Jaime or Tyrion- Who's more moral?

[KingOfTheRock]

While Tyrion was brought up in a society where slavery wasn't accepted, at the moment he was in Essos, and so in a different society.

Yes, but he was taught since he was born that slavery and rape is something bad, so he knew he was doing something bad by raping the sex slave.

[Chebyshov]

While Tyrion was brought up in a society where slavery wasn't accepted, at the moment he was in Essos, and so in a different society.

So when in Essos, rape all the slaves? Yes, excellent moral compass there.

[RainGhost]

I think Jaime is more honourable but Tyrion has the better moral compass imo. It's a subtle difference but I think Tyrion generally has a better sense of right and wrong. Tyrion is very much against the killing of children, he punishes Janos Slynt for his hand in Ned's death and the murder of children, he's horrified by his father's and his sister's atrocities. He's not very honourable and he does some bad things but he does them to bad people e.g. Tywin.

Whereas Jaime tries to do the honourable thing (more so after the hand loss) but he doesn't have quite the same fundamental grasp of right and wrong that Tyrion has. E.g. Jaime would have murdered a child without batting an eyelid, whilst he was a guest at WF, and would have maimed or killed Arya. Even after the hand loss he threatens Edmure's unborn child. He takes no responsibility for having started the war, thinks he and Cersei had every right to usurp Robert, he can't even see what was wrong about the RW (though this is probably more down to his resentment of that particular group of people).

But these are subtle differences. They're both very grey with good and bad aspects. My vote goes to Tyrion for more moral though.

[Tolsimir]

Even Jaime isn't that dumb.

It's not so much as dumb but hotheaded. They way I always thought what happened there was something like:

Jaime finds out about Tyrion's capture. He knows Tyrion is innocent and his first thought is that he wants to kill the Starks. He searches for Eddard and kills his guards, because he knows that Tyrion would die if he kills Eddard. Obviously this produced no results, but Jaime was always the ''better to do something than wait'' type of guy.

Also I agree with what Chebyshow said.

[larastone]

IMO Tyrion is chaotic good while jaime is chaotic neutral

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Your definition of good is off.

[Faint]

Jaime's appropriate category is "really, really dumb evil."

Even Jaime isn't that dumb.

Well . . .

[Le Cygne]

These are two fictional characters. What's important is which is more entertaining, not more moral.

True. There's small choice in rotten apples, but I find Jaime more entertaining.

GRRM on Tyrion:

With Shae, it’s a much more deliberate and in some ways a crueler thing. It’s not the action of a second, because he’s strangling her slowly and she’s fighting, trying to get free. He could let go at any time. But his anger and his sense of betrayal is so strong that he doesn’t stop until it’s done and that’s probably the blackest deed that he’s ever done. It’s the great crime of his soul along with what he did with his first wife by abandoning her after the little demonstration Lord Tywin put on. Now by the standards of Westeros, that’s hardly a crime at all — “So a lord killed a whore, big deal.” He’s not likely to be punished for that any more than any other lords and knights who treat lowborn women and prostitutes and tavern wenches with contempt and use them and discard them. It’s nothing to the world, but it’s again something that’s going to haunt him, while the act of killing his father is something of enormous consequence that would be forever beyond the pale, for no man is as cursed as a kinslayer.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

GRRM on Jaime:

Obviously a lot of people, when Jaime throws Bran out the window, and we like Bran, we've seen his good points, tend to think that makes Jaime a bad guy. But then you understand, if you understand the situation, if Bran goes back and tells what the saw, and is believed, Jaime will be put to death, his sister will be put to death, and there's an excellent chance that his own children will be put to death.

So I said to my friend, what would you do if some other eight year old kid was in a position to say something and you knew that would mean the death of your own young daughter. And he said, that eight year old kid is dead! And this is what we would consider a moral man.

So how do you make that choice? The abstract of the morality vs. the lives of your own children. I mean, I don't know that I'm a proselytizer who says this is the answer to that, but I have to question the painful, difficult question, the difficulty of the choice, that's what I think makes powerful fiction.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/04/game-of-thrones-season-3-characters_n_1854918.html

[Faint]

Who is more entertaining is an entirely different matter. I actually find Jaime significantly more entertaining than Tyrion but I believe I am in the minority on that point. I am also in the minority in thinking that Cersei is twice as entertaining as her two brothers put together.

