Nine year old accidentally kills gun instructor with Uzi

[L.T.'s Sexual Healing]

Yup, back to our conversation the other day. I could never live in the U.S just because of cases like this. Its fucking insane!

You can't even argue with someone at a bar without thinking in the back of your head, "What if this prick has a gun?" I'm with Relic, Europe is looking pretty nice these days.

[TerraPrime]

letting them fire it on their own would be seen by the majority as absolutely mental.

To be clear, the girl in question was firing the submachine gun under the, admittedly in hindsight, inadequate, supervision of an instructor, who is supposed to be licensed/certified on gun safety and training.

[lessthanluke]

To be clear, the girl in question was firing the submachine gun under the, admittedly in hindsight, inadequate, supervision of an instructor, who is supposed to be licensed/certified on gun safety and training.

We know this. Polishs point still stands.

[polishgenius]

To be clear, the girl in question was firing the submachine gun under the, admittedly in hindsight, inadequate, supervision of an instructor, who is supposed to be licensed/certified on gun safety and training.

Yeah, but he was in no way holding, bracing or guiding her as she fired, which is what I meant and what caused the whole tragedy in the first place. She's a nine-year-old - no matter how sensible a kid she might be, once he lets go, he's essentially at the mercy of the concentration of a pre-teen, even if he did (which it doesn't really look like, though as I say I know bog all about guns) teach her all the proper safety regarding recoil* and all that.

I wasn't entirely clear though, apologies.

*Whether any nine-year-old would ever be properly prepared to handle the recoil from that particular gun is another matter, one worth asking but that I'm not in any way qualified to talk about.

[eyenon15]

Id say no way the parents should be punished. Being that I assume the parents weren't willingly breaking any laws when they allowed their kid to shoot it.

If we are saying the crime is the parent allowing the kid to shoot , someone should have mentioned that to them before the instructor was shot. And all the other parents who allowed their kids to shoot are equally guilty.

[L.T.'s Sexual Healing]

Id say no way the parents should be punished. Being that I assume the parents weren't willingly breaking any laws when they allowed their kid to shoot it.

If we are saying the crime is the parent allowing the kid to shoot , someone should have mentioned that to them before the instructor was shot. And all the other parents who allowed their kids to shoot are equally guilty.

No the parents shouldn't be punished, outside of being required to have a couple of social worker visits. The range should be punished though. I cannot believe they let 5 year olds shoot. More over, gun laws (that will never actually get enacted) should be passed to prevent this and place standards on when and what type of gun a child could use.

[polishgenius]

Id say no way the parents should be punished. Being that I assume the parents weren't willingly breaking any laws when they allowed their kid to shoot it.

Do you really think that ignorance or accident when breaking a law leaves you free from responsibility for doing so?

I don't think anyone's saying that the parents should be punished in terms of the way the law appears to be now. The should is hypothetical, in that if the law allows this, the law is wrong, it should be changed, and the next time this happens, then there's someone held responsible.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Yup. My biggest takeaway from all of this is if that guy hasn't died, five year olds would be at this range shooting guns and most of us wouldn't know it.

[eyenon15]

I'd Be ok with the range being punished via lawsuits but not criminal charges or jail time or anything like that.

[eyenon15]

Do you really think that ignorance or accident when breaking a law leaves you free from responsibility for doing so?

I don't think anyone's saying that the parents should be punished in terms of the way the law appears to be now. The should is hypothetical, in that if the law allows this, the law is wrong, it should be changed, and the next time this happens, then there's someone held responsible.

I'm fine with that.

If we find out the parents broke laws absolutely.

I'm not fine with "that should have been illegal, so you must be punished for doing it"

[Larry of the Lawn]

There was a similar incident in Springfield Mass about 5 or 10 years ago at a gun show I've been to many times where a young boy shot himself in the head with an Uzi due to the recoil. Will try to find the link but I'm on my phone.

Edit :

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27399337/ns/us_news-life/t/boy-accidentally-kills-self-gun-show/

It was a big deal in my hometown, the kid was from the.next town over.

[S John]

Maybe it is just my ingrained American-ness but I don't think the parents should be held responsible in any way either. They were likely thinking, well, ok, this is a controlled environment and this guy is trained and certified and does this all the time. If he is uncomfortable with this situation then he will not allow it. If you've ever done anything where you rely on the expertise of someone else for your safety, which we all have, then I think that is a fair enough stance on the part of the parents. There are many situations in life where you are counting on the fact that the person in control is properly certified and knows how to use the equipment for which they are responsible. This guy fucked up at his job and it cost him his life.

