The return of the Feminism thread - Time of War edition

[Liffguard]

First, thanks to Liffguard for the title. He told me about this panel he'd been to when they'd discussed among other things Fantasy authors' tendency to ignore such things as some sort of agriculture to sustain the opulation. (Liffguard if you want to tell the story properly feel free, it was great :P )

Don't mind if I do.

The panel itself was actually really interesting, and not strictly a feminism-centric panel though the topic did come up. It was about so-called "realism" in fantasy as opposed to actually real historical trends. The initial topic was concerning the more recent "gritty" fantasy (and ASOIAF was mentioned) and how the idea of historic people all being filthy, miserable, stupid, ignorant, downtrodden peasants is no more "realistic" than more light-hearted high fantasy. Medieval peasants didn't have the same quality of life as modern first-world citizens, sure, but they had music and decoration and stories and friendship and in-jokes and laughter just the same as everyone else.

There were other topics discussed, like how women have never been powerless objects even in oppressive societies and that modern conceptions of historical women with "agency" seem to be limited to warriors and warlords. Anyway, at one point further on one of the panellists remarked about how empty Middle-Earth seemed, and where were the farmers and merchants and all of the people necessary to actually run a society? At which point one lone gentleman at the front stands up and proclaims (with waggin finger pointed high) "BUT IT WAS A TIME OF WAR!" I don't like to negatively stereotype nerds. I am a massive nerd. But he had the most stereotypical, lipsy, nassaly voice you ever did hear. From now on whenever someone points out something incongruant in something I like I will loudly announce to the heavens, "nope, doesn't count...FOR IT WAS A TIME OF WAR!" before running away whilst snickering.

[Galactus]

At the same time, characters like Glokta, Tyrion, Locke Lamora and Miles Vorkosigan are so extremely popular and definitely not just among female fans, I imagine. Are they anomalies or Unique Snowflake characters or something else?

I think it's the fact that they're both in some way "badass" enough that they can give you that "Power fantasy" rush. ("Tyrion so TOTALLY PWNED with his witty one-liners!") and at the same time can allow people to soothe their egos a bit.

Still, I wouldn't overstate it: Tyrion, Glokta, etc. still have a lot of traditional "manly virtues" even if they lose out on some of the more obvious ones. (incidentally, when thinking of "Emasculated male characters" the one that immediately comes to mind is Shinji Ikari from Neon Genesis Evangelion, and people's relationship with him tends be... complicated. )

EDIT: Continuing kinda on the Evangelion thing, that one was a big hit and a thing, and of course it got it's imitators, one of them is one of my favourite shows, RahXephon (that I tried to make Datepalm watch but she refuses, even though I've watched four seasons of Buffy! :p) for unrelated reasons, but my DVD's had some interviews. One of them was with the director, who basically saw that Evangelion was kind of popular with girls as well, so he thought "Sure, let's make our main character like that, but make him a bit cuter as well." And from the VA of said main character who noted that most of his voice-acting involved screaming in horror/pain/angst :p

[karaddin]

Another of the feminist panels was the Beyond Bechdel one on the Thursday night. As it was the end of the first day and directly followed by drinking on not enough food, I don't remember much beyond it was one of the really good ones. They were discussing the shortcomings of it (really isn't a good tool for analysing feminist content of an individual film, is more aimed at analysing the industry as a whole), attempts to coin a bechdel test for other groups (people of colour, LGBTQI individuals etc). The attempt to do a "new" bechdel test to make it so Pacific Rim would pass (the Mako Maori test) which in reality it would still fail, and the associated tendency of people to snatch onto scraps of representation as being fantastic because they are so rare and ignore that they are far less than what there should be.

When they opened the floor to questions we had an old while male (*gasp* *surprise*) get up to mansplain exactly what they had already covered in the previous 30 minutes, because obviously it hadn't been said by him yet so it hadn't been said. He probably hogged over 5 minutes of the panel time and half the audience was audibly groaning when he wouldn't shut up and interrupted the panel when they were attempting to respond to him.

Had a really good guy on the panel though who was the picture of how to be respectful as a guy on a panel like that.

I should have a lot more to say, but a lot of it has already been covered. Basically a decent amount of the content convinced me I should become an academic though, because I could totally have been on half these panels (I'm not at all arrogant :p).

