So Varys and Illyrio deemed Viserys(and Dany) unworthy to know of Aegon's existence?

[Mithras]

Yeah, but who was feeding Robert the intel? It was Varys. All Varys had to do, if he wanted to keep Robert off their trail, was feed Robert false intel.

I think the point was Varys always needed to watch the exiles so that Illyrio (or Doran) would not have to contact them prematurely. They were just building a good alibi for themselves, probably not for Dany or Viserys but for those lords who are likely to question their "Targaryen love". After all, if Robert was not giving figs to the exile Targaryens, Illyrio should have done something for them, being the friend and servant of the "Targaryens" as he proclaims.

[Mithras]

I don't think they expected Viserys to get himself killed by Drogo, and there was really no way they could have saved him, but knowing Varys he was probably not too sorry that it happened. Viserys was proving too much like his father, and Dany proving a far better leader than they had expected.

It is pretty much implied (even stated) that Illyrio sent Dany and Viserys to their deaths by arranging the marriage to Drogo. He looked like a good friend who made a favor to Viserys to sell his daughter in return of an army. But for any one who knows the Dothraki Way, the truth is different. I wonder when Dany will realize that. She is in a position to deduce that much herself already.

[Pod The Impaler]

It is pretty much implied (even stated) that Illyrio sent Dany and Viserys to their deaths by arranging the marriage to Drogo. He loked like a good friend who made a favor to Viserys to sell his daughter in return of an army. But for any one who knows the Dothraki Way, the truth is different. I wonder when Dany will realize that.

But they wanted that Dothraki army, which if both died they would never secure.

[Mithras]

But they wanted that Dothraki army, which if both died they would never secure.

I don't buy that. Invading Westeros with a Dothraki horde is equal to saying goodbye to the support of everyone in Westeros.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If Viserys had found out he probably would have tried to have Aegon killed, for being the rightful heir to the throne. Illyrio probably knew this.

:agree: It would have been a shortcut to death for little Aeggy.

[Lee Daly]

They were known, so by introducing Aegon, questions would be raised

[Good Guy Garlan]

I've said this before, but screw it, I'll say it again:

If Varys and Illyrio wanted Dany and Viserys out of the picture, they took a risk by sending them to the Dothraki, not a BIG risk, but a significant one nonetheless.

See, obviously the odds of the Dothraki invading Westeros were almost unexistant, but let's say Drogo doesn't die and they invade. What happens?

I'll tell you what happens: Aegon loses the backbone of his forces. The Golden Company was planning on joining Dany, Viserys, and the Dothraki, so there goes that. Dorne likely declares for Viserys too, per the betrothal to Arianne.

So which army would Aegon use to beat the Targs and their savages in that scenario?

The plan was too risky, it could have gone wrong in so many ways. I think it would have been safer to silently dispose of the Targs in Illyrio's manse, bug that's because I'm not a big gambler myself.

[Mithras]

The Golden Company was planning on joining Dany, Viserys, and the Dothraki, so there goes that.

That is what the Golden Company believed, not necessarily what Illyrio planned in reality.

They are Targaryen haters yet they are trying to pass their boy as a "Targaryen". That requires a multi-dimensional game. They should appear as friendly to the Targaryens on the surface.

Their pawns know what they are supposed to know, nothing else.

[sweetsunray]

Robert was not the only threat to their survival, perhaps not even the main threat.

Not until Jon Arryn died, did Robert become a threat to Viserys and Dany. Jon Arryn had managed to convince him not to kill them and Robert went along. After Jon's death he brings it up again to Ned on the KR. Ned agrees with Jon's line of thinking and Robert drops it, until he learns Dany's preggers. And the assassin attempt isn't attempted until after Viserys is crowned already by Drogo, and Robert in fact has already died.

So, either Viserys' claims about assassins being sent after him are lies and exaggerations based on brawls he instigated himself OR Varys' had been acting all by himself.

[smashedhalo]

It's all a grand game of misdirection. Look at the pieces.

Viserys-Impatient, overconfident, hung up on his "Birthright", chip on his shoulder, never shown any real education, never shown any capacity to lead troops, believes the normal heavenly mandate i.e. right to rule ordained by god(s), can't see the long game. Case in point his plan is to use dothroki screamers to invade and subdue the westorsi lords. Riders that hate siege craft. Using the Qohar story, riders that will charge spearmen headlong for having the audacity to stand in their way.

Footnote-GRRM was going to kill him anyway so no need to give him substance.

