Faint Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Tyrion is pretty bad but Jaime attempted to murder two preteens and left one crippled -- not to mention, aided and abetted the gang rape of an innocent woman -- so this is not much of a contest. Jaime Lannister is pure slime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Vinegar Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Jaime also tried to cut off Arya's hand, and we can't blame Tyrion for killing Tywin under the circumstances and who did Tyrion rape? Tysha, who he thought was a whore, or the Sunset Girl, who was a whore? Being a prostitute does NOT mean that that person cannot be raped. Besides, the woman is a slave. Not exactly consensual. Regarding the OP, I would say Jaime. For exactly this reason: Tyrion is a kinslayer and a rapist. Jaime attempted to murder a child that had the capability to destroy what he lived for. Sorry, but I have to give this one to Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Being a prostitute does NOT mean that that person cannot be raped. Besides, the woman is a slave. Not exactly consensual. :agree: I won't hold Tysha against him, since he was 13 and more or less had a gun to his head. Tysha was Tywin's bad. As for his relationship with Shae... there've been a few thread about that on this board that have gotten very, very ugly. Tyrion's whole journey from leaving King's Landing to getting captured by Mormont was just so bad. I don't think I can forgive him for it, even though eh bounties back a little after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Tyrion is pretty bad but Jaime attempted to murder two preteens and left one crippled -- not to mention, aided and abetted the gang rape of an innocent woman -- so this is not much of a contest. Jaime Lannister is pure slime. That's not true. Seriously, in the last few days that's like third factual error you make about Jaime, you should reread his chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Hold on, regarding Tysha. Clearly it was a loving relationship at first, and when it was ''revealed'' that she was a whore, can you hold him to account as a rapist, when he didn't believe he was raping anyone? Come on, he isn't that dumb, he knew Tysha was raped, even though he believed her to be a prostitute. He watched it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Sunset Girl was unresponsive, and a prostitute--ie, Tyrion assumes that this is her occupation, whether she is lively in bed or not. He shouldn't, but he's far from perfect. Tysha is far more disturbing. I keep thinking that Tyrion should have trusted his wife over his brother and father, but he could not, most likely because he never believes that a "normal" woman can love him. That, in turn, explains his fury against his brother, and especially his father. They took the one true thing he needed, has been searching for away from him, wounding him permanently. Jaime starts off as a man who can toss a child out the window. He then starts to change for the better. I'm ex-Catholic, there's a great deal of Catholicism here. Neither character is purely good or purely evil. Both are capable of a "redemptive arc," despite perpetrating all manner of evil. In that, they're a bit like Gollum. I like both characters equally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Tyrion's "morality" is entirely self-interested, as evidenced by his solipsistic approach to everything. Jaime, on the other-hand, considers others when it comes to his actions, so his moral code is inherently better. Jaime's main issue is that the others to whom he holds himself accountable are terrible (Tywin, Cersei), though he's on the upswing. It's not to excuse any of Jaime's actions; he knows exactly what he's doing. But I would assert that he is "more moral," because his weighing of right and wrong is not completely selfish, as is the case with Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Tyrion's "morality" is entirely self-interested, as evidenced by his solipsistic approach to everything. Jaime, on the other-hand, considers others when it comes to his actions, so his moral code is inherently better. Jaime's main issue is that the others to whom he holds himself accountable are terrible (Tywin, Cersei), though he's on the upswing. It's not to excuse any of Jaime's actions; he knows exactly what he's doing. But I would assert that he is "more moral," because his weighing of right and wrong is not completely selfish, as is the case with Tyrion. I think I'm heading in your direction, even if I'm not quite there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Tyrion's "morality" is entirely self-interested, as evidenced by his solipsistic approach to everything. Jaime, on the other-hand, considers others when it comes to his actions, so his moral code is inherently better. Jaime's main issue is that the others to whom he holds himself accountable are terrible (Tywin, Cersei), though he's on the upswing. It's not to excuse any of Jaime's actions; he knows exactly what he's doing. But I would assert that he is "more moral," because his weighing of right and wrong is not completely selfish, as is the case with Tyrion. Tyrion has to be solipsistic, as he has only had himself to fall back on. He can save a city (KL) and he'll be blamed for it. His life consists of trying to get someone, anyone, to recognize him as a human being. Jaime has never had that problem. He's the gorgeous, heroic knight. In the beginning, however, he's equally solipsistic, throwing a child out a window to hide his secret with Cersei, sending his men to their deaths, as he's impatient for glory. Only after losing his hand does he begin to think of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonBranRickon Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I hate to bring the nature vs nuture thing into the equation but ask yourself who is ever on Tryions side? I contend that his solipsistic nature is born out of self preservation. Give me Tyrion over Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I think I'm heading in your direction, even if I'm not quite there. Oh I can get you there...I have no dearth of negative things to say about Tyrion ^_^ . My reread has proven very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 He can save a city (KL) and he'll be blamed for it. Jaime has never had that problem. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Jaime has never had that problem. He's the gorgeous, heroic knight. In the beginning, however, he's equally solipsistic, throwing a child out a window to hide his secret with Cersei, sending his men to their deaths, as he's impatient for glory. Only after losing his hand does he begin to think of others. You are forgetting the fact that Jaime is despised by basically everyone, that he became a symbol of a honorless jerk. Despite the fact that he is gorgeous, strong knight, he is a much an outcast, as is Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Tyrion has to be solipsistic, as he has only had himself to fall back on. He can save a city (KL) and he'll be blamed for it. He didn't save any city. Stannis wasn't going to destroy KL or even sack it. Who blamed him for anything related to this, BTW, I don't recall anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonBranRickon Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 uuuuuuuuu Tyrion has to be solipsistic, as he has only had himself to fall back on. He can save a city (KL) and he'll be blamed for it. His life consists of trying to get someone, anyone, to recognize him as a human being. Jaime has never had that problem. He's the gorgeous, heroic knight. In the beginning, however, he's equally solipsistic, throwing a child out a window to hide his secret with Cersei, sending his men to their deaths, as he's impatient for glory. Only after losing his hand does he begin to think of others.YOur thoughts are very similar to mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Pretty sure he was talking about the rapey adventures of Tyrion in Essos, not that. Yeah, I edited it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Only after losing his hand does he begin to think of others. And by others, that would be men who have potentially fucked Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 And by others, that would be men who have potentially fucked Cersei. Yeah, the gendered way in which both these brothers express their ill-feelings towards Cersei really bugs me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Being a prostitute does NOT mean that that person cannot be raped. Besides, the woman is a slave. Not exactly consensual. Regarding the OP, I would say Jaime. For exactly this reason: What about Jaime trying to cut off Arya's hand? Plus Jaime showed no remorse for what he did to Bran, only that it pissed Cersei off. Plus, Tywin deserved what he got. Kinslaying might be an abominable act no matter the circumstances in that world, but I would think from a modern viewpoint people would view what Tyrion did differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 What about Jaime trying to cut off Arya's hand? Plus Jaime showed no remorse for what he did to Bran, only that it pissed Cersei off. Plus, Tywin deserved what he got. Kinslaying might be an abominable act no matter the circumstances in that world, but I would think from a modern viewpoint people would view what Tyrion did differently. IMO murdering Tywin was by far the best thing Tyrion ever did. This monster had to be put down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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