Sansa the Stark Savior? I think not.

[Dya of Oldstones]

I think Baratheon is the only family GRRM mentions as being easily ID'd from looks, with the hint being "the seed is strong." It wasn't absolute proof of Cersei's children being fathered by Jaime, but a very strong hint nonetheless.

[Mladen]

Sansa is a pretty far stretch from what little we know of Lyanna Stark...

You mean, what we can conclude like falling in love with the Crown Prince, choosing him which through te unfortunate chain of the events led to her family members' deaths. And ob top of that is the blie rose/Bael the Bard symbolism and Sansa and Lyanna's stoties paralleling that story in many aspects. It is not weak parallel at all and what we can conclude about Lyanna is strikingly similar to Sansa's arc.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Not only that in the books Sansa is a Stark but you actually say that she is not Stark while at the same time you seem unable to pinpoint what does Stark identity entails.

You say that Arya has a Stark identity to comr back and Sansa doesn't based on what? That Arya loves home and Sansa doesn't? Well, that would be wrong. There is not one chapter where Sansa isn't yearning for home. Snow castle scene is magnificent example of that. Sansa has aleays identified herself as a Stark, daughter of Ned and Catelyn. Comparison between Sansa and her parents, we actually see that Sansa is far closer to Ned than she is to practical Cat, something Arya genuinely is. You say that Nymeria has been killing Freys which is only half correct - Nymeria isn't very picky when it comes to ehom her pack will slaughter.

So, how about we clear out what Stark identity is supposed to be before we claim one or another member isn't part of it? And when we are up to that, someone please say me who is more Lannister, Cersei or Tyrion or more Tyrell, Loras or Garlan... Pointless, ah? Certainly, just ad it is pointless to actually create family identity based on preferences.

I listed what I consider Stark traits. Physical traits and character traits.

Red Wedding Cake, on 02 Sept 2014 - 5:03 PM, said:

I'd say loyalty and indomitable will are big pieces, but that outs me as a Northern supremacist >_>

There's the hereditary physical features which identify characters and their families all over the place. So I feel it means something when Sansa has red hair, blue eyes, high cheekbones a pretty smile and a graceful body. Stark features are brown hair, grey eyes, long face, and a body suitable for fighting or at least to withstand the cold.

The cold is a big part of the Starks and the North. Winter is coming and all that. I believe it takes an indomitable will not just to withstand the bitter cold, but to thrive in it for generations. It also puts focus on planning well in advance and not wasting any time, for if all of Spring and Summer are spent postponing work or prolonging disputes then Winter would be especially difficult.

Loyalty, duty, and honor to a fault. A lot of this is exemplified by Nedd and it's arguable how much the Stark kids live up to the strict code of conduct, but you can't deny it's a strong running theme throughout anything Stark related and in much of the North.

Then there's Winterfell, the North, and the Stark name itself which spreads out further than individual characters.

Generally, the opinions like this is something I don't understand where does it come from and more I usually wonder how things like this are deeply incorporated in mindset of readerhip.

1. Loyalty is not a Northern trait. Boltons being the obvious example of that... Also, while the surrounding doesn't allow some great political turmoils, it should be noted that Northerners are not that far from Southerners in thrir preparness to get hands dirty when needed.

2. Sansa's looks doesn't withstand cold? LOL... I suppose that we have to wonder how Bran with rhe same Tully traits actually managed to survive that cold in ASOS and ADWD.

3. Then there are Ned qualities that prople take as Northern equalizing One individual with entire region. Which is, BTW, completely wrong. Let we speak about Jorah, Boltons, Manderly and his pies, Whorebane, Rickard Karstarks etc... Furthermore, if we are to speak about what Ned passed to his kids, we wouldn't find much of what is persumed to be "of the North".

The Boltons are not Starks. If you don't think loyalty matters to the North then you haven't been reading half of the series.

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

What do you mean? How can she continue the line? Sure, there will be Stark blood, but the Stark name will die, no?

