The Riverlands Web

[Yeade]

Some of the work done on the Brotherhood Without Banners and other potential Stark loyalists in the Riverlands for the Grand Northern Conspiracy might interest you, OP. A good start would be Lady Gwynhyfvar's review of events from the surrender of Riverrun to Jaime's disappearance from Pennytree, and nenya~ has already undertaken a task much like the one you've set yourself with a timeline analysis of the BWB's movements.

Harwin is currently with LS and the BWB, seemingly translating the mumbled speech of UnCat for Brienne.

One of the minor points discussed in the GNC threads is that the northman in the sheepskin jerkin at Brienne's trial (Brienne VIII, AFFC) is never named or even described with any distinguishing characteristics. He is often assumed to be Harwin but may, in fact, not be Harwin at all. My favorite alternative is Hallis Mollen, Jory Cassel's appointed successor as Winterfell's captain of guards.

Not only does Hal march south with Robb's host, but he specifically requests command of Catelyn's honor guard at the Whispering Wood and again joins her escort when she goes to treat with Renly at Bitterbridge (Catelyn II-IV, ACOK). The latter in particular means Hal knows firsthand how Catelyn meets Brienne and may even have witnessed Brienne's oath of service, sworn on the return road shortly before they arrive at Riverrun (Catelyn V, ACOK).

In ACOK, Hal's charged with seeing Ned's bones safely north to Winterfell, but he apparently isn't there yet, three books and a year later. Common speculation says Ned's funeral procession is stopped by--who else?--Howland Reed in the Neck, with Hal a guest stranded indefinitely at Greywater Watch. The very same place where Lady Stoneheart, accompanied by Lem and Jack-Be-Lucky, is also theorized to have sought refuge, disappearing into the swamps after hanging Merrett Frey with Black Walder in pursuit (Jaime IV, AFFC).

Admittedly, my ulterior motive, lol, for casting Hal as the unknown northman is so the timeline is looser for Harwin to be the hooded man in Winterfell. There is, however, a certain narrative neatness to this arrangement, IMO. In that Hal returning to Lady Stark's side and Harwin riding to Ramsay Bolton's wedding to confirm Arya's identity draws upon and extends the roles these two side characters have already played. Harwin's run-in with Arya and the seven chapters (Arya II-VIII, ASOS) he spends in her company would serve a greater purpose, as would Hal's apparent dedication to Catelyn's protection and his accompanying her south for several chapters.

[Hallis Mollen] had asked for the honor of protecting [Catelyn] in the battle [Whispering Wood] to come; it was his right, as Winterfell's captain of guards, and Robb had not refused it to him. (Catelyn X, AGOT)

Just food for thought! ^_^

[Dya of Oldstones]

Thanks booknerd2 for starting this thread, and everyone else for such great material. I often wish my research and essay skills were much better than they are, and I think the Riverlands gets overlooked a bit on the forums.

BTW, maybe not a full weirwood, but I think Quiet Isle has a cave with weirwood roots in it. Maybe Elder Brother has a Weir Wide Web login and password too? ;)

[ARYa_Nym]

The weirwood is why some speculated that Nymeria might be in the North.

" She woke with a gasp, not knowing who she was, or where.

The smell of blood was heavy in her nostrils… or was that her nightmare, lingering? She had dreamed of wolves again, of running through some dark pine forest with a great pack at her hells, hard on the scent of prey.

Half-light filled the room, grey and gloomy. Shivering, she sat up in bed and ran a hand across her scalp. Stubble bristled against her palm. I need to shave before Izembaro sees. Mercy, I’m Mercy, and tonight I’ll be raped and murdered. Her true name was Mercedene, but Mercy was all anyone ever called her…

Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what she’d dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran."

They thought the type of tree indicated the north. I think there are some pine trees in the Riverlands but there's definitely a lot of that type of tree in the north and a tree (either Bran or BR) was watching her. They thought it was Bran because it was said in her dreams she's called something else and Bran is more likely to call out for her. Arya still is having Mercy's nightmares because of the psychological effect face changing has so she wouldn't be as aware of what is going on. To Mercy the dreams are a nightmare. But anyways Bran is not said to be at the point where he can see through any tree and Mercy not Arya would be unable to recognize a weirwood so she is likely being watched through a weirwood.

[Booknerd2]

Just an update:

I put a little Under Construction tag in the OP. I think that I am going to stop there with the people for now, once I complete their profiles.

I will work on bull helm, Hound helm, and places next.

I will be off the Forum for the next day or so. But I think what we could do is take a look at points and some of the alternative suggestions, ideas, and stuff we wanted to explore from the other thread. Time to get the ball rolling and a bit of direction/momentum.

