Who is Tommen's heir?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Insane and tyrannical, but rightly so. He wasn't wrong about the threat to his throne. He knew the north, storm, and vale lords were conspiring against him. The son of one of those high lords rode into the red keep demanding Rhaegar come out and die. The mad king had Rickard come down and beg for his sons life. He killed them both as a statement.

I dunno if I could call Aerys "tyrannical". As far as I remember, he never actually acted against someone who didn't deserved his wrath (so to speak) and his people wasn't mistreated. Aerys was only a threat for the nobles. Big shock he was taken down.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

I would imagine Ser Pounce holds that distinction

[Boarsbane]

I dunno if I could call Aerys "tyrannical". As far as I remember, he never actually acted against someone who didn't deserved his wrath (so to speak) and his people wasn't mistreated. Aerys was only a threat for the nobles. Big shock he was taken down.

Nobles are people too

[Universal Sword Donor]

I dunno if I could call Aerys "tyrannical". As far as I remember, he never actually acted against someone who didn't deserved his wrath (so to speak) and his people wasn't mistreated. Aerys was only a threat for the nobles. Big shock he was taken down.

He wouldn't have been until the last year of his rule.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Nobles are people too

not really too noble, apparently. They don't fight alone, and sometimes, they call men to fight because they got their prides hurt.

[Trigger Warning]

5. GENDRY - he is the eldest male bastard - Stannis in particular would not give a damn if he was of noble birth. Gendry married to Shireen would be one possibility. Gendry married to Arya or Sansa would be possible too, or Arianne Martell

6. Edrik Storm - but only if he strengthened his claim by a powerful marriage - Shireen, Arya, Sansa (if Tyrion marriage annulled), Myrcella, Arianne Martell

How is Gendry above Edric in the feudal pecking order when Edric is an acknowledged bastard of noble birth despite his bastardy that was fostered at Storm's End by Renly Baratheon. I highly doubt that if Stannis had both Gendry and Edric in his power and was to marry his daughter to one of them that he would choose Gendry over Edric.

[Arataniello]

Excellent. Very clear parallel.

Another reference point in RW history might be The Anarchy in England's history. After his son died, Henry I tried to have his daughter Matilda recognised as heir. But when Henry died, his nephew Stephen became king. Matilda (with her husband), fought a war for the throne that lasted years. Stephen wanted his son Eustace recognised as heir but Matilda fought to a stalemate. In the settlement, Stephen remained king but recognised Matilda's son Henry as heir. When Stephen died, Henry became Henry II.

Although Matilda and her son were considered traitors in Stephen's regime, the balance of power forced a compromise, which allowed the kingdom avoid having a queen regnant. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but Stannis being "attainted" doesn't preclude him from being recognised as heir to Tommen. Of couse, would only be relevant if/when the much younger Tommen dies.

The Anarchy is much more of a template for the Dance of Dragons.

[Luddsthirdmorph]

Acolyte

I think that Selyse would choose Edrik over Gendry but not Stannis. Stannis appointed Davos as hand. Stannis was a guy from Flea Bottom. Stannis more than anyone else in the whole of Westeros values people for whom they are not their name. However Stannis is rigidly just and legalistic, and would make NO distinction between an acknowledged bastard and one that was not acknowledged. Gendry is the elder boy and therefore will be Stannis's heir after Shireen.

[BrianBoru]

The Anarchy is much more of a template for the Dance of Dragons.

I acknowledged that Brav's reference to the removal of Edward V from the throne had "very clear parallels" with the question of Tommen's reign and successor. My point was that Stannis being attainted does not necessarily permanently remove him from Tommen's succession, as so many previous commenters on this thread seem to believe.

[Alistair Stark]

Probably a stupid question but, in my opinion, kind of worthy for discussing. What if the High Sparrow instead made a move for the throne? Not to sit on it, but to pretty much dismantle the noble rule and instill a Divine Ruling, with the church in complete power? He's got the frenzied, zealous Faith Millitiant to back him up, as well as the common people (to our knowledge, we only know King's Landing is behind him) who really do outnumber the nobility of Westeros.

I don't see it happening, of course, but it's nice to think about.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Well, Cersei tells Ned that none of Robert's children are his and the mothers usually know best about the parentage of their children. :)

But Cersei is batshit crazy and not very cunning at all. Her "methods" could easily not have worked.

[A Man Reads]

The interesting part is who Myrcella's heir is. Lannister or Florent? Tyrell or Martell? Cersei?

I think there is a more interesting question: How far down the "House Baratheon of King's Landing" line can you go before the kingdoms turn to a rival claimant instead.

[Marcus Agrippa]

If F Aegon claims it then it goes back to the targs right? You know his impact just really hit me right this second. He could really leave westeros competely broken if he claims the throne.

[RoamingRonin]

Tommen would have to name someone his heir. There are no relatives next in time for him.

ETA: Myrcella would be next but I get the feeling she's dead.

[chriscrowing]

Under normal circumstances, the end of Robert Baratheon's (supposed) line would mean the crown passed down the male line at the first juncture, i.e. to Stannis, then Shireen.