In Dorne there have been female heads of House Martell and their husbands took the female's name in those cases. So there is a precedent for it.

[Red Wedding Cake]

You mean, what we can conclude like falling in love with the Crown Prince, choosing him which through te unfortunate chain of the events led to her family members' deaths. And ob top of that is the blie rose/Bael the Bard symbolism and Sansa and Lyanna's stoties paralleling that story in many aspects. It is not weak parallel at all and what we can conclude about Lyanna is strikingly similar to Sansa's arc.

Lyanna was athletic and assertive and (maybe?) fell in love with the prince because she didn't care what anyone thought. Sansa is passive and fell in love with being in love with the prince because, well, he was the prince and her family was encouraging it.

[Mladen]

I listed what I consider Stark traits. Physical traits and character traits.

The Boltons are not Starks. If you don't think loyalty matters to the North then you haven't been reading half of the series.

1. You have been contradictong yourself with choosing Sansa when in fact Bran, Robb and Rickon shares the same physical appearence. As was already said, Bran even wanted to become a knight. Does it make him any less Stark? Not to mention the Brandon/Eddard stark contrast and basic implausibility of creating "Stark identity" having these two in mind.

2. I have read the entire series multiple times, if you are interested in that data.

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

Lyanna was athletic and assertive and (maybe?) fell in love with the prince because she didn't care what anyone thought. Sansa is passive and fell in love with being in love with the prince because, well, he was the prince and her family was encouraging it.

It's ridiculous to ignore the parallels between Sansa and her aunt Lyanna. Just because Arya is mentioned as looking like her and having the wolf's blood doesn't mean she has a monopoly on being similar to Lyanna. Lyanna was the "wolf maid" who cried at Rhaegar's songs and was the girl who ran off with him, everyone else be damned. That really doesn't sound like Arya to me: it sounds like Sansa.

[Lee-Sensei]

The Boltons are not Starks. If you don't think loyalty matters to the North then you haven't been reading half of the series.

Ryswell, Dustin, Karstark and Bolton have already proven to be disloyal. The Westerlands have more loyal bannermen from what we've seen.

[Mladen]

Lyanna was athletic and assertive and (maybe?) fell in love with the prince because she didn't care what anyone thought. Sansa is passive and fell in love with being in love with the prince because, well, he was the prince and her family was encouraging it.

No one said that Lyanna and Sansa are the same person, but they do share some narratibe points.

1. Lyanna fell for Rhaegar DESPITE what people thought.

2. How is Sansa passive when she took rather active step to be with Joffrey? Just like Lyanna with Rhaegar.

3. Sansa's family encouraged it? Do you want to say that Ned pushed that marriage on Sansa?

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Count me in as one of those who believes at least some of the pack actually ​will survive and reunite in some fashion before the end of the series.

All of the Stark children, as well as Daenerys, Tyrion, and the other younger POV characters, have already slipped into the realm of rumor, speculation, and legend... and the real war hasn't even really begun yet. Of course, they have been talking about Dany around the world since AGOT, and about Tyrion since his birth, but the Stark children are now the Planetos equivalent of the Princes in the Tower in our world.

Now, GRRM could very well be writing one of those tales where he plays that trope straight and none of the Starks are ever heard from again. They never regain Winterfell, at least, not openly... and only the reader knows what becomes of them.

This is not that kind of story.

Sansa and Arya are both She-Wolves of Winterfell. Is it significant that Sansa lost Lady? Yes. However, I'd argue that losing Lady and being able to subsume some of her wolf identity is the ONLY reason Sansa is still alive. It symbolizes that some of her Stark identity has been hidden, as surely as Lyanna's strong genes hiding any Drago traits have likely protected Jon's life. The curse of losing Lady may actually turn out to be quite fortunate in her case.

