary or excellent public service or public policy, but through diversion; distraction; or the mere satisfaction of the immediate, shallow requirements of a populace,^[1] as an offered "palliative." Juvenal decried it as a simplistic motivation of common people.^[2][3][4] The phrase also implies the erosion or ignorance of civic duty amongst the concerns of the commoner.

Queen Alysanne, if I understand you correctly, you are touching on the fact that Daenerys has tried more than one method of changing the world, achieving peace, achieving her goals of becoming a ruler...and not just a ruler but a good one.

In Astapor she lived up to her House Words, in Yunkai she negotiated her way out of her House Words, in Meereen she forfeited her House Words completely and in the process, lost herself in every sense of the word. I think it's important to note that none of these methods worked well. None. I don't know if it's deliberate on the author's part. The more jarring thing about this is that most readers seem to miss these things completely. That it's not just the law of unintended consequences, it's also the formula of although I am 16 and ignorant in the ways of war/ruling, can you not see I have tried everything available to me and none of it is as productive as both Essosi citizens and ASOIAF readers would like?

Additionally, Queen Daenerys is not in an isolated lab, conducting her experiments without the influence of external forces and conditions. Granted, some of her decisions smack one over the head as being "stupid", for lack of a better word, but she is not alone in this. There are oh so many idiots and vile people (Hizzy and The Harpy being two I can think of) also in the same lab, negating some of her actions and stealing some of her chemicals. *End of rant.*

Also, I just wanted to say I love Missandei...so wise...so wise. And this was an awesome chapter!

[MoIaF]

Concerning Daenerys and Robert, MoiaF said:

As BearQueen tells us, Dany has empathy. The connection between the two monarchs could be said to be stronger. Certainly the death in the woods and the death in the pit have interesting similarities. I'm not as big on symbolism and foreshadowing as some readers are. However, the following list of items is worth thinking about:

Robert and Barsena were both great fighters.

Both were killed by boars.

The beast ripped the woman from knee to groin and the man from groin to nipple.

Barristan was there in both cases, standing to one side because he belongs with Dany or standing aside because his liege told him to do so.

A terrible smell is noted in both cases.

Barsena used a knife when she should have used a spear. Robert missed his thrust with the spear and then killed the boar with a knife.

You can make of this what you want. It is curious that there are so many connections.

Thank you for putting these details together. Like BearQueen, I'm unsure of where GRRM is taking these similarities but it's interesting to note how closely these two death resemble each other.

Good job, MOIAF.

Thanks! :D

Drogon

The reason for his return is a mystery. It could be he near exhausted the food supply near his cave.

Also, attacking a dragon, yeah that is a good idea. (sarcasm) Drogon hadn't killed anyone before he was attacked, Barsena was already dead. Like any other creature in existence, he will be inclined to defend himself when he feels threatened.

In the smoldering red pits of Drogon's eyes, Dany saw her own reflection.

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

-Friedrich Nietzsche

Dany has let her dragon free.

Not much else to say surprisingly.

I think the growing frustration Dany was feeling in the last chapter might have been the impetus for Drogon's arrival. There is a desperation there in Dany as she sees everything she has fought for slip through her fingers. Through their bond Drogon could have sensed this and come to her knowing she would not be able to take much more of it.

That's an excellent quote, it also ties in nicely with Dany's fevered dream:

"Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. Faster, they cried, faster, faster. She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. Faster! the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings."

"And Daenerys Targaryen flew. Wake the dragon The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings."

"She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door. ... the dragon...

Look at the sequence of the dream, Dany becomes the dragon, flies over the Dothraki sea, then flies to the place with green files and great stone houses (Westeros).

As far back as AGOT, GRRM told us how and when Dany would return to Westeros.

Many thanks, MoIaF. This is a fine chapter.

Thanks Sean! :)

If I may jump ahead, it seems clear to me, after reading this, that Drogon isn't going to fly away and abandon Daenerys at the start of the next book. The pair of them are now bound together for the rest of their lives. That's not the same thing as a dragon being totally obedient to its rider. But, Drogon would surely react very violently to threats towards her.

While it's no coincidence that Drogon should have returned, at that point, he was still furious towards her. Had she run, he'd have killed her. Presumably, he saw the attempt to chain him up months previously as a betrayal.

Dragons aren't invincible (as we see from TPATQ) but even one as young as Drogon is very hard to kill. He survives a spear thrust, and numerous crossbow bolts, with no more than minor injuries.

Agreed, whatever attracted Drogon to Dany he went to her in her time of need, even when he was obviously upset with her. He won't abandon her when she needs him.

[Kyoshi]

Thank you for putting these details together. Like BearQueen, I'm unsure of where GRRM is taking these similarities but it's interesting to note how closely these two death resemble each other.

See my post above (#229) for my take on it.

[BearQueen87]

"Lets no forget the elephants."

"And my elephants."

The elephants are mentioned often in the GC in Connington's POV. Also

There was talk of elephants.