I had a wonderful moment on the flight from Singapore to Sydney (after the 14 hours from London to Singapore) where the guy next to be mansplained that I had to press the power button to turn on the in flight entertainment system when it was already on. Apparently someone who doesn't even know that the viewing angle on those screens is tiny (and I believe it's intentionally so) feels qualified to tell the poor dumb woman how to turn on the device. I just looked at Brook and seethed. We also had a wonderful piece of condescension before we left in the first place, we were standing still waiting for a cab to the airport with our bags and a guy walking past asked if we were OK. When we didn't immediately reply, he stopped walking and asked again, insisting that we must answer him. I'm still new enough to this shit that I remember it and it infuriates me. It's not like we are fucking struggling up stairs, we are standing still waiting to hail a cab, and the cabbie will lift the bags for us poor delicate womenfolk.

While the Aussie academic doing the analysis of Bujold had some decent observations to make, I felt she was too fixated on the idea that to still be a woman the character needs to be a mother. There are models of womanhood that aren't just shallow imitations of men that also don't include being a mother. She also seemed completely oblivious to the fact that terminology which might have been OK or even progressive 20-30 years ago can be problematic and offensive now. I can be OK with still using it, but you need to give a disclaimer that it is problematic.

The feminism in fandom one was very feminism 101 and less about specific issues in fandom and how it can be addressed. Like Lyanna I walked out of it feeling like we are clearly way ahead on here. More thoughts when my brain is working.

[danro]

I think it's the fact that they're both in some way "badass" enough that they can give you that "Power fantasy" rush. ("Tyrion so TOTALLY PWNED with his witty one-liners!") and at the same time can allow people to soothe their egos a bit.

Still, I wouldn't overstate it: Tyrion, Glokta, etc. still have a lot of traditional "manly virtues" even if they lose out on some of the more obvious ones. (incidentally, when thinking of "Emasculated male characters" the one that immediately comes to mind is Shinji Ikari from Neon Genesis Evangelion, and people's relationship with him tends be... complicated. )

Agreed, Tyrion and Glockta both have agency. Through wit, resourcefullness and ruthlessness they (sometimes successfully) struggle against impossible odds.

But Abercrombie in particular has plenty of emasculated males. In fact I count most of his martial badasses in that chategory. They are all playing out their narrow little parts while wishing for other things that are constantly out of their reach,

Logen Ninefingers, Shivers and Bremer Dan Gorst all set out on quests to be better people. All ultimately fail and accepts being nothing more than the vicious thugs and monsters others see them as.

Jezal may be a handsome and dashing swordsman, and eventually crowned king of the Union. But both the reader and the himself are aware that he's just a pawn of others and never in control of his own fate.

[Lyanna Stark]

From now on whenever someone points out something incongruant in something I like I will loudly announce to the heavens, "nope, doesn't count...FOR IT WAS A TIME OF WAR!" before running away whilst snickering.

Legend! :D

Galactus,

I have to admit I don't read or watch Manga (I made an exception for Sailor Moon many years ago :P ) so am not very familiar with it. At the very least, it seems to be a somewhat self-contained form of art that sometimes overlaps with novels, sometimes with TV-series/movies and often with games and comics.

While the Aussie academic doing the analysis of Bujold had some decent observations to make, I felt she was too fixated on the idea that to still be a woman the character needs to be a mother. There are models of womanhood that aren't just shallow imitations of men that also don't include being a mother. She also seemed completely oblivious to the fact that terminology which might have been OK or even progressive 20-30 years ago can be problematic and offensive now. I can be OK with still using it, but you need to give a disclaimer that it is problematic.

I agree with all of that. She often felt second-wavey? (if you can use that as an expression). "Shards of honor", the first Vorkosigan novel, was written in 1986 so it makes sense that the terminology used back then would be lacking today, but she didn't seem to even consider that even when she was up to date on many other parts of the terminology (since she was at one point discussion cis-perspective I believe). It just felt somewhat disjointed because of the back-and-forth of the terminology, and also with the strong focus on motherhood.

Maybe it means that reality has caught up with Bujold, finally, and when it did the terminology has changed. :P I can add that even if the terminology is ancient in the novels, the characters are still treated with respect. In the case of Bel Thorne for instance, the main point about him (I always want to use the masculine pronoun, not sure why but it may have to do with that a lot of the supporting cast is female) is that he is extremely competent and talented with a strong personal motivation and a moral compass that sometimes is strong enough to be outright idealistic.

This I think the presenter failed to really get into, that even though the terminology is outdated (and can be discussed using modern terminology), the way Bel and other what I'd call "non-binary" characters or characters with non-traditional gender characeristics are described, it is always in a sympathetic light with their personalities at the forefront. POV characters may be shocked, or stunned or react with prejudice, but they are in that case eventually set right.