An adult Sansa in the height of the Long Night will absolutely be the most politically astute of the Stark kids. We know less about what Rickon is doing, but Arya, Sansa, and Bran are all gaining skills that will matter not only for regaining Winterfell, but really for battling for the Dawn. Not all of them may survive, but there's a reason why the patriarch, matriarch, heir & the alternate heir "hidden prince" are unavailable by this point in the story...

Young Sansa left Winterfell with her eyes a-star, her heart filled with dreams of a prince, and courtly songs in her head... but mature Sansa will be spoken of in the centuries to come as the Lady of the North. I was convinced of that by the end of AFFC.

One of my favorite postwar head canons is of a surviving, middle-aged Sansa, still preternaturally beautiful, wandering through the Godswood in silence and solitude, keeping tryst with ghosts. The Starks will continue, either through Bran or Rickon's line, or perhaps Sansa ends up in a political marriage of her choosing with one of the Stark banner men, who then take the Stark name.

What happened to Marillion killed Sansa's love of all those pretty songs, but a grateful, less populated Westeros will someday sing songs for her. Just as they will sing songs for her brothers and sisters...

I do not think she ends up happily ever after, but then, I don't believe anyone gets a traditional happy ending in this series. After all, this is the song of ice and fire.

Let we clear the first thing here, Sansa is NOT a Lannister, she is Stark... I dare anyone to find me "Sansa Lannister" being used in the books, beside Stannis' offensive hypocrisy. On the other hand, I can quote numerous people from Brienne and smallfolk to Tyrells and Lannisters calling her "Sansa Stark". That clearly shows where she is when entire mess of her marriage is.

Second, "Stark savior/renaissance or whatever term we use" is not for a single Stark to achieve. This family is about pack mentality, they are wolves of the North and in such line, the Stark restoration will, IMO, happen. Jon, Sansa, Bran, Arya and Rickon will all have different roles in restoring Starks to their full power. We can argue that Jon will be the political beacon upon which North will gather, Sansa playing the role of matriarch of the House, using both the Game and her natural kindness for certain goals, Arya giving some advantage with some murder, Bran with his powers. In many ways, this House has never been about the individual, but the pack, and as such, it needs to be restore. So, just as the premise that OP tried to reject is false, so is the premise that Sansa will be irrelevant for Winterfell.

Third, maternal lines count. And they always did. Just as Lyanna being Stark and passing that to Jon genetically is important, or Asha and her Harlaw roots, Stark children and their Tully inheritance, Mormont women and so on and on... And as such, it is not impossible to actually leave the option open for Sansa and her child getting the North (although, personally, that with many theories about her being QitN and so on are basically wishful thinking).

This, and basically everything Mladen has said on this and other threads about the Stark girls. She says it far better than I ever could. Ridiculous to think that Sansa is not a real Stark... any more than people thinking Ghost isn't a real Direwolf.

[kimim]

Re appearance and character: The kids have two parents. Father=North, Mother=South. The kids are a combination of both. Sansa, who looks like mommy, is training to be a trickster diplomat. This is South; at least it isn't Ned Stark. Arya, who looks like daddy, is in Braavos learning to be a faceless assassin. That's about as far from Ned's ideals as you can get, but Nymeria could help her create/recreate a Northern identity. Bran, who resembles a Tully, is off becoming a tree. Or something. I'm not sure if this makes him, North, South, East, West, or human. Rickon is feral. He looks Tully. Is this North/South/what???

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Ryswell, Dustin, Karstark and Bolton have already proven to be disloyal. The Westerlands have more loyal bannermen from what we've seen.

That is a troll statement. We don't have a Westerlands POV, so their current status or loyalty is a complete unknown. There's just silence, as of now.

Plus, Ryswell and Dustin aren't true friends of the Boltons. Lady Dustin reminds them that both houses lost men at the RW. They only declared for Bolton after the Stark defeat was assured. They didn't participate in the coup. The GNC makes a good case that both houses are already in league with Manderly to betray the Boltons. When Little Walder turns up dead, The Boltons are seen in the main Hall and are very angry and agitated, but the Ryswell and Dustin men are laughing and making jokes.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

As I personally hate the show with a fire of a thousand burning passions, I do have to bring it also as a point, since Littlefinger said something along the lines there that foreshadowed Sansa's eventual return to Winterfell. And we know D&D like to hit us with information via sledgehammer.

