Sansa the Stark Savior? I think not.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Oy vey. I'd recommend rereading her arc...she's moving closer to her Stark routes with every passing chapter. If I was a 12-year old, I'd probably be more drawn to the culture of singing, tourneys, and warm weather rather than creepy trees and beheading NW escapees. Yet by ASOS we see her drawing her power from the snow and building a model of Winterfell.

Anyway, to echo what Mladen said, restoring House Stark would be much more satisfying for the pack to achieve. Especially because they have the wizard, the assassin, the politician, and the wild card.

I probably should reread Sansa's chapters, but even if she is moving closer to claiming a Stark identity she has a long way to go. We can empathize with her as a young girl that just wanted to fall in love with a prince and be a princess in a warm castle with singing and dancing and tourneys, we can empathize with her helplessness as she gave in to the Lannisters and how they forced her to renounce her family, we can say it isn't her fault that she had to marry Tyrion Lannister, how she didn't know Cersei would betray her and destroy her family, or how she didn't deserve to have her direwolf killed, or how she's looking to the man that brought her family's downfall for protection... but eventually we have to accept this has been happening for five books now. How many more chapters before we accept Sansa has lost her Stark identity and there's little indication she will get it back?

Sansa might have been 'drawing power from the snow' and enjoying herself building Winterfell in the snow, but it was smashed to pieces. She might have been embracing her memories of her brother Jon, and he was stabbed a dozen times and left to die. She did reunite with her aunt Lysa, and she was shoved out the moon door to her death. Her name is Alayne Stone now and she has just as much chance remaining Littlefinger's puppet as she does of standing up for herself or ever returning to what lies left of Winterfell.

I think any ideas of a satisfactory reunion of the Stark kids is bound to end up in disappointment, as was teased by Arya almost reuniting with Robb and Catelyn, Bran almost reuniting with Jon, Jon almost reuniting with Robb... It's just been too much.

[David Selig]

What is a Stark identity?

[Mladen]

I probably should reread Sansa's chapters, but even if she is moving closer to claiming a Stark identity she has a long way to go. We can empathize with her as a young girl that just wanted to fall in love with a prince and be a princess in a warm castle with singing and dancing and tourneys, we can empathize with her helplessness as she gave in to the Lannisters and how they forced her to renounce her family, we can say it isn't her fault that she had to marry Tyrion Lannister, how she didn't know Cersei would betray her and destroy her family, or how she didn't deserve to have her direwolf killed, or how she's looking to the man that brought her family's downfall for protection... but eventually we have to accept this has been happening for five books now. How many more chapters before we accept Sansa has lost her Stark identity and there's little indication she will get it back?

And how many chapters will pass until people realize she indeed is a Stark? Every of her chapter has strong Northern parallel - Lyanna's escape and Rickard and Brandon's death, Lyanna saving Howland paralleling Sansa saving Dontos, then we have "not a kneeler" with Tyrion, LF's mindgames failing because she reinstates herself as a Stark, and yeah f***ing snow castle scene. Your interpretation is completely off. Do you argue that Arya lost the North when she lost Needle? That in ASOS she wasn't a Stark? Furthermore, this is not Narnia and Sansa is not Susan who lost the right to come back. Sansa has been preserving her identity in perilous surrounding and she always recollected her family with great love and loyalty. Sansa is a Stark just as Arya, and given striking Ned personality trait, we can say that quiet she-wolf is returning to the North.

[Red Wedding Cake]

What is a Stark identity?

I'd say loyalty and indomitable will are big pieces, but that outs me as a Northern supremacist >_>

There's the hereditary physical features which identify characters and their families all over the place. So I feel it means something when Sansa has red hair, blue eyes, high cheekbones a pretty smile and a graceful body. Stark features are brown hair, grey eyes, long face, and a body suitable for fighting or at least to withstand the cold.

The cold is a big part of the Starks and the North. Winter is coming and all that. I believe it takes an indomitable will not just to withstand the bitter cold, but to thrive in it for generations. It also puts focus on planning well in advance and not wasting any time, for if all of Spring and Summer are spent postponing work or prolonging disputes then Winter would be especially difficult.

Loyalty, duty, and honor to a fault. A lot of this is exemplified by Nedd and it's arguable how much the Stark kids live up to the strict code of conduct, but you can't deny it's a strong running theme throughout anything Stark related and in much of the North.

Then there's Winterfell, the North, and the Stark name itself which spreads out further than individual characters.