As for whether or not it should be illegal for a child of that age to handle certain weapons at all, I don't know, maybe. I'm not actually sure that I care one way or another. We have clearly embraced firearms as a part of our culture and there will be consequences of that from time to time. It should be common sense not to give a 9yr old an Uzi, but I can think of plenty of scenarios where it would be ok to let a kid shoot, so I don't know if I'd be supportive of legislation.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

To anyone interested, this fundraiser has been started to help raise money for psychotherapy for the child.

[TerraPrime]

Maybe it is just my ingrained American-ness but I don't think the parents should be held responsible in any way either. They were likely thinking, well, ok, this is a controlled environment and this guy is trained and certified and does this all the time. If he is uncomfortable with this situation then he will not allow it. If you've ever done anything where you rely on the expertise of someone else for your safety, which we all have, then I think that is a fair enough stance on the part of the parents. There are many situations in life where you are counting on the fact that the person in control is properly certified and knows how to use the equipment for which they are responsible. This guy fucked up at his job and it cost him his life.

Yup.

[Reny of Storms End]

I suspect our difference of opinion is in large part due to being in Europe, because corn syrup isn't a major concern here whereas giving any kind of gun to a child, let alone an Uzi, and letting them fire it on their own would be seen by the majority as absolutely mental.

But, ya know, the fact that it isn't seen as particularly worrying in America (until things like this happen, of course) is one of the reasons I find the States very, very weird and wouldn't be comfortable ever living there.

As you're not an American I would say you have no clue what we find worrisome or not.

[L.T.'s Sexual Healing]

Maybe it is just my ingrained American-ness but I don't think the parents should be held responsible in any way either. They were likely thinking, well, ok, this is a controlled environment and this guy is trained and certified and does this all the time. If he is uncomfortable with this situation then he will not allow it. If you've ever done anything where you rely on the expertise of someone else for your safety, which we all have, then I think that is a fair enough stance on the part of the parents. There are many situations in life where you are counting on the fact that the person in control is properly certified and knows how to use the equipment for which they are responsible. This guy fucked up at his job and it cost him his life.

As for whether or not it should be illegal for a child of that age to handle certain weapons at all, I don't know, maybe. I'm not actually sure that I care one way or another. We have clearly embraced firearms as a part of our culture and there will be consequences of that from time to time. It should be common sense not to give a 9yr old an Uzi, but I can think of plenty of scenarios where it would be ok to let a kid shoot, so I don't know if I'd be supportive of legislation.

I think the narrative would be vastly different if the child killed herself, like in Larry's link. Then the parents would be to blame, along with the firing range, IMO.

Can we at least agree that a child should have to pass certain courses before they can use any guns at all, and the specialized courses for shit like an Uzi?

[Shryke]

Americans and their guns...

What a bunch of fucking nutters.

[The Fallen]

I think I would enjoy firing a gun at a shooting range and would like to do it sometime. But I still wouldn't want to own one.

Theda, less than, it all depends where you live. In NYC we have strict gun laws. I probably couldn't get a gun permit if I applied for one. The problem we have is with the illegal import of guns that are purchased in the south, where gun laws are lax.

As I stated before, I've lived in tough neighborhoods in the northeast all my life and have never feared being shot. And this after actually having been shot at once before when I was in my late teens.

ETA:

larrytheimp, Springfield, MA is my hometown.

[S John]

I think the narrative would be vastly different if the child killed herself, like in Larry's link. Then the parents would be to blame, along with the firing range, IMO.

Can we at least agree that a child should have to pass certain courses before they can use any guns at all, and the specialized courses for shit like an Uzi?

Sure, but that course is probably going to involve some verbal or written instruction followed by practice with the real thing. Just like learning to do anything else. If you want to get your drivers' license you have to actually drive first and if you want to make kids get certified before they are allowed to shoot.. then probably there will be a shooting component of that. And you are still relying on the instructor to be responsible, make good judgments, and generally know their shit. So in a case like this one, I don't really know that it changes anything.

[eyenon15]

Maybe use blanks first? If the gun still has the same recoil when firing blanks, practice that way first.