But personally, although I think Sansa's going to play a major role in rebuilding Winterfell, she won't be the only one.

[Red Wedding Cake]

You have been contradictong yourself with choosing Sansa when in fact Bran, Robb and Rickon shares the same physical appearence. As was already said, Bran even wanted to become a knight. Does it make him any less Stark? Not to mention the Brandon/Eddard stark contrast and basic implausibility of creating "Stark identity" having these two in mind.

Bran, Robb, and Rickon all have Tully appearance and that is a knock against them for Stark appearance. Bran had an intense love of riding and has dedicated himself to the Old Gods. Robb rose the Stark banners to try and save his family. Rickon still has his direwolf. They all keep their name. They are all have more Stark identity than Sansa.

It's ridiculous to ignore the parallels between Sansa and her aunt Lyanna. Just because Arya is mentioned as looking like her and having the wolf's blood doesn't mean she has a monopoly on being similar to Lyanna. Lyanna was the "wolf maid" who cried at Rhaegar's songs and was the girl who ran off with him, everyone else be damned. That really doesn't sound like Arya to me: it sounds like Sansa.

Lyanna was a fierce competitor who (in all likelyhood) joined the Tourney of Joy in secret. Fought off bullies, loved to ride on a horse, protected Stark bannerman, and happened to fall in love. If you want to draw a parallel with Arya she could fall in love. If you want to take the Sansa parallel with Lyanna to its conclusion she ends up pregnant with someone's son and makes her brother swear a secret oath to conceal the paternity of the child. It's absurd. Either the parallel leads to craziness or it's so loose as to mean nothing. Lyanna is her own character with a lot of Stark qualities, none of which are reflected by Sansa. Note: I don't consider falling in love and getting your brothers killed a reflection of Stark identity.

Ryswell, Dustin, Karstark and Bolton have already proven to be disloyal. The Westerlands have more loyal bannermen from what we've seen.

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell"

"The North remembers"

You named 4/60 Northern Houses. There is still House Ashwood, House Blackmyre, House Boggs, House Boles, House Branch... House Glover, House Harclay, House Hornwood... House Manderly, House Marsh, House Mollen, House Mormont... House Poole, House Reed, at least half of House Umber...

Do you really think the North in general are as disloyal as the Westerlands and the Lannisters? The entire Westerlands would rise up for a little bit of gold, and they'd oust the Lannisters the second they don't have any money. Meanwhile we had House Reyne and House Westerling and the Lannisters themselves with treachery and uprisings.

No one said that Lyanna and Sansa are the same person, but they do share some narratibe points.

1. Lyanna fell for Rhaegar DESPITE what people thought.

2. How is Sansa passive when she took rather active step to be with Joffrey? Just like Lyanna with Rhaegar.

3. Sansa's family encouraged it? Do you want to say that Ned pushed that marriage on Sansa?

Lyanna and Sansa are far more different than they are similar.

Sansa informing Cersei that her family was leaving King's Landing is the most active thing Sansa has done besides refusing to kneel so Tyrion could put his wedding cloak over her shoulders...

Ned and Robert had hopes of marrying Joffrey and Sansa. It was encouraged until Robert was killed. Ned put the breaks on when he learned Joffrey was a Lannister bastard and his mother was seizing the throne. Sansa rejected her father and fled into the arms of Cersei, thus having her father killed.

[Lee-Sensei]

That is a troll statement. We don't have a Westerlands POV, so their current status or loyalty is a complete unknown. There's just silence, as of now.

Plus, Ryswell and Dustin aren't true friends of the Boltons. Lady Dustin reminds them that both houses lost men at the RW. They only declared for Bolton after the Stark defeat was assured. They didn't participate in the coup. The GNC makes a good case that both houses are already in league with Manderly to betray the Boltons. When Little Walder turns up dead, The Boltons are seen in the main Hall and are very angry and agitated, but the Ryswell and Dustin men are laughing and making jokes.

