Jaime or Tyrion- Who's more moral?

[The Mother of The Others]

Have they ever applied their different moral codes to the same problem so we can compare?

When it comes to the problem of Joffree, Tyrion wins---any moral person would have been outraged and Tyrion was moreso.

For killing people whom they had no right to kill at the time, it's just a Pass/Fail grade of PASS for both of them.

For recent decisions, Jaime.

Plus points to Tyrion for how he dealt with Sansa more decently than did his fam overall.

Hero points to Tyrion for ridding the world of Lightbringer (Tywin was the devil, and the devil is known as Lucifer, which means Lightbringer)

Hero points to Jaime for defending Aerys the way he did. Devil points as well.

Devilry plus to Tyrion for not caring anymore what harm he does to the world.

Sex That's Wrong: it'd be a photo finish between them in their race to do stuff that's icky.

Saving People in droves: check ; check

Letting the world burn: Jamie stopped the world from burning, then set it up to burn all over again. Tyrion actually set the bay on fire and is close to obtaining a dragon.

It's complicated.

[Chebyshov]

INCREDIBLY sensative. All the Tyrion fans will say he was a perfect little angel and all the Sansa fans will call him the devil reincarnated.

Interestingly Sansa thinks of him as being rather "kind," at least in hindsight of the marriage. But from our 3rd party view, it's hard for me to give Tyrion much credit there given their ages and his complete dismissal of her character.

I'm not saying Tyrion is Ramsay; he's not. In some ways that's almost worse though, because he has the capacity to be good, and just isn't. Tyrion is an incredibly self-centered guy, and the way he acts like a martyr about their marriage when she is a terrified, 12 year old prisoner, is a pretty telling sign in the context of his morality.

I promise I'll shut up now! For anyone vaguely interested I recommend reading the section of this post about Tyrion: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76786-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xv/?p=3854140

It's from a part of an essay about her sexuality and empowerment, so a bit of a different perspective, but an excellent read/insight into their dynamics.

[Game Of Thrones]

What Julia Martell said about the Tysha situation (though he's not entirely blameless there...just most of that situation can't be laid at his feet), and also prostitutes in Westeros "have a choice" in their profession, where as sex slaves do not. They can't turn down customers, and they inherently can't give consent. Tyrion was brought up to in a society where slavery is not okay, and he knows better. He also sees that her eyes look dead, she's horrified by him, and she "cries out in distress" after he vomits all over the place, but he fucks her (twice) nonetheless, all out of self-loathing. Which is a pretty horrible, misogynistic way to deal with your own issues, I'd say.

:agree:

[KingOfTheRock]

Interestingly Sansa thinks of him as being rather "kind," at least in hindsight of the marriage. But from our 3rd party view, it's hard for me to give Tyrion much credit there given their ages and his complete dismissal of her character.

I'm not saying Tyrion is Ramsay; he's not. In some ways that's almost worse though, because he has the capacity to be good, and just isn't. Tyrion is an incredibly self-centered guy, and the way he acts like a martyr about their marriage when she is a terrified, 12 year old prisoner, is a pretty telling sign in the context of his morality.

I promise I'll shut up now! For anyone vaguely interested I recommend reading the section of this post about Tyrion: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76786-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xv/?p=3854140

It's from a part of an essay about her sexuality and empowerment, so a bit of a different perspective, but an excellent read/insight into their dynamics.

Yeah, the thing is, he wants love so badly. But when someone doesn't give it to him, he becomes very bitter and thinks he's the one suffering through it all, which is REALLY bad, and if he wants me to be his #1 fan by the end of the series, he's going to have to get over that.

[Queen of Whores]

Right now in ADWD: Jaime

But, in the beginning of the series: Tyrion

Yeah this is the most reasonable answer imo.

[Lee-Sensei]

Before he found out about Tysha, I'd say Tyrion was a better person. Afterwards, I'd say Jaime.

[INCBlackbird]

I don't think morality has much to do with someone's actions... their morality can be analysed through them, but not from the actions alone, but about how they feel about those actions. do they feel guilty? do they not feel anything? do they enjoy it? I think their background needs to be taken into account as well. when looking at these two characters specifically ::

both Jaime and Tyrion are traumatized, but in very different ways. Tyrion has been resented and laughed at his entire life, to the point of abuse, as a result he's become a pretty selfish person (which I do not blame him for) who is desparate for love and can be very spitefull (much like his sister) when he's deluded himself into getting it from someone only to be proven wrong (see shae). but he can also show compassion, though not as much as he prides himself in.

Jaime killed his first man at a very young age (I don't remember specifically), became a kings guard member at 15 and had to stand by as the mad king tortured and killed people in horrible ways, raped his wife... and according to the (flawed) moral code of the world he lived in jaime was told to do nothing. Jaime often mentions how he would "go away in his mind" (which is what rape victims tend to do as far as I know, it's a reaction to a traumatic experience) eventually Jaime followed his own moral code and killed aerys. as a result of seeing so much death and distruction though, I think Jaime has become "used" to killing and it's probably also a reflex for him. I don't remember the exact quote but I think that at some point he mentions something like pushing bran out the window was a "reflex" or something along those lines, which obviously don't excuse it but that's the perspective I see it in. (and yes! there always is a perspective to see that stuff in! even with ramsay! in his case the perspective would be "he enjoys it"). but Jaime does have a moral compass and I think it is mostly based on what he saw aerys do and how much he disagrees with those things being done to others.

overall I think Jaime is more moral, but that's just personal preferance on which morals I hold in higher regards.

