Why is the show turning Stannis into a dick?

[Ser Eric]

I agree. I think the show perfectly encapsulates how boring I felt most of her chapters were. In the books her chapters started to become unbearable after the first book besides a few minor moments here and there. Her tone and moral backing seem relatively close to how the book is portrayed especially relative to characters like Stannis and Tyrion who I feel like enough alterations have been made that I feel like they aren't really the same characters from the books but like the Patty Duke cousin version. Conversely, most of the changes they've made for Dany I think have been minor and more generally positive in her favor in that she hasn't seemed to rely on her council quite as much and is learning faster.

I'd also say Dany at least started out as one of D&D's favorite characters along with Arya, Ned, Robb and the Lannisters. For me the only thing that kept me watching Dany scenes was Jorah after early in the second season, so having him around longer due to other changes was also favorable in my eyes.

In D&D's defense as far as Stannis goes, some of the deviations get amplified somewhat due to the far more limited screen time Stannis gets opposed to somebody like Dany. I'm not somebody that thinks they went crazy assassinating Stannis's character though in the same way I'd say Tyrion has been seriously altered. Like if I were trying to say how I compare looking at the characters on the show from the book counterpart, I'd say Tyrion has had some major reconstructive surgery while Stannis has just been presented standing in a more dimly lit room. I think as we get more scenes with Stannis there is still plenty of time to make him closer to the book version or turn him into a more compelling, but different show version. We've already accumulated way too much evidence on Tyrion in the show and he just comes off as a fairly different person as far as tone and likability than he was at corresponding times in the book.

I think GRRM handled Dany well after the first book. She only had a combined total of 11 chapters in the 2nd and 3rd book and none of them were static and kept the plot moving. It's only in the 5th book when it all falls apart and becomes mind numbingly boring (to me at least). Aside from casting a better actress I don't think the show could have done anything more.

With Stannis I think the show could have done a LOT more to keep him more in line with the books. What's frustrating is that Dilane seems to be the perfect guy to play Stannis and has captured the Stannis tone very well when he has had the chance. Tyrion, is a lost cause. The entire Shae/Tyrion thing was done horrendously.

Given his role here, it's possible he will receive a more favorable portrayal, like how S2 portrayed him passably. But the damage has been done; they've already completely and utterly butchered his character in S4. Namely with "he was an infidel" and his reasoning for going to the Wall.

If they immediately start portraying him accurately from here on out (he's got a lot of good material in the North storyline, and is really the only "hero" left in the story as a whole besides Jon), quietly retcon the latter scene, and just don't mention the "infidel" thing ever again (like rapist!Jaime), then maybe, just maybe, we'll have an overall decent version of Stannis. But given how the show has repeatedly demonized Stannis to the point where his actions don't even make sense, and gone out of its way to whitewash his enemies to a truly ridiculous extent... I'm not holding out hope either.

I agree. The damage is mostly done with his reasons for going to the wall but Stannis, in book 5, is brilliant in every scene he is in so I still hope..

[Mithras]

Surprised why this thread is still here but I have no objection to the portrayal of Stannis in the show. I think they handle him decent enough.

I was initially disturbed by he glorified Dany in the show but finally, D&D started to emphasize her failures and I expect her failures will escalade in the next season. I am curious about the Unsullied reactions at that time.

[Kyoshi]

Surprised why this thread is still here but I have no objection to the portrayal of Stannis in the show. I think they handle him decent enough.

I was initially disturbed by he glorified Dany in the show but finally, D&D started to emphasize her failures and I expect her failures will escalade in the next season. I am curious about the Unsullied reactions at that time.

You're making the point I think some of the posters are trying to highlight: just because you hate/love a character doesn't mean everyone else has to feel the same way. I think that's the problem faced by Stannis fans, they want everyone else to see him as a hero, they want the Unsullied to join them in their praise for him and they constantly worry that the show runners are making that impossible. Funny enough, that's the same problem faced by Dany haters, they want everyone else to hate her so they go out of their way to point out all the positive additions made by the show runners, thus making it seem as though she is deliberately being cast in a positive light.