(F)Aegon-shown to trained in sciences and histories by a (half)maester, trained in the ways of the faith by a (spoiled)septa, trained in arms by a (Duck)knight, and the ways of court by a exiled lord(15+ years out of the loop), taught that rule was his Duty with a smattering of his right, and only one given the tools to have a chance. While him being a BF are good odds they haven't really had anyone of note (JonCon is exiled when they tell him)to tell the smuggled baby story too until Tyrion goes on the lamb. Just watered enough with details that ring true for the seed of doubt to sprout. When they told JonCon he was looking for a way to get his honor back, water to a man dying of thirst.

Dany-a pawn until she gets out from under her brother, completely submissive until she gets a measure of protection for her to flesh out. The have Jorah there to give updates. Bonus she got the dragons to hatch(a probable long shot)

I think the plan was that Danny, running away from the Dothroki, would run back to pentos and illero, would then be told about (f)Aegon. A story of how Vicerys probably would have killed him would be told, sighting his irrational behavior and crafting his death on the plans to fit that narrative. Then a (damaged)dany meets aegon. Plan is updated when she starts getting a backbone. First the Mormont wants to do is flee when Drogo is dying. Could have gotten word at the market from illireo to get her out at the first chance by the by king bob is sending assassins.

Jorah later gets tired of their game and pushes dany to play the Game herself.

The whole time with the horse lords was meant to traumatize dany at worst, strengthen her at best, but mainly kill off Vicerys. And maybe, with a snowball's chance in hell, get some dragons out of Vicerys death. Kings blood is needed to "wake the dragon".

[Good Guy Garlan]

That is what the Golden Company believed, not necessarily what Illyrio planned in reality.

They are Targaryen haters yet they are trying to pass their boy as a "Targaryen". That requires a multi-dimensional game. They should appear as friendly to the Targaryens on the surface.

Their pawns know what they are supposed to know, nothing else.

Well, yes, I still don't see why Dany and Viserys couldn't have been killed in secret with no one finding out, but let's say it was for PR purposes (though I'm not convinced, but whatever)

My point is that both the Golden Company and House Martell would have joined Viserys had he lived, leaving Aegon with zero of his sure-fire allies

So Viserys and Dany had to die, that much is clear. But I'm not sure I would have let them out of my hands so easily. Like I said, that's in my opinion the riskiest part of the plan. And frankly it was unnecessary: Varys and Illyrio would still look like Targ supporters just from protecting Aegon, they could have come up with a ton of excuses for not being able to protect Dany and Vis (the Usurper had them watched, they were crazy like Aerys, etc)

[WeaselPie]

I've said this before, but screw it, I'll say it again:

If Varys and Illyrio wanted Dany and Viserys out of the picture, they took a risk by sending them to the Dothraki, not a BIG risk, but a significant one nonetheless.

See, obviously the odds of the Dothraki invading Westeros were almost unexistant, but let's say Drogo doesn't die and they invade. What happens?

I'll tell you what happens: Aegon loses the backbone of his forces. The Golden Company was planning on joining Dany, Viserys, and the Dothraki, so there goes that. Dorne likely declares for Viserys too, per the betrothal to Arianne.

So which army would Aegon use to beat the Targs and their savages in that scenario?

The plan was too risky, it could have gone wrong in so many ways. I think it would have been safer to silently dispose of the Targs in Illyrio's manse, bug that's because I'm not a big gambler myself.

Aegon needed to come of age and be ready. Westeros needed to be ready for him, including the turmoil on the Iron Throne.

I appreciate your viewpoint, but Dany and Viserys were placed pointedly away from Westeros with the Dothraki marriage and army. When KL was in upheavel with the death of two kings and the whole of Westeros was at war, it was time for Aegon.

Illyrio expected Dany to die. Viserys could always have had an accident, or he could have been back up for Aegon.

They never expected Dany to hatch Dragons.

[Michael Snow]

I'm trying to remember if Ilyrio or Varys ever mention the marriage pact made between Viserys and Arianne Martell - did they know about that pact, as far as we readers have been told?

[jobmartell]

The thing about secrets is that the more people who know, the less secret it is. Especially children.

three people can keep a secret if two are dead.

[Michael Snow]

It is pretty much implied (even stated) that Illyrio sent Dany and Viserys to their deaths by arranging the marriage to Drogo. He looked like a good friend who made a favor to Viserys to sell his daughter in return of an army. But for any one who knows the Dothraki Way, the truth is different. I wonder when Dany will realize that. She is in a position to deduce that much herself already.

No, Ilyrio asked Viserys to stay with him in his mansion specifically to prevent him from getting himself killed by the Dothraki. Viserys insisted on going with Drogo, and got himself crowned, throwing a wrench into a few plans.