(i'd also like to say that I find the world evil being thrown around when talking about these two laughable, especially by people who are so biased that they say Jaime pushing bran out the window to save him, cercei and their children is not a valid reason because Jaime and cercei are evil... and therefore jaime is evil... LOL! really?)

[David Selig]

Jaime's appropriate category is "really, really dumb evil."

Well . . .

Sure, I think he is really dumb, but this seems too much even for him.

It's not so much as dumb but hotheaded. They way I always thought what happened there was something like:

Jaime finds out about Tyrion's capture. He knows Tyrion is innocent and his first thought is that he wants to kill the Starks. He searches for Eddard and kills his guards, because he knows that Tyrion would die if he kills Eddard. Obviously this produced no results, but Jaime was always the ''better to do something than wait'' type of guy.

Jaime didn't know Tyrion was innocent. Based on what he knew Tyrion was by far the most likely suspect for arranging the attack on Bran. Not that Jaime would care either way, for him Lannisters are above the law.

Killing the guards will only make Ned and Cat more angry at the Lannisters and and Robert less inclined to take their side thus will make the situation worse for Tyrion. Surely even a dumbass like Jaime could see that.

[Tolsimir]

Sure, I think he is really dumb, but this seems too much even for him.

Jaime didn't know Tyrion was innocent. Based on what he knew Tyrion was by far the most likely suspect for arranging the attack on Bran. Not that Jaime would care either way, for him Lannisters are above the law.

Killing the guards will only make Ned and Cat more angry at the Lannisters and and Robert less inclined to take their side thus will make the situation worse for Tyrion. Surely even a dumbass like Jaime could see that.

He knew Tyrion was innocent because he knew the reason someone would want Bran dead. And Tyrion had nothing to do with it.

And no, I don't think Jaime could see how serious his actions were.

[David Selig]

He knew Tyrion was innocent because he knew the reason someone would want Bran dead. And Tyrion had nothing to do with it.

Could you elaborate on this? What reason would that be?

Jaime knew Tyrion suspected it was him or Cersei who had crippled Bran and that Jaime didn't want bran to wake up. This is pretty clear from Tyrion's first chapter. Thus Tyrion should've been the most likely suspect in his mind.

[Dofs]

Jaime knew Tyrion suspected it was him or Cersei who had crippled Bran and that Jaime didn't want bran to wake up. This is pretty clear from Tyrion's first chapter. Thus Tyrion should've been the most likely suspect in his mind.

May be should have but he was not. Jaime was 100% sure that Tyrion was innocent. He says so to Cat.

[David Selig]

May be should have but he was not. Jaime was 100% sure that Tyrion was innocent. He says so to Cat.

Well, if he said it, than it must be true then, him being a moral paragon and all...

[Dofs]

Well, if he said it, than it must be true then, him being a moral paragon and all...

He said that when he admitted his incest with Cersei and that all her kids are his, and that he pushed Bran from the window. Tell me a reason why he would lie about Tyrion at that moment. Also, there is not even a hint or anything in the books on which it can be based that Jaime thought Tyrion guilty. Or else I've missed it and you are free to provide a quote. Whereas Jaime plainly said that Tyrion was innocent and I have no reason to not believe that he really thought so.

[WolfOfWinter]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is Tyrion arming the mountain clans so they'd attack the commonfolk of the Vale just because he was pissed at Lysa:

That was the trouble with the clans; they had an absurd notion that every man's voice should be heard in council, so they argued about everything, endlessly. Even their women were allowed to speak. Small wonder that it had been hundreds of years since they last threatened the Vale with anything beyond an occasional raid. Tyrion meant to change that.
-----
Tyrion was about to tell his lord father how he proposed to reduce the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland, but he was never given the chance.

We later, in aFfC I believe, learn they've been pillaging, killing and raping the commonfolk.

[Wmarshal]

Tyrion was greatly traumatized and in a hugely fucked up state of mind. Jaime barely saw Bran as a person, he didn't even think TWICE about pushing him out. It's a much more casual cruelty than Tyrion's and that makes it worse imo.

And "doing it for Cersei" is a dumb justification, considering she didn't even want him to do it. She thought it would be much better to manipulate or scare Bran because unlike Jaime, she realized that hurting the child of the future Hand of the King was not a wise idea.

Tyrion didn't think twice in giving a horde of barbarians weapons to rape and pillage smallfolk for no damn reason other then he was pissed by their lady.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

Tyrion didn't rape the whore in essos, he bought her and had sex with her twice just because she wasn't into it doesn't make it rape. People act like he found some girl walking down an alley alone and had his way with her.

[INCBlackbird]

@ prince lou of house reed : when you force someone to have sex with you when they are not into it, it is rape, regardless of if you payed for them or not...

[Chebyshov]

Tyrion didn't rape the whore in essos, he bought her and had sex with her twice just because she wasn't into it doesn't make it rape. People act like he found some girl walking down an alley alone and had his way with her.

She was a slave and therefore couldn't give consent. She had no way to refuse him. Tyrion knew this. Tyrion knew how damaged she was inside from all of it too ("I have just fucked a corpse") and yet went through with it twice, even after noticing the scar tissue on her back (so understanding her mistreatment) and being aware of her discomfort ("the whore cried out in distress"). There's a reason he thinks to himself, "this was a mistake. What a wretched creature I've become." It's inexcusable.