In the end I think Stannis fans are just afraid his awesomeness is not being highlighted while the awesomeness of characters they feel are "boring" is being overstated. In conclusion, this is a pointless debate because it's all subjective anyway. There are people who like Roose even though they know he raped a woman. I personally can't overlook such things in a character but some people can and I can't judge them for that. I also overlook reprehensible traits in some characters, an example being Jaime. There will always be people who love Dany despite her faults. I happen to be one of those people who love her even though I know she's not a perfect character.

PS: I assume from your avatar you like Victarion. The guy beat his wife to death and burnt slave girls, he raped and pillaged and took salt wives. Are you also waiting to see how the Unsullied react to his flaws (majorly reprehensible acts even in Westeros) if he ever he makes it to the show?

[The Drunkard]

I'm sure those issues are unique to Stannis fans and Dany haters, and certainly not because of your character preferences.

I agree. The damage is mostly done with his reasons for going to the wall but Stannis, in book 5, is brilliant in every scene he is in so I still hope..

I'm looking forward to how they handle Mance's baby (if it exists) and Aemon. Given show!Stannis' willingness to burn anyone at the drop of a hat, I'd almost bet you that Jon evacuates Aemon and the baby after Stannis announces his intent to roast them, rather than out of suspicion based on the mutterings of a feverish queens man.

Still, at least we'll probably get more Stannis and Mance scenes.

[Ser Eric]

You're making the point I think some of the posters are trying to highlight: just because you hate/love a character doesn't mean everyone else has to feel the same way. I think that's the problem faced by Stannis fans, they want everyone else to see him as a hero, they want the Unsullied to join them in their praise for him and they constantly worry that the show runners are making that impossible. Funny enough, that's the same problem faced by Dany haters, they want everyone else to hate her so they go out of their way to point out all the positive additions made by the show runners, thus making it seem as though she is deliberately being cast in a positive light.

In the end I think Stannis fans are just afraid his awesomeness is not being highlighted while the awesomeness of characters they feel are "boring" is being overstated. In conclusion, this is a pointless debate because it's all subjective anyway. There are people who like Roose even though they know he raped a woman. I personally can't overlook such things in a character but some people can and I can't judge them for that. I also overlook reprehensible traits in some characters, an example being Jaime. There will always be people who love Dany despite her faults. I happen to be one of those people who love her even though I know she's not a perfect character.

PS: I assume from your avatar you like Victarion. The guy beat his wife to death and burnt slave girls, he raped and pillaged and took salt wives. Are you also waiting to see how the Unsullied react to his flaws (majorly reprehensible acts even in Westeros) if he ever he makes it to the show?

That's something of blanket statement, an inaccurate one at that.

What people want is for the character to be portrayed accurately on the show. That's quite clearly not happened with Stannis. I mean, sure, he's a lier, a kinslayer, a hypocrite amongst other things but he's also the "King Who Cared". They've messed that up entirely. He's not a sex starved religious zealot.

[James Arryn]

They tweaked Stannis, but they kept his essential self the same.

Whereas Renly...that was a fundamentally different and ugly cliche version they threw up there, and I recall few Stannis fans complaining at the time.

[The Drunkard]

Which has an obvious reason that should go without saying: Stannis fans are more invested in Stannis than they are Renly.

[Konradsmith]

This really should be in the show threads. There is no reason why this should be under "general ASOIAF".

[Kyoshi]

That's something of blanket statement, an inaccurate one at that.

What people want is for the character to be portrayed accurately on the show. That's quite clearly not happened with Stannis. I mean, sure, he's a lier, a kinslayer, a hypocrite amongst other things but he's also the "King Who Cared". They've messed that up entirely. He's not a sex starved religious zealot.

Given the reactions in this thread alone, I don't think the statement is as blanket-natured as you state. Accuracy isn't the issue here, there are people, you can find some on this thread, who wanted Stannis to show up in The Watchers on the Wall, something we know does not happen in the book. That would have been inaccurate, contradicting what you posted.

They also omitted his shadow baby killing Penrose and the fact that he knew about the Jaime/Cersei incest, omissions which worked in his favour. Him shunning his wife is also understated on the show, we only see her saying that she approves of the affair with Mel. No one is complaining about these omissions. Why, I ask you? Why are his fans silent on these matters, matters that dull down his unlikable side?