[Ingelheim]

As far as I'm concerned, I've stopped trying to know why both Illyrio and Varys do the things that they do.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Aegon needed to come of age and be ready. Westeros needed to be ready for him, including the turmoil on the Iron Throne.

I appreciate your viewpoint, but Dany and Viserys were placed pointedly away from Westeros with the Dothraki marriage and army. When KL was in upheavel with the death of two kings and the whole of Westeros was at war, it was time for Aegon.

Illyrio expected Dany to die. Viserys could always have had an accident, or he could have been back up for Aegon.

They never expected Dany to hatch Dragons.

I'm not talking about the dragons, because clearly no could have foreseen that.

I'm talking about a good old fashion Dothraki invasion, which, against all odds, almost happened, had it not been for Drogo getting whacked.

Like I said, it's not that it really was a HUGE risk, but it was a risk, and it could have undone years of planning. Varys and Illyrio got lucky, is what I'm saying

Also, I don't see why bring up the timing issue. Obviously Varys and Illyrio were bidding their time with Aegon.

I'm trying to remember if Ilyrio or Varys ever mention the marriage pact made between Viserys and Arianne Martell - did they know about that pact, as far as we readers have been told?

I think Martin once said they didn't know about the pact, but in my opinion it would make more sense if they had.

It would explain why the sudden interest in sheltering Viserys and sending him away, to preventing Doran from contact him (if he was ever gonna do it)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

As far as I'm concerned, I've stopped trying to know why both Illyrio and Varys do the things that they do.

I think the critical thing is that they both adapt. Even if the main focus stays the same (I think it has always been about Aegon, and everything and everyone else is incidental), the parts are still moving. That's why Illyrio (and Varys, presumably) were happy to send Dany and Viserys off to the Dothraki Sea, but Illyrio then later changed gears and tried to get Dany back to Pentos when she hatched her dragons. I think it's a mistake to assume that the plan in place in the beginning is still the plan now, even if the end game hasn't changed.

[Hrafntýr]

This. I think they wanted Dany and Viserys basically to die.

What I was asking in my original post was how would Aegon feel if he found out Varys who saved his life as a child, led his aunt and uncle to basically die in the hands of the Dothraki. Varys also fed all kinds of info to the small council in Westeros to get Robert to try and poison her which he eventually succeeded, seems to me that they are looking out for Aegon politically, but personally their being dicks and killing off his last remaining family.

I wonder what Aegon would do if this info gets told to him. Can anyone be knowledgeable? I guess all of the members of the original small council is dead except Varys, Barristan, and Littlefinger .....

Hmm, this is a very interesting line of investigation, because it possibly calls into question what Ilyrio expected to happen when Aegon and Dany met. Because if the two of them actually sat down for a heart-to-heart, swapping stories of their upbringing, both of them might have reason to question Ilyrio (and Varys') intentions.

@Jon of the (Evil) Dead: your point, that "selling" Dany to the Dothraki if they wanted her dead is a risky plan, is interesting, because it suggests that they didn't necessarily want her dead. Maybe, as smashedhalo suggests, they wanted her "broken" and dependent. Some have suggested that Dany was their back-up plan, should Aegon fail (presuming that they aren't hard-core Blackfyres, totally opposed to a Targ on the throne). What it makes me wonder is how the two of them feel about dragons (of the nonhuman variety). I agree that they didn't anticipate the hatching of dragons, but are they AGAINST dragons? We see this linking in Targ history of Targ "genetic" purity, the dragonblood, being ideologically linked to dragonriding. If Ilyrio and Varys are not opposed to that whole ideology, then they might have wanted to keep Dany alive as a future bride for Aegon. But we also know that Targ incest has always been unpopular in Westeros among everyone except the Targs, so it may be that they would prefer a "Targaryen" dynasty from from which that whole "dragon" business has been cleansed, in which case they wouldn't want for there to be a potential Targ bride available in principle. Which then returns us to your point: why not just kill Dany and Viserys off earlier on? I guess the "distraction" argument has some force here: the known Targs can mask the hidden Aegon.

[sweetsunray]

No, Ilyrio asked Viserys to stay with him in his mansion specifically to prevent him from getting himself killed by the Dothraki. Viserys insisted on going with Drogo, and got himself crowned, throwing a wrench into a few plans.

Ilyrio might have known well enough that Viserys would do as he wanted, and that urging him to stay would have the opposite effect: Nobody tells the dragon what to do. Opposite psychology. Had Ilyrio urged Viserys to go, then it would have been more likely that Viserys would have stayed in Pentos.