[hear me bore]

(Your thoughts are similar!)

I may write up a full post later on why I hate Tyrion, but to be clear, he certainly, certainly has had a rough upbringing. Even though he's a lordling, he's had an incredible amount of difference to overcome, and I'm not trying to minimize that. Tywin, while no Tarly, is one of the worst fathers in the series, and given the amount of emotional abuse inflicted on Tyrion, it's no shock that he's as messed up as he is.

But Tyrion is self-aggrandizing, entitled, misogynistic, and entirely selfish in a way that I don't see Jaime being (not that Jaime doesn't have some gender-sensitivity lessons to learn). Jaime shoving Bran out a window was awful and can't be justified. But Bran also threatened to destroy every aspect of his life in that moment (not an excuse, but his motivation there was not entirely selfish). I think in his own, twisted way, Jaime has a better understanding of right and wrong.

Tyrion still doesn't have this understanding. He runs around bemoaning his situation and being pretty terrible to everyone, yet expecting them to suddenly see how great of a guy he truly is! He burns down half of KL and then when he goes to visit it, acts affronted when the starving (and now homeless) masses throw poo. He agrees to wed (and nearly bed) a 12-year old political hostage (after promising to send her home), and is outraged when she won't open up to him, feeling she owes him some sort of affection. He projects his emotional need for acceptance onto people he pays to be his friend and girlfriend, and then kills the latter when she acts in a way that she would only ever be expected to act. And this isn't even touching his ADWD stuff.

Look. I'm not Jaime's biggest fan either. He's certainly on the upswing, but I kind of view his "redemption" as more of a time of healing, and I still paint him in a darker grey than I typically see around here. But if we're talking strictly about morals, the ability to parse what's right and wrong, there's no contest. Tyrion's never been able to be self-reflective enough to realize that what he does is horribly, horribly fucked up.

Jaime is my favorite character, but some of these accusations against Tyrion are ridiculous. Being terrible to everyone? Was he terrible to Sansa? First he saved her from Joffrey. Then he saw how much she despised him and didn't consummate their marriage, despite continuous pressure and the norms of the story. He complained about her in his thoughts, but not to her face. If he were really an immoral character, or like most men in ASOIAF, he would have insisted upon getting her with a child. Was he terrible to Pod? No, he was actually quite nice to him. Was he even terrible to Penny? No, he saved her life a few times.

As far as Shae, she lied against him at trial. That lie was part of the reason he was sentenced to die. Then he found her in his father's bed. I'm not sure what logical conclusion one could draw from that besides the fact that she lied on purpose. She got what she deserved.

[HexMachina]

Who is more entertaining is an entirely different matter. I actually find Jaime significantly more entertaining than Tyrion but I believe I am in the minority on that point. I am also in the minority in thinking that Cersei is twice as entertaining as her two brothers put together.

Really? I thought her chapters in Feast were a scream. It was a bit like reading Glokta in the First Law Trilogy. (which was my favourite POV, btw)

[Chebyshov]

Jaime is my favorite character, but some of these accusations against Tyrion are ridiculous. Being terrible to everyone? Was he terrible to Sansa? First he saved her from Joffrey. Then he saw how much she despised him and didn't consummate their marriage, despite continuous pressure and the norms of the story. He complained about her in his thoughts, but not to her face. If he were really an immoral character, or like most men in ASOIAF, he would have insisted upon getting her with a child. Was he terrible to Pod? No, he was actually quite nice to him. Was he even terrible to Penny? No, he saved her life a few times.

As far as Shae, she lied against him at trial. That lie was part of the reason he was sentenced to die. Then he found her in his father's bed. I'm not sure what logical conclusion one could draw from that besides the fact that she lied on purpose. She got what she deserved.

OMG don't poke the beast about Tyrion's treatment of Sansa, lol. Luckily for this thread, I'm off to get ready for my labor dabor weekend. Their relationship is currently being examined in this thread here if you're interested.

As for Shae, she did not deserve to be murdered. She acted exactly as she should have acted (he always knew what she was), and it was his fault for projecting his own messed up history, emotional needs, and insecurities onto her.