We know that the only family to betray the Lannisters, were secretly working for the Lannisters the entire time. It's not a troll statement. It's the truth.

Ryswell and Dustin are friends of the Boltons. They want to avenge their losses against the Frey's, but they're certainly not loyal to the Starks. They waited until the Starks were defeated for the same reason that Roose stayed loyal during Robert's Rebellion. They didn't have the strength to fight back. I don't believe the GNC. They don't care about the Frey's. There's no evidence that it's out of loyalty to the Starks.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

We know that the only family to betray the Lannisters, were secretly working for the Lannisters the entire time. It's not a troll statement. It's the truth.

Ryswell and Dustin are friends of the Boltons. They want to avenge their losses against the Frey's, but they're certainly not loyal to the Starks. They waited until the Starks were defeated for the same reason that Roose stayed loyal during Robert's Rebellion. They didn't have the strength to fight back. I don't believe the GNC. They don't care about the Frey's. There's no evidence that it's out of loyalty to the Starks.

You're not counting the Tarbecks and Reynes. The GNC's case is solid.

Think it through, The Ryswells have no current blood ties to House Bolton. Domeric is dead, and they suspects Ramsay's part in it, as does Barbary Dustin. They know that Roose Bolton helped kill their men that had rode with Robb.

Lady Dustin may hate Ned, but Ned is dead, while Ramsay is a flesh and blood problem, and Roose inspires no love outside his own vassals.

If Dustin and Ryswell would be so eager to betray the Starks, then why weren't they included in Red Wedding conspiracy? Why do they treat the murder of Bolton's critical allies as a butt of jokes, when it clearly unnerves Roose. ROOSE, a man not easily intimidated.

While the Boltons are one of those continuously discontent bannermen, like the Reynes, Florents and Yronwoods, the Ryswells and Dustins have not such history. The Karstarks simply join the precedent set by the Greystarks that cadet branches can't be trusted.

There's simply is little to suggest that the North or the Westerlands have especially unique bannermen that are especially loyal or disloyal.

[Lee-Sensei]

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell"

"The North remembers"

You named 4/60 Northern Houses. There is still House Ashwood, House Blackmyre, House Boggs, House Boles, House Branch... House Glover, House Harclay, House Hornwood... House Manderly, House Marsh, House Mollen, House Mormont... House Poole, House Reed, at least half of House Umber...

Do you really think the North in general are as disloyal as the Westerlands and the Lannisters? The entire Westerlands would rise up for a little bit of gold, and they'd oust the Lannisters the second they don't have any money. Meanwhile we had House Reyne and House Westerling and the Lannisters themselves with treachery and uprisings.

1) 60 Noble Houses? It's probably between 15 and 20 Noble Houses. You've even counted a steward House. The Noble Houses and maybe the Masterly Houses are the ones that matter.

2) No. I don't think that the North is as disloyal as the Westerlands, because the Westerlands haven't proven to be disloyal.

3) I always see this being said. What evidence do you have the Westernlords would betray the Lanisters so easily? Nothing in the story has suggested that they're that disloyal to the Lannisters.

4) House Reyne rose up 40 years ago. Why not just count the Greystarks. We're talking about characters in the present.

[Lee-Sensei]

You're not counting the Tarbecks and Reynes. The GNC's case is solid.

Think it through, The Ryswells have no current blood ties to House Bolton. Domeric is dead, and they suspects Ramsay's part in it, as does Barbary Dustin. They know that Roose Bolton helped kill their men that had rode with Robb.

Lady Dustin may hate Ned, but Ned is dead, while Ramsay is a flesh and blood problem, and Roose inspires no love outside his own vassals.