Of course, the Lannister/Tyrell faction in control of the throne wouldn't have that and would favour Myrcella as a reigning Queen (indeed the wiki agrees with this) which would probably suit Dorne quite nicely, seeing as they are in possession of Myrcella and she is betrothed to Prince Trystane.

Another option would be for Margaery to get knocked up sharpish and pass it off as Tommen's, although that's a bit of stretch given that he's 9 and I don't know if the Tyrell's would stoop THAT low, or if the Lannisters would let them.

Now, if we assume that Stannis' line is attainted and Myrcella doesn't survive her sojourn in Dorne and the real icky options are discounted... who would be the rightful heir?

Robert never legitimised his bastards, so even though Edric Storm is a known child of his he can't inherit, although this could be fudged, he's not a rightful heir.

It's worth remembering that Robert's original claim was shoddily legitimised due to his Targaryen ancestry, which would throw that line back into 'legitimate' contention, making Aegon or Dany the rightful heir - a case strengthened by the fact that Baratheon's claim was pretty tenuous and his actual accession was via conquest.

--

So, practically speaking the faction currently in control of the Iron Throne would go with Myrcella, while removed from Lannister loyalties the rightful King, depending on your view of the Targaryens would either be Stannis of Aegon/Dany.

Or Jon Snow, if he is outed as Rhaegar's legitimate son and Aegon proves to be false.

Or Mace Tyrrel could just grab power and rule as regent for Margaery, as Tommen's widow. Sillier things have happened and legitimacy is a malleable thing that tends to be moulded by the academics at the behest of whoever is in a position of real power.

[titanx5]

Robert Baratheon, supported by Starks and the Vale rebelled against an insane and tyrannical king. They had good reason (or at least the Starks did). Now why Rhaegar was also involved is less clear, but once a rebellion starts each person must choose sides and Rhaegar presumably chose to side with his father, just as Stannis reluctantly sided with Robert.

Now Robert's fig leaf was that he was the rightful TARGARYAN heir once you exclude descendents of the mad king. However it was pretty weak case because Rhaegar, Viserys and baby Aegon could each have replaced the mad king. Rhaenys also. Dany was not yet born.

Succession is about POWER.

So if you assume their is a Baratheon dynasty then the claimants are in order:

1. Tommen (ignoring the fact he is a bastard)

2. Myrcella (a girl is a weak claimant, but if married to Tristan also a Targ descendent her claim is strengthened

3. Stannis

4.Shireen (as per Myrcella - she would probably need to marry a strong house to secure her position, Robin Arran, Rickon Stark, Willas Tyrell, Tristan Martell, Jaime Lannister are really the only current guys around although I guess Devan Lannister May now be heir to Casterly Rock

5. GENDRY - he is the eldest male bastard - Stannis in particular would not give a damn if he was of noble birth. Gendry married to Shireen would be one possibility. Gendry married to Arya or Sansa would be possible too, or Arianne Martell

6. Edrik Storm - but only if he strengthened his claim by a powerful marriage - Shireen, Arya, Sansa (if Tyrion marriage annulled), Myrcella, Arianne Martell

7. Mya Stone - I think this unlikely because a bastard girl with no powerful friends is just to much of a stretch.

So once we exhaust the possible Baratheons, we need to go back further into the Targ dynasty

Egg had three sons. two of these sons appear to have been excluded from succession for some unknown reason. In the case of Duncan the small it was because of jenny of Oldstones. However who and where are his children. One assumes that any children by Jenny and Duncan would be about 40-50 years old and their children 15-30. Also what about the other son. Where did he go and who did he marry. So which characters have we met about whom we have NO history and could be candidates for such descendents - Howland Reed!!!!!!!!!, Bronn, Podrick, various people in Essos, Varys, wildings - Mance etc.

After we have gone through all the Baratheon options, would it then go according to bloodline of House Durrendon or Targ. So would the Estermonts have a claim? Or doesnt House Boiling or Wensington have Durrendon ties? I know its a stretch. Or would the Martells be further up the chain than those houses?

[Universal Sword Donor]

After we have gone through all the Baratheon options, would it then go according to bloodline of House Durrendon or Targ. So would the Estermonts have a claim? Or doesnt House Boiling or Wensington have Durrendon ties? I know its a stretch. Or would the Martells be further up the chain than those houses?

Those links would be so far back as to not be useful. The Estermonts wouldn't have a claim, as their relation to the Baratherons by marriage only (outside of the living few).

[Salafi Stannis]

I dunno if I could call Aerys "tyrannical". As far as I remember, he never actually acted against someone who didn't deserved his wrath (so to speak) and his people wasn't mistreated. Aerys was only a threat for the nobles. Big shock he was taken down.

Aerys was a tyrant, for example planned burning of KL was tyrannical. And I assume by "so to speak" you mean, "In his insane imagination".

[Trigger Warning]

Planned burning of KL wasn't tyrannical? And I assume by "so to speak" you mean, "In his insane imagination".

I think the point is more that generally his reign and madness didn't affect much outside of his small sphere of direct influence in King's Landing pre rebellion.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Aerys was a tyrant, for example planned burning of KL was tyrannical. And I assume by "so to speak" you mean, "In his insane imagination".

He only decided that after his heir was killed and he was likely to lose and being captured. No one denies he was mad, but his madness never affected his people, but many lords' pride.