[James Arryn]

Which has an obvious reason that should go without saying: Stannis fans are more invested in Stannis than they are Renly.

I complained about both, at the time.

[Mikkel]

They tweaked Stannis, but they kept his essential self the same.

Bearing in mind I haven't watched the show since season two, but if they have indeed changed him into a "true R'hllor believer", who is begging Melisandre for sex and requires her to do all the critical thinking... it goes way beyond just tweaking.

Whereas Renly...that was a fundamentally different and ugly cliche version they threw up there, and I recall few Stannis fans complaining at the time.

Yeah what they did with Renly was an atrocity, too. But hey, at least he's out sometime into season two, heh.

[Mithras]

Davos adores Stannis. Without his POV bias, Stannis is very close to the TV show version because in TV we have a universal POV.

Dany OTOH was purposely glorified in the show for rating concerns. That went even beyond Dany's own bias in her own POVs. But in the end, they started to throw the deserved shit on Dany by pointing that Hizdahr's father was nailed to posts unjustly and some slaves do not want the freedom she gave them. They left the failure at Astapor out IIRC but that will probably come in the next season.

PS: I assume from your avatar you like Victarion. The guy beat his wife to death and burnt slave girls, he raped and pillaged and took salt wives. Are you also waiting to see how the Unsullied react to his flaws (majorly reprehensible acts even in Westeros) if he ever he makes it to the show?

I like Victarion but I never whitewash his evil acts. I praise Dany fans who simply say that she "f/*-ed it up" when she really "f/*-s it up". Too bad I can find so few of them.

[Mithras]

Bearing in mind I haven't watched the show since season two, but if they have indeed changed him into a "true R'hllor believer", who is begging Melisandre for sex and requires her to do all the critical thinking... it goes way beyond just tweaking.

Stannis is indeed a true Rhlorr believer because he believes that he has power. He likes to wave his shiny fLightbringer too damn well and calls Jon that he is the weapon that the Lord gave him. Rhlorr worship reeks in his daily speech. He may rationalize his Rhlorr worship but he nonetheless believes in that stuff.

[Game Of Thrones]

Davos adores Stannis. Without his POV bias, Stannis is very close to the TV show version because in TV we have a universal POV.

Well, he certainly doesn't beg Mel for sex while everyone else is watching. Nor is he being warged by Mel.

[The Drunkard]

Davos adores Stannis. Without his POV bias, Stannis is very close to the TV show version because in TV we have a universal POV.

Davos' POV isn't able to bend reality, and it happens to be hugely biased against Melisandre, R'hllor and Stannis' involvement with them. Note his lack of (any) good thoughts with regards to that religion, even though it's the reason Stannis takes the apocalypse seriously.

[James Arryn]

Bearing in mind I haven't watched the show since season two, but if they have indeed changed him into a "true R'hllor believer", who is begging Melisandre for sex and requires her to do all the critical thinking... it goes way beyond just tweaking.

But the R'hllor stuff is grey in the book. He says he has no time for Gods, but he also says he believes in Mel's power, which she clearly and repeatedly states comes from her god, and Stannis assumes all the material trappings of a believer. I personally am unsure exactly where he sits on it. The show seems less ambiguous, but it's not like the answer is clearly A and they chose a clear B.

The sex stuff to me is incidental. We don't know what Stannis and Mel are like, sexually. We do know he's described as bewitched by her and has entirely neglected Selyse since she entered the picture. The scene between them I objected to at the time, but it's again coming down with a known out of a textual unknown, not flipping it around. Bothered me, but ambiguity is hard to show on tv.

Whereas turning Renly from a guy who loves hunting and martial sports and is popular and charismatic and described as very much in charge of his Kingship, and turning him into a twitchy, nervous, petty little squirrel of a gay caricature, complete with a fear of blood and being lead around by his dick IS turning a number of As into Bs. Just look how he responds to Cat's arguing with his a Lords at the tourney. Show Renly twitches and bites his lip and looks around for help before trying to brush past her points as quickly as possible while maintaining a courteous air. Book Renly, far from nervous, but in fact enjoying it, openly laughs and cheers her and tells his Lords she was won the argument...small point, but describing 2 very different people.