The feminism in fandom one was very feminism 101 and less about specific issues in fandom and how it can be addressed. Like Lyanna I walked out of it feeling like we are clearly way ahead on here. More thoughts when my brain is working.

I'm just sad we didn't get to hear trainwreck dude and what he had to say. I bet it was awesome. :P

[sologdin]

ly, thanks for the cordelia's honor bits. initially thought y'all were talking about king lear and responded hurhnwtf?

[Gneisenau]

EDIT: Continuing kinda on the Evangelion thing, that one was a big hit and a thing, and of course it got it's imitators, one of them is one of my favourite shows, RahXephon (that I tried to make Datepalm watch but she refuses, even though I've watched four seasons of Buffy! :P) for unrelated reasons, but my DVD's had some interviews. One of them was with the director, who basically saw that Evangelion was kind of popular with girls as well, so he thought "Sure, let's make our main character like that, but make him a bit cuter as well." And from the VA of said main character who noted that most of his voice-acting involved screaming in horror/pain/angst :P

How to draw Shinji, but seriously, most anime/manga characters are a few pencils strokes away from being genderbendered.

[Galactus]

I have to admit I don't read or watch Manga (I made an exception for Sailor Moon many years ago :P ) so am not very familiar with it. At the very least, it seems to be a somewhat self-contained form of art that sometimes overlaps with novels, sometimes with TV-series/movies and often with games and comics.

While anime/manga has problems with women, sex, relationsips, gender roles etc. (oh god do they have problems! Which does not mean everything is problematic of course, but it's definitely very systematic and noticeable) I think precisely in the particular thing that they sometimes allow for a slightly more nuanced form of masculinity is rather interesting.

[Yersinia]

Should I be feeling guilty that, even though I'm a woman, I know next to nothing about feminism? Thanks for the fascinating thread, though. I'll try to read some of the background info if I get time.

[Lyanna Stark]

Should I be feeling guilty that, even though I'm a woman, I know next to nothing about feminism? Thanks for the fascinating thread, though. I'll try to read some of the background info if I get time.

That's simply an opportunity to learn more. :) We're not really taught a lot about feminism and how women got the vote, how laws were changed etc. since it's for some reason not considered very important. Or something.

This link has a comprehensive history and introduction which could be useful to start out with.

While anime/manga has problems with women, sex, relationsips, gender roles etc. (oh god do they have problems! Which does not mean everything is problematic of course, but it's definitely very systematic and noticeable) I think precisely in the particular thing that they sometimes allow for a slightly more nuanced form of masculinity is rather interesting.

I think karaddin may have interesting things to say about that! :)

As for issues with women, sex etc. don't you think that's tied in with cultural issues as well? It's no secret that Japan is lagging behind most of the Western world when it comes to issues of equality and gender roles.

[Gneisenau]

Should I be feeling guilty that, even though I'm a woman, I know next to nothing about feminism? Thanks for the fascinating thread, though. I'll try to read some of the background info if I get time.

Trivially no, if you came from a really improvised region lacking eduction how could anyone expect you to be educated ?

[Lyanna Stark]

Agreed, Tyrion and Glockta both have agency. Through wit, resourcefullness and ruthlessness they (sometimes successfully) struggle against impossible odds.

But Abercrombie in particular has plenty of emasculated males. In fact I count most of his martial badasses in that chategory. They are all playing out their narrow little parts while wishing for other things that are constantly out of their reach,

Logen Ninefingers, Shivers and Bremer Dan Gorst all set out on quests to be better people. All ultimately fail and accepts being nothing more than the vicious thugs and monsters others see them as.

Jezal may be a handsome and dashing swordsman, and eventually crowned king of the Union. But both the reader and the himself are aware that he's just a pawn of others and never in control of his own fate.

I'm not sure I agree that the swordfighting dudes are emasculated. I'd agree that they are damaged and their super masculine powers don't help them at all, but that's more of a foil that however kickass they are, they still fail@life. So instead of emasculated just failed masculinity perhaps?

Jezal may be the exception

since his wife has been forced to fake it with him in order for her lesbian lover to survive, so he may think he's a ladies man but he's really not

[Maithanet]

I'm not sure I agree that the swordfighting dudes are emasculated. I'd agree that they are damaged and their super masculine powers don't help them at all, but that's more of a foil that however kickass they are, they still fail@life. So instead of emasculated just failed masculinity perhaps?