If Dustin and Ryswell would be so eager to betray the Starks, then why weren't they included in Red Wedding conspiracy? Why do they treat the murder of Bolton's critical allies as a butt of jokes, when it clearly unnerves Roose. ROOSE, a man not easily intimidated.

While the Boltons are one of those continuously discontent bannermen, like the Reynes, Florents and Yronwoods, the Ryswells and Dustins have not such history. The Karstarks simply join the precedent set by the Greystarks that cadet branches can't be trusted.

There's simply is little to suggest that the North or the Westerlands have especially unique bannermen that are especially loyal or disloyal.

1) I'm not counting the Reyne's and Tarbecks because that happened a half a century ago. We're talking about the present.

2) The Roos married into the Ryswell family.

3) Ned was dead when Balon got his revenge too. Tywin is dead. Is that going to stop Doran?

4) Because breaking guest rights is a big no and it was dangerous. Who knows if they'd want to take that risk? They're upset about their own people being killed by the Frey's. Not about the rest as far as we know.

5) We aren't talking about history. We're talking about currently and currently the Ryswells and the Dustins aren't friends to the Starks. The same thing is true of the Karstarks.

6) That was my point actually. That no one has a monopoly on loyalty.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

1) I'm not counting the Reyne's and Tarbecks because that happened a half a century ago. We're talking about the present.

2) The Roos married into the Ryswell family.

3) Ned was dead when Balon got his revenge too. Tywin is dead. Is that going to stop Doran?

4) Because breaking guest rights is a big no and it was dangerous. Who knows if they'd want to take that risk? They're upset about their own people being killed by the Frey's. Not about the rest as far as we know.

5) We aren't talking about history. We're talking about currently and currently the Ryswells and the Dustins aren't friends to the Starks. The same thing is true of the Karstarks.

6) That was my point actually. That no one has a monopoly on loyalty.

But Roose's wife is dead and so is Domeric. They have no current blood ties, and Roose tells Ramsay that Lady Dustin suspects his part in Domerics death and she liked Domeric.

The difference is that holding onto a past grudge means having an unstable and hated ally to fight for. Why did Lady Dustin tell Theon to keep what she said about Ned secret even though A) she knows that Theon cannot possibly do that and B )why keep that away from Bolton? She sees that Iron swords are missing. She's pieced together that Bran and Rickon are alive, or Manderly's told her and she just confirmed it. She knows that no one will ever bow to a Bolton if there is a Stark heir that is free. Does she want to throw in her lot with the two houses who killed her own bannermen, especially it's likely they can't win that war? Be on the losing side just cause of a past grudge with a dead man, when the Boltons and Freys themselves have done you wrong? And Ramsay squanders your food and runs wild?

I don't think so.

The Boltons are in the same class of constantly disconted second-biggest fish in the pond: Florents, Reynes, Yronwoods. The Westerlands currently don't have a house like that cause they killed both of them (Reyne and Tarbeck) If you wanted to count the last 50 years, you could say that both the Westerlands and the North has seen a major revolt.

Go back a hundred, and you have the Skagosi rebelling once (again, they likely have ties to blood magic)

Go back a thousand, and you have no information about the Westerlands but we know that another cadet branch of the Starks revolted with the Boltons, the last true war the Boltons waged on their overlords, as of right now they've really only fought a coup. The Greystarks were exterminated for their rebellion, but Bolton somehow survived. (I'm guessing through Bolt-On)

[Red Wedding Cake]

The North is the only geographic area we're constantly told is loyal to the Starks. Whether or not you believe the North is loyal is up to you, but it's included for Stark identity and any kind of Stark Savior.

Sansa is pretending to be Littlefinger's bastard daughter Alayne Stone. You don't get any further from a Stark identity than changing your name from Stark. Without Sansa taking pride in an identity as a Stark, or taking a more active role to protect the North I don't see how she can be some sort of Stark savior. She's hiding. All her thoughts and energies have been going along with the people around her so she can survive I guess. I don't see her doing anything savior like for the North. At best she could save sweet Robin, but I don't see that happening either.