No dragons?

Elephants.

Doran and Arianne talking about the GC.

I don't know who the six red wolves could refer to.

Many thanks.

1. I can just read in my mind the description of her flying for another character's POV, and it's going to be epic. I think she's a natural at it, we got a glimpse of this in the chapter where Dany rode her Silver and suddenly became an excellent rider.

Random crackpottery...but when Dany returns to Meereen, I think we'll see it in a Tyrion POV so we can get his reaction to Dany landing on the back of Drogon.

I have a few thoughts to add, and this will tie in with Parwan's thoughts regarding the boars. I think it is very significant that these events happened in this order:

• A boar savagely kills a warrior
• Dany feels she cannot breathe in her Ghiscari attire; she then decides to take off her "floppy ears"
• Dany reflects on the boar that killed Robert, precipitating the War of the Five Kings
• Drogon makes a cameo
• For the first time in over a century, the sky was blessed by the presence of a dragon rider

I must give full credit to the team currently running and participating in the Jon Snow Re-Read Project for this observation: a boar signals significant regime change or just major change in general. The first time a boar was mentioned (in a particularly important scene) was when it killed King Robert. The second time was when a skinchanger showed up with one on the Wall and guess what happened after the boar was noted by the author ever so conspicuously in several pages--Jon Snow was stabbed. And guess what happened in our favourite chapter after a boar killed a warrior--our Queen takes off her floppy ears and rides a dragon...and in the next chapter she thinks to herself: fire and blood!...or something along that line.

Nice!

[MoIaF]

I agree that this was an incredibly interesting chapter. I think the fighting pits are one of those things on which Daenerys should have been guilty of her biggest false crime--imperialism. It's often stated just how much she tries to force her ways onto these people and to change their culture; I think this is one case she should have actually been guilty of these lies. I further agree with MoIaF and Bearqueen87, even though a queen does not belong to herself but to her people, said queen still has to make certain decisions that are for the greater good, for lack of a better term. To me, some things, when it comes to ruling are like the relationship between a parent and a child: If a child wants to take violin lessons you talk it over with the child and see if this is a true desire, one that will not distract them or add to any pressure they might be dealing with, one that will add positivity in the child's life, then you start looking for the best violin teacher; if a child wants to have ice cream for dinner or kill a puppy you straight out tell the child Fuck No! Ironically enough, that line: a queen does not belong to herself but to her people, was what cemented my love for Daenerys as a character.

Great analysis MoIaF! Thanks! :thumbsup: :cheers:

I have a few thoughts to add, and this will tie in with Parwan's thoughts regarding the boars. I think it is very significant that these events happened in this order:

• A boar savagely kills a warrior

• Dany feels she cannot breathe in her Ghiscari attire; she then decides to take off her "floppy ears"

Dany reflects on the boar that killed Robert, precipitating the War of the Five Kings

Drogon makes a cameo

For the first time in over a century, the sky was blessed by the presence of a dragon rider

I must give full credit to the team currently running and participating in the Jon Snow Re-Read Project for this observation: a boar signals significant regime change or just major change in general. The first time a boar was mentioned (in a particularly important scene) was when it killed King Robert. The second time was when a skinchanger showed up with one on the Wall and guess what happened after the boar was noted by the author ever so conspicuously in several pages--Jon Snow was stabbed. And guess what happened in our favourite chapter after a boar killed a warrior--our Queen takes off her floppy ears and rides a dragon...and in the next chapter she thinks to herself: fire and blood!...or something along that line.

Thank you! :d

That's an excellent catch and it explains well the transition from the passive Dany tot he fighting Dany.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Queen Alysanne, if I understand you correctly, you are touching on the fact that Daenerys has tried more than one method of changing the world, achieving peace, achieving her goals of becoming a ruler...and not just a ruler but a good one.

In Astapor she lived up to her House Words, in Yunkai she negotiated her way out of her House Words, in Meereen she forfeited her House Words completely and in the process, lost herself in every sense of the word. I think it's important to note that none of these methods worked well. None. I don't know if it's deliberate on the author's part. The more jarring thing about this is that most readers seem to miss these things completely. That it's not just the law of unintended consequences, it's also the formula of although I am 16 and ignorant in the ways of war/ruling, can you not see I have tried everything available to me and none of it is as productive as both Essosi citizens and ASOIAF readers would like?

Additionally, Queen Daenerys is not in an isolated lab, conducting her experiments without the influence of external forces and conditions. Granted, some of her decisions smack one over the head as being "stupid", for lack of a better word, but she is not alone in this. There are oh so many idiots and vile people (Hizzy and The Harpy being two I can think of) also in the same lab, negating some of her actions and stealing some of her chemicals. *End of rant.*

Also, I just wanted to say I love Missandei...so wise...so wise. And this was an awesome chapter!

Yea this is how I see her whole slaver's bay arc. A different approach at each city.

In Astapor she dealt with her enemies by violence in Yunkai she dealt with them by harsh negotiation.