Maybe take one issue at at time, and when it is exhausted, move on to the next?

Think about it, and I will be back in two days. Mini-vaca…relatives would be pissed if I'm checking laptop and posting…lol!

Just a small few of many samples/examples that came up on that other thread:

1. We focused on Brienne and whether or not she is or would lie to Jaime. We tried to predict what the hell she is trying to do, and how she can balance all this out and make it work. Jaime, Hyle, Pod, LS, BWB, etc. It was interesting to note that she is just one of many using the Hound "name" and reputation as an excuse. But some postulate, maybe not.

Which leads to 2.

2. It was brought up as an idea that maybe the Hound did leave the QI already. We mentioned Stranger's frustration and how he sometimes is a reflection of Sandor. Also, what do you do on the QI for the rest of your life? Keep bussing and/or darn socks? Him? Girl he loves is out there missing...

3. We threw out there the possibility that the Hound would follow Brienne, meet up with her, work together, etc. We wanted to explore the likelihood even more.

Now there are also some future topics that would be cool to explore. And there are many more with other OP people involved. But I wrote a lot for Gendry, Arya, on RR with essays, so I can throw in two off the top of my head, stuff I wondered and even included in my old essays.

- Does Thoros already know who Gendry is?

- Yes, there is a vow of silence, and EB commented that he likes to keep news of the outside world, outside…but is that not exactly the truth and he has told Sandor some things, or Sandor has been gleaning bits of news here and there, and knows more than we think?

- Is Brienne going to get a chance to tell Gendry his identity? How does this affect the people in the OP?

_What is going on at the Orphanage? Has EB used info from Sandor to update BWB on Arya and Sansa?

-We have Hot Pie, who knows Arya and Gendry very well. He knows BWB too. He is in the Riverlands, but at another Inn. He had a lot of time in the series, he's a loved character (very funny), could be come back later for a roll (pun) role to play to identify or even meet up Arya again, or something. Cute irony that he is working at the Inn named for a Stark.

Of course there is more, but why overload? I think best to tackle one or a couple at a time.

Some more likely than others, but we are going to look at any possible alternatives and take it from there.

[LongRider]

The weirwood is why some speculated that Nymeria might be in the North.

Thanks ARYa-Nym. My poorly articulated point was, once Arya left the Riverlands, perhaps Nym did too. And since Weirwoods are rare in the RL's, your spoiler does point north.

[Hrafntýr]

Thanks ARYa-Nym. My poorly articulated point was, once Arya left the Riverlands, perhaps Nym did too. And since Weirwoods are rare in the RL's, your spoiler does point north.

I believe the last known location of Big Nyms was north of Riverrun. In Jaime's last chapter in AFfC the party sent out to search for the Blackfish comes back, after having been attacked by wolves; one of the party, before he died, reported that "the pack was led by a she-wolf of monstrous size. A direwolf, to hear him tell it." In ADwD we just get Arya's wolf-dream that could be anyplace, with the snows starting to fall, and food getting scarcer, and Ghost's vision of her in someplace with hills, where it's warmer than the Wall and where there is plenty of food.

But it's true that the WoW spoiler that ARYa_Nym shared could imply a change of locale to someplace with a weirwood; we've heard so many times about the fact that there aren't weirwoods in the south; on the other hand, the young weirwood in the Whispers caused me to question how true that really is.

[ARYa_Nym]

^Arya has come across a weirwood in the Riverlands. But I think a weirwood that is located in a dark forest is more likely to be in the north as well as the pine trees (although there are some in the south).

As an example:

The wolfswood is a large forest in the North named for the great many wolves one can hear howling in the night.^[1] It is made up of oak, evergreen and black brier,^[1] as well as sentinels, soldier pines, and hawthorn,^[2] beech, ash, chestnuts, ironwoods, and firs.^[3]Weirwoods are occasionally found isolated or in pairs.^[4] It contains abundant timber.^[5]Besides wolves, other animals living in the wolfswood include boar, deer, elk, badgers, rabbits, foxes, and bears.^[2]

[Wizz-The-Smith]

One of the minor points discussed in the GNC threads is that the northman in the sheepskin jerkin at Brienne's trial (Brienne VIII, AFFC) is never named or even described with any distinguishing characteristics. He is often assumed to be Harwin but may, in fact, not be Harwin at all. My favorite alternative is Hallis Mollen, Jory Cassel's appointed successor as Winterfell's captain of guards.