[Faint]

Really? I thought her chapters in Feast were a scream. It was a bit like reading Glokta in the First Law Trilogy. (which was my favourite POV, btw)

My general impression is that Tyrion is one of the two most popular characters among readers, along with Arya, and Jaime is in the top five or so. Cersei is not that well regarded, at least compared to her brothers. I would be surprised if she was one of the ten most popular characters, to be honest; she might be in the top fifteen.

[KingOfTheRock]

My general impression is that Tyrion is one of the two most popular characters among readers, along with Arya, and Jaime is in the top five or so. Cersei is not that well regarded, at least compared to her brothers. I would be surprised if she was one of the ten most popular characters, to be honest; she might be in the top fifteen.

It might be because of how evil she is. What they don't understand is that we don't care about how good or bad a character is, so long as they're entertaining. Personally, watching Cersei screw up King's Landing was great.

[HexMachina]

My general impression is that Tyrion is one of the two most popular characters among readers, along with Arya, and Jaime is in the top five or so. Cersei is not that well regarded, at least compared to her brothers. I would be surprised if she was one of the ten most popular characters, to be honest; she might be in the top fifteen.

Huh, I didn't know that. Most people I've spoken to on the forums liked her chapters (found them entertaining) even though she was a horrible person. Though I've seen comments about how people were unhappy with Martin writing her as so crazy of course because of...something, I don't really remember. I don't really care though, because she's so funny :lol:

EDIT: Wow, I really must be in the minority. Neither Tyrion, Jon, Jaime or Arya come close to my top POVs...

[Dofs]

My general impression is that Tyrion is one of the two most popular characters among readers, along with Arya, and Jaime is in the top five or so. Cersei is not that well regarded, at least compared to her brothers. I would be surprised if she was one of the ten most popular characters, to be honest; she might be in the top fifteen.

Honestly, I think among readers the top two are Jon and Arya. Tyrion lost a lot of fans in book 5. Cersei is fun to read and entertaining as well, that I agree with. But she is not sympathetic. Such characters as her will never ever be anywhere close to the top of popularity polls no matter how fun they may be.

[Faint]

It might be because of how evil she is. What they don't understand is that we don't care about how good or bad a character is, so long as they're entertaining. Personally, watching Cersei screw up King's Landing was great.

I think that is a big part of it. A great many readers cannot reconcile liking a character that they do not root for or that they do not empathize with.

Frankly, in the case of Tyrion and especially Jaime, I find that whole stance hypocritical. Tyrion and Jaime are very clearly evil, less so than Cersei, but all the same.

[Luthien Targaryen]

For the record, i'm a Tyrion and a Jaime fan, not because they're good people, but because they're really entertaining characters.

Answer to the original question?

Tyrion: Murdered his father and his ex-lover (his father was a git and his ex-lover betrayed him), has a lousy attitude, occasionally threatens sex-workers.

Jaime: Murdered a king, a bad king, but still....On the other hand he's shagging his twin sister and let's not forget...Threw an innocent kid out of a window because he was caught shagging his twin sister.

Tyrion wins, hands down.

If you want to beat throwing a boy out of a window you have to go to the Boltons, the Mountain or Littlefinger for examples. Tyrion isn't in that league.

[hear me bore]

OMG don't poke the beast about Tyrion's treatment of Sansa, lol. Luckily for this thread, I'm off to get ready for my labor dabor weekend. Their relationship is currently being examined in this thread here if you're interested.

As for Shae, she did not deserve to be murdered. She acted exactly as she should have acted (he always knew what she was), and it was his fault for projecting his own messed up history, emotional needs, and insecurities onto her.

Hah, I didn't know that was a sensitive area to tread on.

As far as Shae, she may have acted exactly as she should have from her perspective (though I don't agree), but that doesn't change the fact that her testimony was one of the reasons Tyrion would have been killed. And she lied. So, that's more than enough justification for Tyrion to kill her. You seem to be blaming Tyrion for her lies at the trial, and I'm not sure there is any justification for it. Sure, he knew she was a whore, but how was he supposed to know she would lie to get someone killed? That's a pretty big leap.

[KingOfTheRock]

Hah, I didn't know that was a sensitive area to tread on.

INCREDIBLY sensative. All the Tyrion fans will say he was a perfect little angel and all the Sansa fans will call him the devil reincarnated.