Jaime or Tyrion- Who's more moral?

[Tolsimir]

Exactly!!!

The crimes they commit are heinous and normal human beings would be disgusted, society would call them evil regardless of their reasons(everyone has reasons, even evil people)and demand that they be locked up.

I wonder what you would do if you would have to choose between your own life and another's. If you would chose your own life, would that make you evil?

[Julia Martell]

Wait, so we can't hold raping Tysha against Tyrion because he thougt she was a whore, but we can blame him for having sex with a sex slave, in a society where that was okay?

Maybe other people are saying that, but I'm not.

I don't hold it against him because he wasn't exactly consenting in that situation either.

[HexMachina]

I wonder what you would do if you would have to choose between your own life and another's. If you would chose your own life, would that make you evil?

Well since Jaime was committing High Treason in the first place, and this is why he threw Bran from the window, I'm less inclined to feel sorry for him. If he wasn't committing High Treason, he would have no reason to kill an innocent child would he?

[The Wolves]

I wonder what you would do if you would have to choose between your own life and another's. If you would chose your own life, would that make you evil?

This is not a good comparison at all. And even if I did make a choice I would still be held accountable for my choice.

I don't get why people think I should understand about what Jaime did. Everything starting with the incest was wrong.

It is not Bran's fault that Jaime and Cersei knew what they were doing was wrong and dangerous yet still did it in an unfamiliar place. Winterfell is Bran's home he has every right to climb where he wants to its an innocent, harmless activity. Jaime and Cersi had no business having sex so I blame them they sure didn't have the right to harm anybody because of the harmful consequences that they created because they have no self control.

I don't care that Jaime was trying to save him and his sister lives because they don't deserve to be saved, they are 2 very bad people who have caused so much damage and pain to people's lives starting with Bran.

[Fat Mac]

Not at all. If they were real villains, in real life, I would merely say they deserved capital punishment (of life imprisonment) for the protection of society and as a deterrent to others, and leave God to judge their souls. But since they are both characters in a book, it is entirely fitting to call them "evil".

Except we've seen "evil" in aSoIaF, and Jaime does not fit the description. Evil is mostly the lack of morality. Jaime has a moral compass, albeit somewhat skewed.

[ChillyPolly]

Wait, so we can't hold raping Tysha against Tyrion because he thougt she was a whore, but we can blame him for having sex with a sex slave, in a society where that was okay?

Huh? Why can't I blame him for all these things? And while all these sins are disturbingly prevalent in Martin's world, Tyrion certainly does come from a society where they are not regarded as okay. The poor Septons, at least, are constantly wagging their fingers against rape and prostitution, and slavery is banned outright.

[Chebyshov]

Wait, so we can't hold raping Tysha against Tyrion because he thougt she was a whore, but we can blame him for having sex with a sex slave, in a society where that was okay?

What Julia Martell said about the Tysha situation (though he's not entirely blameless there...just most of that situation can't be laid at his feet), and also prostitutes in Westeros "have a choice" in their profession, where as sex slaves do not. They can't turn down customers, and they inherently can't give consent. Tyrion was brought up to in a society where slavery is not okay, and he knows better. He also sees that her eyes look dead, she's horrified by him, and she "cries out in distress" after he vomits all over the place, but he fucks her (twice) nonetheless, all out of self-loathing. Which is a pretty horrible, misogynistic way to deal with your own issues, I'd say.

[Tolsimir]

This is not a good comparison at all. And even if I did make a choice I would still be held accountable for my choice.

I don't get why people think I should understand about what Jaime did. Everything starting with the incest was wrong.

It is not Bran's fault that Jaime and Cersei knew what they were doing was wrong and dangerous yet still did it in an unfamiliar place. Winterfell is Bran's home he has every right to climb where he wants to its an innocent, harmless activity. Jaime and Cersi had no business having sex so I blame them they sure didn't have the right to harm anybody because of the harmful consequences that they created because they have no self control.

I don't care that Jaime was trying to save him and his sister lives because they don't deserve to be saved, they are 2 very bad people who have caused so much damage and pain to people's lives starting with Bran.

I never said what Jaime did was right. I was just saying that he is not evil like you seem to be so fond of saying. The reason why I am listing his reasons is just to compare them to Tyrion's-and to me he atleast has valid reasons, while Tyrion killed purely for hatred. Just because he has a reason does not mean that what he did was right though.

[ChillyPolly]

Except we've seen "evil" in aSoIaF, and Jaime does not fit the description. Evil is mostly the lack of morality. Jaime has a moral compass, albeit somewhat skewed.

Both Jaime and Tyrion know the difference between right and wrong, and use this knowledge for various purposes. They just don't feel bound by these rules themselves.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

I never said what Jaime did was right. I was just saying that he is not evil like you seem to be so fond of saying. The reason why I am listing his reasons is just to compare them to Tyrion's-and to me he atleast has valid reasons, while Tyrion killed purely for hatred. Just because he has a reason does not mean that what he did was right though.