Not only does Hal march south with Robb's host, but he specifically requests command of Catelyn's honor guard at the Whispering Wood and again joins her escort when she goes to treat with Renly at Bitterbridge (Catelyn II-IV, ACOK). The latter in particular means Hal knows firsthand how Catelyn meets Brienne and may even have witnessed Brienne's oath of service, sworn on the return road shortly before they arrive at Riverrun (Catelyn V, ACOK).

In ACOK, Hal's charged with seeing Ned's bones safely north to Winterfell, but he apparently isn't there yet, three books and a year later. Common speculation says Ned's funeral procession is stopped by--who else?--Howland Reed in the Neck, with Hal a guest stranded indefinitely at Greywater Watch. The very same place where Lady Stoneheart, accompanied by Lem and Jack-Be-Lucky, is also theorized to have sought refuge, disappearing into the swamps after hanging Merrett Frey with Black Walder in pursuit (Jaime IV, AFFC).

Admittedly, my ulterior motive, lol, for casting Hal as the unknown northman is so the timeline is looser for Harwin to be the hooded man in Winterfell. There is, however, a certain narrative neatness to this arrangement, IMO. In that Hal returning to Lady Stark's side and Harwin riding to Ramsay Bolton's wedding to confirm Arya's identity draws upon and extends the roles these two side characters have already played. Harwin's run-in with Arya and the seven chapters (Arya II-VIII, ASOS) he spends in her company would serve a greater purpose, as would Hal's apparent dedication to Catelyn's protection and his accompanying her south for several chapters.

[Hallis Mollen] had asked for the honor of protecting [Catelyn] in the battle [Whispering Wood] to come; it was his right, as Winterfell's captain of guards, and Robb had not refused it to him. (Catelyn X, AGOT)

Just food for thought! ^_^

Hmm, that is food for thought ! My feelings were, as we know Harwin to be a '' Young Northerner '', the description was adequate. [ We're seeing him through a beaten + tired Brienne's POV ]. Add to this he is listed in AFFC appendix as still being a member of LS group. Also in the same chapter / conversation Thoros mentioned Harwin begging him to give a 3 day dead Catlyn the kiss of life. My take on that was, it helped put a name to who the '' Young Northerner '' was for the reader.

Also if Hal was present when Brienne swore her oath to Catlyn, wouldn't Brienne recognise Hal ?, or both recognise each other ? Perhaps leading to some dialogue on this matter ? Maybe not.

However, you make some good points. And if indeed The Neck was the destination of LS and gang after the hanging of Merrett Frey, then there is a chance they have met up with a stranded Hallis Mollen. And I love the point about the 7 chapters Harwin spent with Arya and Hal's dedication to Catlyn serving a greater purpose to the story if Harwin is the Hooded Man, and Hal is with LS.

I think I'll stick with Harwin for now, because of the AFFC Appendix, the Young Northerner description and my take on the way the name 'Harwin' is dropped in the text as an explanation for the reader. But it's fair to say that has made me think and Hal should definitely be considered.

[RavenKing23]

Just to add to the web, Lyle Crakehal is Hound Hunting, he could stumble on the BwB

[three-eyed monkey]

Personally I think it is more likely that Hallis is the hooded man in Winterfell and Harwin is still with LS. Just my opinion, but as Hal was charged with returning Ned's bones to the crypt I think that's what he will attempt to do. Hal liked to play dice, and while I imagine it is quite a common game, it has been mentioned that one of the Walders (I forget which one, big I think, who was small???) was dicing with men from White Harbour. Maybe a clue? I know Hal is not a White Harbour man, but he could be posing as one as it is unlikely that he's walking around Winterfell with a direwolf stiched to his chest at this time.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Personally I think it is more likely that Hallis is the hooded man in Winterfell and Harwin is still with LS. Just my opinion, but as Hal was charged with returning Ned's bones to the crypt I think that's what he will attempt to do. Hal liked to play dice, and while I imagine it is quite a common game, it has been mentioned that one of the Walders (I forget which one, big I think, who was small???) was dicing with men from White Harbour. Maybe a clue? I know Hal is not a White Harbour man, but he could be posing as one as it is unlikely that he's walking around Winterfell with a direwolf stiched to his chest at this time.

:agree:

And nice catch with Hal possibly playing dice at Winterfell. Also if Hallis and co were to avoid any trouble at Moat Cailin and still move North, they could take a boat across The Bite. And from there the nearest place geographically is White Harbour. Could fit in well with Hal being with the White Harbour men.