And as you said she abandoned both in Meereen. And even goes as far as giving up negotiation to people like Hizdahr etc.

I think Dany's main problem in Meereen is how she deals with her enemies to achieve peace and isn't necessarily about her "not ruling well" as a whole.

I used to think in the spectrum of "Dany is a conqueror and not a ruler" but my views have changed, I think based off Meereen, if she has learnt how to deal with her enemies and gets a decent council she can turn out to be a good ruler.

[BearQueen87]

Yea this is how I see her whole slaver's bay arc. A different approach at each city.

In Astapor she dealt with her enemies by violence in Yunkai she dealt with them by harsh negotiation.

And as you said she abandoned both in Meereen. And even goes as far as giving up negotiation to people like Hizdahr etc.

I think Dany's main problem in Meereen is how she deals with her enemies to achieve peace and isn't necessarily about her "not ruling well" as a whole.

I used to think in the spectrum of "Dany is a conqueror and not a ruler" but my views have changed, I think based off Meereen, if she has learnt how to deal with her enemies and gets a decent council she can turn out to be a good ruler.

I think Dany could be a very good ruler. As you said, she is wiling to try different methods: violence, negotiation, and political alliances like marriage. She does need better council and also needs to understand that sometimes peace and war have to go hand in hand. If you want to get poetic, embrace both sides of "fire and blood"--that which is destructive but also that which is creative and gives life.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think Dany could be a very good ruler. As you said, she is wiling to try different methods: violence, negotiation, and political alliances like marriage. She does need better council and also needs to understand that sometimes peace and war have to go hand in hand. If you want to get poetic, embrace both sides of "fire and blood"--that which is destructive but also that which is creative and gives life.

Well said :agree:

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I wanted to comment on the arrangement of the seating in the pit, I think it shows the social status of everyone in Meereen at the moment.

She had seen the fighting pits many times from her terrace. The small ones dotted the face of Meereen like pockmarks; the larger were weeping sores, red and raw. None compared to this one, though. Strong Belwas and Ser Barristan fell in to either side as she and her lord husband passed beneath the bronzes, to emerge at the top of a great brick bowl ringed by descending tiers of benches, each a different color. Hizdahr zo Loraq led her down, through black, purple, blue, green, white, yellow, and orange to the red, where the scarlet bricks took the color of the sands below.

Across the pit the Graces sat in flowing robes of many colors, clustered around the austere figure of Galazza Galare, who alone amongst them wore the green. The Great Masters of Meereen occupied the red and orange benches. The women were veiled, and the men had brushed and lacquered their hair into horns and hands and spikes. Hizdahr’s kin of the ancient line of Loraq seemed to favor tokars of purple and indigo and lilac, whilst those of Pahl were striped in pink and white. The envoys from Yunkai were all in yellow and filled the box beside the king’s, each of them with his slaves and servants. Meereenese of lesser birth crowded the upper tiers, more distant from the carnage. The black and purple benches, highest and most distant from the sand, were crowded with freedmen and other common folk. The sellswords had been placed up there as well, Daenerys saw, their captains seated right amongst the common soldiers.

This seating arrangement shows that the freedmen tied with the common folk are of the lowest social status, them being grouped with sellswords also shows they are seen as foreigners and not part of the city just like sellswords. This goes back to TMO's example of the freed slaves being in a similar spectrum to the African Americans after slavery was abolished in the United States, just like the African amercans despite freedom the freedmen are still not as equal as the rest of the citizens It also explains why the Sons of the Harpy kill every freeman that is rising up in the social hierachy of Meereen.

[SeanF]

MOIAF, Dany, Missandei, and Ser Barristan are pretty much alone in hating the fighting pits. Everyone else loves them, freed slaves as much as Great Masters. Irri and Jhiqi are just products of that culture. They're not especially stupid, simply Missandei is a child prodigy. I do find the relationship between her and Dany very touching. She's become a kind of younger sister.

The fighting pits are quite different to the tournaments and melees of Westeros. In the former, slaves, or ex-slaves, and animals fight to death. The latter can be lethal, or result in serious injuries, but it's the upper classes demonstrating their courage and fighting skills to the lower classes.

Dany's liking for the Dothraki probably has much to do with their personal courage. If you threatened a Master, he'd scream for his slaves and bodyguards to defend him. if you threatened a Dothraki, he'd tell you to bring it on.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We have to hold off for a few days on new chapters so that we can all catch up. There is plenty to discuss with the 3 last chapters posted for at least 3 or 4 more days. Is that ok? If we move the dates of the remaining upcoming chapters back a little?

[BearQueen87]

We have to hold off for a few days on new chapters so that we can all catch up. There is plenty to discuss with the 3 last chapters posted for at least 3 or 4 more days. Is that ok? If we move the dates of the remaining upcoming chapters back a little?

I'm okay with that. I know a few people have said that they need to get caught up on the non-Dany chapters.