Jaime killed Jory and Ned's guards only for hatred as well. And they have never wronged him in any way. So hatred and spite. Tyrion had the excuse that he was traumatized after being almost put to death for a crime he didn't commit and having everyone turn their back on him (or even lie to get him killed) and one of his victims was a person who abused and humiliated him all his life.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I never said what Jaime did was right. I was just saying that he is not evil like you seem to be so fond of saying. The reason why I am listing his reasons is just to compare them to Tyrion's-and to me he atleast has valid reasons, while Tyrion killed purely for hatred. Just because he has a reason does not mean that what he did was right though.

Oh, they are both very much evil. Don't confuse trying to appreciate the more evil one with pushing the other back to neutral.

[Dofs]

Jaime is more moral for me. Tyrion, fundamentally is a much more selfish person than Jaime.

[Tolsimir]

Jaime killed Jory and Ned's guards only for hatred as well. And they have never wronged him in any way. So hatred and spite. Tyrion had the excuse that he was traumatized after being almost put to death for a crime he didn't commit and having everyone turn their back on him (or even lie to get him killed) and one of his victims was a person who abused and humiliated him all his life.

Except that he did it because he genuinely thought this will somehow help to save Tyrion.

Oh, they are both very much evil. Don't confuse trying to appreciate the more evil one with pushing the other back to neutral.

Well they both had done some pretty terrible things. And this thread is basically trying to see who has done less terrible things, so arguments that try to rationalize their behaviour were bound to come up.

As for being evil, I agree with Mr Bell, the term is used way too loosely.

[Chebyshov]

Morality is about the sense of right or wrong, rather than a sum total of what is objectively shitty acts. That's why in my opinion, there's no contest; Tyrion is self-interested, where Jaime, no matter how much he might err in his judgement, is doing what he thinks is right by other people, usually considering others' (namely Cersei at the beginning) first. Jaime is misguided, for sure, but finding his way. Tyrion is sinking into disturbing depths of depravity, and once again, all for Tyrion.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Except that he did it because he genuinely thought this will somehow help to save Tyrion.

How the death of Jory and the guards would help Tyrion?

“Tregar, see that no harm comes to Lord Stark.”

“As you say, m’lord.”

“Still... we wouldn’t want him to leave here entirely unscathed, so” - through the night and the rain, he glimpsed the white of Jaime’s smile - ”kill his men.”

In the passage Jaime just gave his reason for ordering the deaths of those men: he wanted to "punish" Ned. Completely petty reason.

[HairGrowsBack]

Tyrion's "morality" is entirely self-interested, as evidenced by his solipsistic approach to everything. Jaime, on the other-hand, considers others when it comes to his actions, so his moral code is inherently better. Jaime's main issue is that the others to whom he holds himself accountable are terrible (Tywin, Cersei), though he's on the upswing. It's not to excuse any of Jaime's actions; he knows exactly what he's doing. But I would assert that he is "more moral," because his weighing of right and wrong is not completely selfish, as is the case with Tyrion.

Basically this.

[The Wolves]

Morality is about the sense of right or wrong, rather than a sum total of what is objectively shitty acts. That's why in my opinion, there's no contest; Tyrion is self-interested, where Jaime, no matter how much he might err in his judgement, is doing what he thinks is right by other people, usually considering others' (namely Cersei at the beginning) first. Jaime is misguided, for sure, but finding his way. Tyrion is sinking into disturbing depths of depravity, and once again, all for Tyrion.

Though Jaime has caused the most damage, his treason was purely selfish knowing that if they were found out Cersei, his children could die and Robert and Tywin could go to war yet he doesn't care. Jaime tells Cersei that if Bran does wake up he can fight Robert saying that it would be called "the war for Cersei's cunt", he travels through the war torn country in ASOS thinking him and Cersei can finally be together and that they fought a war for that ugly chair once why can't they fight another one. He was willing throughout the years to kill Robert on a whim from Cersei.

We get Jaime's thoughts for 3 books yet he takes no responsibility in the part he played in bringing about a war, he regrets nothing either than he walks around stealing children, rewarding murderers all under the authority of his bastard son who has no right to the throne, his crazy sister and his greedy family. Jaime is just as selfish as Tyrion.

[Light a wight tonight]

These are two fictional characters. What's important is which is more entertaining, not more moral.

Arya can be more moral than anyone, for that matter.

[David Selig]

Except that he did it because he genuinely thought this will somehow help to save Tyrion.

Even Jaime isn't that dumb.

[Warrewal Halfaxe]

What Julia Martell said about the Tysha situation (though he's not entirely blameless there...just most of that situation can't be laid at his feet), and also prostitutes in Westeros "have a choice" in their profession, where as sex slaves do not. They can't turn down customers, and they inherently can't give consent. Tyrion was brought up to in a society where slavery is not okay, and he knows better. He also sees that her eyes look dead, she's horrified by him, and she "cries out in distress" after he vomits all over the place, but he fucks her (twice) nonetheless, all out of self-loathing. Which is a pretty horrible, misogynistic way to deal with your own issues, I'd say.

While Tyrion was brought up in a society where slavery wasn't accepted, at the moment he was in Essos, and so in a different society.