[Le Cygne]

Stranger - Badass horse of Sandor Clegane House Clegane - Allegiance to Sandor - No one else can go near him risking personal injury/loss of body parts - ex: ear - hates everyone but Sandor - Knows Sansa and Arya - Knows Jaime -Knows Thoros - Knows Gendry - Knows BWB - Saw Brienne briefly as she walked into his stable (he would say "jail") - hates Sandor's Novice Brother Halloween Costume - wants to keep his "bits" - grateful in a way that his stable stall is not near the others - unable to be gelded - unable to be handled/cared for by anyone but Sandor - Advice: Don't even try! Not looking particularly for Sansa and Arya but will most likely agree to if his owner will get a move on already and get him the hell off the QI. Actually, the horse will probably agree to anything at this point for freedom. Current Status: Eye-rolling and attempting to kick the damn stable door down at the QI, or he would say "jail."

:lmao: I love this part! Still reading but here's a link with views of Saltpans and the Quiet Isle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCXMqBtcjPw

[Lady Fevre Dream]

:lmao: I love this part! Still reading but here's a link with views of Saltpans and the Quiet Isle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCXMqBtcjPw

I owe ya all some serious, and not so serious, thoughts and posts on this thread, it's just been a bad few days, time wise and thought organizing wise, LOL

I just wanted to thank you for the link, I'm off to check it out now. Stranger, AND the bits.........never forget the bits, need a get out of jail free card. It needs to come with a pass, too, good for one slightly grumpy, no longer hung over, passenger. :crying:

[Booknerd2]

:lmao: I love this part! Still reading but here's a link with views of Saltpans and the Quiet Isle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCXMqBtcjPw

Thank you! THAT is a gem. I had no idea these videos existed. They are helpful and nice to get a good idea/visual of these places.

Now…You know, I was waiting for the voiceover to say something when he got to the part of the stables...

"And now here we have the stables. That erratic black horse with a nasty temper that is apparently attempting to break free is Stranger. Stranger smile for the camera. Excuse me, no off-color gestures, please."

LOL!

Surprised, he needs to add a stable door getting barraged with hoof prints and a banging noise. Perhaps it can be edited into the video.

If anyone saw that video, I could have sworn I saw flares and an SOS sign in the ground. Stranger…he's that good.

LOL!

[Booknerd2]

I owe ya all some serious, and not so serious, thoughts and posts on this thread, it's just been a bad few days, time wise and thought organizing wise, LOL

I just wanted to thank you for the link, I'm off to check it out now. Stranger, AND the bits.........never forget the bits, need a get out of jail free card. It needs to come with a pass, too, good for one slightly grumpy, no longer hung over, passenger. :crying:

Oh, I have to get started writing something too…I was away for like almost two days.

I don't know who or what point to start with first, and I still have to update the OP.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Oh, I have to get started writing something too…I was away for like almost two days.

I don't know who or what point to start with first, and I still have to update the OP.

Ha ! Take your time booknerd2, I for one hope this conversation is, as you have previously suggested, ongoing. So much to study and discuss. :cheers:

[LongRider]

I owe ya all some serious, and not so serious, thoughts and posts on this thread, it's just been a bad few days, time wise and thought organizing wise, LOL

I just wanted to thank you for the link, I'm off to check it out now. Stranger, AND the bits.........never forget the bits, need a get out of jail free card. It needs to come with a pass, too, good for one slightly grumpy, no longer hung over, passenger. :crying:

Take care of yourself.

Oh, I have to get started writing something too…I was away for like almost two days.

I don't know who or what point to start with first, and I still have to update the OP.

Glad you're back, hope you had fun with the homeys. Rest up!

[Karmarni]

Booknerd2, great thread. It's quite a task though. The Riverlands Web is a wide one, and more than an interesting one. And thank you for including Stranger. I do believe that horse has enough material in the books to have had a chapter of his own. And short of GRRM doing it, I would definitely read your 'chapter.' LOL!

[Booknerd2]

Ha ! Take your time booknerd2, I for one hope this conversation is, as you have previously suggested, ongoing. So much to study and discuss. :cheers:

Thanks!

Totally. This is going to be on-going. We are good up until book 6 for time, seriously. LOL! It would be nice to have something until then and see if were were wrong, close, right, or way off!

This is going to take a lot of prep, review, checking notes, and some people I've posted with are better versed in certain characters than others, so we'll take it a piece at at time.

[Booknerd2]

Take care of yourself.

Glad you're back, hope you had fun with the homeys. Rest up!

Thank you. I am going to pick a topic first and write a mini intro/prompt to get rolling. I think something small, and a little speculative nugget to warm up. I am going to take a little risk and pull something from my essays on RR.

The big ones like the QI, Brienne, Hound, LS, etc. people can just add when they want, but we can build up to the bigger things we questioned or gave opinions on too.