[Mithras]

Well, he certainly doesn't beg Mel for sex while everyone else is watching. Nor is he being warged by Mel.

We know that Mel has a smoke for lust and it is possible that she used it on Stannis. Need to rewatch the Mel-Selyse scene from the last season. Perhaps the show touched this issue too.

The important point is that TV is a completely different medium than books. Their means to tell a story is different. It is natural for the TV show to openly show certain things which are hinted in the books vaguely.

We are also pretty sure that Stannis banged Mel to father those shadow babies.

Davos' POV isn't able to bend reality, and it happens to be hugely biased against Melisandre, R'hllor and Stannis' involvement with them. Note his lack of (any) good thoughts with regards to that religion, even though it's the reason Stannis takes the apocalypse seriously.

Throwing every bad shit to Mel and whitewashing Stannis from guilt; That is Davos is inclined to do sometimes. Cressen plainly thought that Stannis has changed in the end. Stannis does not have good thoguhts of being the king (in fact he does not want it, to hear him say it). But he nonetheless never gives up his quest to the IT on the basis that it is his duty.

[Ser Eric]

Given the reactions in this thread alone, I don't think the statement is as blanket-natured as you state. Accuracy isn't the issue here, there are people, you can find some on this thread, who wanted Stannis to show up in The Watchers on the Wall, something we know does not happen in the book. That would have been inaccurate, contradicting what you posted.

They also omitted his shadow baby killing Penrose and the fact that he knew about the Jaime/Cersei incest, omissions which worked in his favour. Him shunning his wife is also understated on the show, we only see her saying that she approves of the affair with Mel. No one is complaining about these omissions. Why, I ask you? Why are his fans silent on these matters, matters that dull down his unlikable side?

It is blanket natured. What you are saying is that Stannis fans only care about how he is perceived by show watchers which is utterly ridiculous.

I am not sure what the point of the 2nd praragraph is. It backs up my point that he has been portrayed inaccurately. The show combined the Renly/Penrose killing. It is the same thing. And the Jaime/Cersie thing actually portrys him in a bad light. Book Stannis was clever enough to figure that out and clever enough not toget killed by the Lannisters ala Ned and Jon. He fucks Melisandre in the show, so him shunning his wife is even more explicit in the show.

Stannis is indeed a true Rhlorr believer because he believes that he has power. He likes to wave his shiny fLightbringer too damn well and calls Jon that he is the weapon that the Lord gave him. Rhlorr worship reeks in his daily speech. He may rationalize his Rhlorr worship but he nonetheless believes in that stuff.

Stannis doesn't care about gods, that's been made quite clear. He uses Melisandre for his own purposes as much as she uses him. Stannis even knows the sword is a fake but keeps up the charade becuse it helps him. He's the most adaptable (or a hypocrite as some might call it) in the series.

They tweaked Stannis, but they kept his essential self the same.

Whereas Renly...that was a fundamentally different and ugly cliche version they threw up there, and I recall few Stannis fans complaining at the time.

This is the Stannis thread if you hadn't noticed.

[Kyoshi]

@Paper Waver, you can't argue that the show is biased in one post and then declare it a means of absolute truth in the next. They can't both whitewash and "expose" Dany.

And as others have said, Davos's POV is not without bias. Also, the scene with Hizzy's dad was meant to ask the same questions asked by the books IMHO. It wasn't a grand moment of revelation. The show is also a completely different story with completely different characters. I wouldn't take their word for anything, even if they conclude everything before GRRM. But IMHO they nailed Stannis, the dude is just a dick. I'll concede that he's a different kind of dick on HBO, but he's still a dick even in the books.

[The Drunkard]

Throwing every bad shit to Mel and whitewashing Stannis from guilt; That is Davos is inclined to do sometimes.

Davos doesn't like Melisandre at all (biased as he is) but he doesn't believe Stannis bewitched and unable to make his own choices, aside from a brief period post-Blackwater. His disapproval of Melisandre extends to Stannis when he takes her counsel too seriously for his tastes, which is taking her counsel at all.