Jezal may be the exception

since his wife has been forced to fake it with him in order for her lesbian lover to survive, so he may think he's a ladies man but he's really not

Well, when we see Jezal in

Best Served Cold, he obviously does not think of himself as a ladies man anymore. He mostly seems to think he is a failure, and his relationship with his wife is a big part of that.

I agree with you that I wouldn't call Shivers or Logen emasculated. You could make the argument for Gorst

when he is doing anything other than fighting, both men and women seem to consider him a joke, laugh at him behind his back, make fun of his high voice, etc. What's interesting is that Gorst has little to be ashamed of, he is a very successful soldier and I don't remember him partaking in any of the despicable things that Logen or Shivers have done. Although he obviously has some foolish notions when it comes to his relationship with Finree.

[Yersinia]

That's simply an opportunity to learn more. :) We're not really taught a lot about feminism and how women got the vote, how laws were changed etc. since it's for some reason not considered very important. Or something.

This link has a comprehensive history and introduction which could be useful to start out with.

Thanks, Lyanna!

[emberling]

I also perceived Bel as generally on the masculine side. I believe that it was written intentionally or semi-intentionally this way to reflect the way that Miles saw Bel - and we definitely see Miles do a double take at least once when Bel plays up the femininity at him. Much like with Fitz and the Fool (though less so), Miles isn't really capable of viewing Bel as a potential sexual partner until he matures a great deal - which I read as latent homophobia, though I don't recall if that was evidenced in the text - and I think that leads Miles (or Bujold, perhaps) to ... (what's the female equivalent of emasculate? certainly not effeminate.) his perception of Bel. In short, Bel is partially a man -> Miles is afraid what being attracted to someone partially male means about himself -> Miles elides his perception of Bel as partially a woman, and sees only man when he looks at Bel.

(This is, of course, using the in-universe constructions regarding their 'hermaphrodites' as part-one-thing, part-another, which does not reflect our current understanding of gender and sex - though I think the binary-centric viewpoint seemed to be mostly among non-Betans. Miles' viewpoint, of course, is thoroughly progressive-Barrayaran, not Betan.)

Somewhere floating around, according to my memory, is an essay by Bujold that describes Miles as stealth-feminine-coded, his marginalization in Barrayaran culture reflective of womens' marginalization. I dug around for a while but couldn't seem to find it.

After a few years of seeing "go take an intro to womens' studies course" used to (rightfully) dismiss the ignorant, I am now enrolled in one myself, starting on Monday. It'll be interesting to see how it compares with the dribs and drabs I've picked up from living on the internet.

[Recovering forum addict]

As for the hypermasculinity of walking 50 miles in the snow, etc.

My wife recently walked 100km in less than 24 hours. Apparently it didn't require male genitalia.

If anything, the male genitalia would get in the way.

[brook]

Em - Good luck! You'll ace it :-)

[karaddin]

While anime/manga has problems with women, sex, relationsips, gender roles etc. (oh god do they have problems! Which does not mean everything is problematic of course, but it's definitely very systematic and noticeable) I think precisely in the particular thing that they sometimes allow for a slightly more nuanced form of masculinity is rather interesting.

I think karaddin may have interesting things to say about that! :)

As for issues with women, sex etc. don't you think that's tied in with cultural issues as well? It's no secret that Japan is lagging behind most of the Western world when it comes to issues of equality and gender roles.

I'm always hesitant to comment broadly on anime/manga, particularly on here as I'm painfully aware of how limited my consumption is compared to the massive range that is out there - particularly in comparison to Galactus. Lyanna is referring to my essay from last semester which was on kawaii culture, which was a little more narrow focused than what we are discussing here, but it sure as hell is tied to the larger cultural issues and I'd argue an extremely large slice of the anime/manga aesthetic is heavily influenced by cuteness even when it's not explicitly kawaii. I suspect that there is some level of commonality in the root cause of these things though, that being the view of adulthood and responsibility in Japan by youth (ie not good). I suspect that when all the responsibilities of manhood are closely associated with masculinity, it makes deviance from traditional views of masculinity somewhat more desirable to those seeking to avoid them.

The fan service issue is obviously separate to this, but I would guess that the blatant ways it is used is probably enabled by the culture yeah.

Another aspect that really makes me cringe is treatment of outright gender nonconformity in much of it, I assume the problematic representations are worse in shonen though.

This is actually another are that Japan seems to be lagging behind, statistics on trans people in Japan are pretty limited but an estimate that I saw from 2009 was for less than 10,000 total transitions in all of Japan, which is way way below estimates of the rate in the general population (conservatively at 0.1-0.2% which should have over 100,000 in Japan). I saw a more recent one in the last few months which was looking at a segment of school children (I think about 40,000 children total) and the rates were much higher, above the 0.2% figure, reporting some level of feelings along the trans spectrum. Unfortunately a quick search hasn't turned up where I saw this, I'm pretty sure I got it off twitter.

After a few years of seeing "go take an intro to womens' studies course" used to (rightfully) dismiss the ignorant, I am now enrolled in one myself, starting on Monday. It'll be interesting to see how it compares with the dribs and drabs I've picked up from living on the internet.

You are going to beat me to starting it by a few months, I'll be doing GEN101 for my uni over the Christmas break (I'm having surgery at the start of Jan, so what I produce while on painkillers may be interesting :lol:).

Should I be feeling guilty that, even though I'm a woman, I know next to nothing about feminism? Thanks for the fascinating thread, though. I'll try to read some of the background info if I get time.

As you can gather from emberling and myself, many of us in here lack the formal background in feminism and it doesn't stop us being outspoken :p I've found this thread over it's many many iterations an extremely enlightening place to learn about feminism and associated issues, and it's heavily informed my views without making me feel like I can't have my own opinions.

I'm seriously considering heading into gender studies in academia before even starting it at uni just on the basis of this :p

[Lyanna Stark]

Thanks karaddin! Really loved how you tied in greater societial pressures with expression in culture. Nothing happens in a vacuum after all and how people find ways to vent and rebel is always interesting.

-perceptive stuff on Bel-

You put it better than I did! :) There's certainly a portion of homophobia in Miles. (Interestingly, he tends to be attracted to women who display a lot of traditionally masculine traits though.)

(This is, of course, using the in-universe constructions regarding their 'hermaphrodites' as part-one-thing, part-another, which does not reflect our current understanding of gender and sex - though I think the binary-centric viewpoint seemed to be mostly among non-Betans. Miles' viewpoint, of course, is thoroughly progressive-Barrayaran, not Betan.)

Somewhere floating around, according to my memory, is an essay by Bujold that describes Miles as stealth-feminine-coded, his marginalization in Barrayaran culture reflective of womens' marginalization. I dug around for a while but couldn't seem to find it.

What is interesting is that we as readers aren't always convinced Miles' viewpoint is the correct one either. Especially as soon as Cordelia enters, we're more likely to side with the Betan view of things, I think.

Spoiler for "Mirror Dance" and further along

It will be interesting to see how the more conservatively brought up Mark readjusts his views when he goes to Beta. I haven't got that far yet, but it was amusing to see how terrified he was after meeting Bel Thorne and Taura and being all 0.o about Miles having possible romantic and/or sexual relationships with them. Mark also directly expressed a desire for a more "non threatening" type of woman, which is totally different to Miles who trends more towards tall, strong amazon types like Quinn, Elena and even Taura.

It's nice that Miles is stealth feminine coded actually, even tho when you start digging, it seems a given that he is coded that way, either by accident or design. If you can find that essay it would be great to read it. :)

After a few years of seeing "go take an intro to womens' studies course" used to (rightfully) dismiss the ignorant, I am now enrolled in one myself, starting on Monday. It'll be interesting to see how it compares with the dribs and drabs I've picked up from living on the internet.

That sounds so interesting! Good luck! I am sure you'll do great. :cheers:

[straits]

Well, when we see Jezal in

Best Served Cold, he obviously does not think of himself as a ladies man anymore. He mostly seems to think he is a failure, and his relationship with his wife is a big part of that.

I agree with you that I wouldn't call Shivers or Logen emasculated. You could make the argument for Gorst

when he is doing anything other than fighting, both men and women seem to consider him a joke, laugh at him behind his back, make fun of his high voice, etc. What's interesting is that Gorst has little to be ashamed of, he is a very successful soldier and I don't remember him partaking in any of the despicable things that Logen or Shivers have done. Although he obviously has some foolish notions when it comes to his relationship with Finree.

Shivers took control of his own fate to a higher degree than Ninefingers, if you read up to the end of Red Country, but his identity struggle throughout Best Served Cold, including the physical and mental breakdown, was pretty emasculating. I don't know how far raw violence goes to counteract that, unless you think that's what masculinity is.