[Mladen]

I'd say loyalty and indomitable will are big pieces, but that outs me as a Northern supremacist >_>

There's the hereditary physical features which identify characters and their families all over the place. So I feel it means something when Sansa has red hair, blue eyes, high cheekbones a pretty smile and a graceful body. Stark features are brown hair, grey eyes, long face, and a body suitable for fighting or at least to withstand the cold.

The cold is a big part of the Starks and the North. Winter is coming and all that. I believe it takes an indomitable will not just to withstand the bitter cold, but to thrive in it for generations. It also puts focus on planning well in advance and not wasting any time, for if all of Spring and Summer are spent postponing work or prolonging disputes then Winter would be especially difficult.

Loyalty, duty, and honor to a fault. A lot of this is exemplified by Nedd and it's arguable how much the Stark kids live up to the strict code of conduct, but you can't deny it's a strong running theme throughout anything Stark related and in much of the North.

Then there's Winterfell, the North, and the Stark name itself which spreads out further than individual characters.

Generally, the opinions like this is something I don't understand where does it come from and more I usually wonder how things like this are deeply incorporated in mindset of readerhip.

1. Loyalty is not a Northern trait. Boltons being the obvious example of that... Also, while the surrounding doesn't allow some great political turmoils, it should be noted that Northerners are not that far from Southerners in thrir preparness to get hands dirty when needed.

2. Sansa's looks doesn't withstand cold? LOL... I suppose that we have to wonder how Bran with rhe same Tully traits actually managed to survive that cold in ASOS and ADWD.

3. Then there are Ned qualities that prople take as Northern equalizing One individual with entire region. Which is, BTW, completely wrong. Let we speak about Jorah, Boltons, Manderly and his pies, Whorebane, Rickard Karstarks etc... Furthermore, if we are to speak about what Ned passed to his kids, we wouldn't find much of what is persumed to be "of the North".

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Ever heard of a Chiasmus? That's the literary structure in which 2 characters have inversed transformation. Arya and Sansa started the series in opposite positions: the former was more into the whole North/Stark thing, while the latter had her head full of southern ambitions.

But look where they are now. Arya is systematically forced to forget her whole identity (I don't think that's gonna happen, but whatever), while Sansa is grows more and more nostalgic for the North.

They're being pushed into the same direction, rather. Arya is supposed to be "no one" (at least as long as her apprenticeship with the FM lasts), Sansa is supposed to be Alayne (at least for the time being), both appear to acquiesce, neither really does.

[David Selig]

Loyalty, duty, and honor to a fault.

Hmm, this reminds of the words of a certain House...

[Chebyshov]

Hmm, this reminds of the words of a certain House...

Honor is coming.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I'd say loyalty and indomitable will are big pieces, but that outs me as a Northern supremacist >_>

There's the hereditary physical features which identify characters and their families all over the place. So I feel it means something when Sansa has red hair, blue eyes, high cheekbones a pretty smile and a graceful body.

Yes, you could recognize a sister of the last King in the North from first look. Or was Robb a southron, too?

Loyalty, duty, and honor to a fault. A lot of this is exemplified by Nedd and it's arguable how much the Stark kids live up to the strict code of conduct, but you can't deny it's a strong running theme throughout anything Stark related and in much of the North.

Funny how you quoted, almost verbatim, the words of House Tully of Riverrun. But those are, in fact, values universal to Westeros. Loyalty is good, treason is bad, pretty much everybody agrees on that, and some even practice what they preach.

[HexMachina]

Hmm, this reminds of the words of a certain House...

And reminds me nothing of certain other Starks whatsoever...

[HexMachina]

I'd say loyalty and indomitable will are big pieces, but that outs me as a Northern supremacist >_>

There's the hereditary physical features which identify characters and their families all over the place. So I feel it means something when Sansa has red hair, blue eyes, high cheekbones a pretty smile and a graceful body. Stark features are brown hair, grey eyes, long face, and a body suitable for fighting or at least to withstand the cold.

So Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Robb are not "Starks"?

[Chebyshov]

I'm still mystified how darker pigmentation allows for one to withstand the cold. Is the argument that Ayra is hairier than her siblings?

The worst that can be said of Sansa in terms of her "non Starkness" is that she favored the sept over the godswood in the beginning. But Bran wanted to be a knight, which is a southron practice involving the seven oils. So maybe these kids just were raised by parents from two regions and have their individual predilections?

[Mladen]

And reminds me nothing of certain other Starks whatsoever...

I swear one of theae days will bump my "Stark and northern honor" thread. Just for the sake of kicking this Northern supremacy one more time in groins :)

[Lee-Sensei]

Loyalty, duty, and honor to a fault. A lot of this is exemplified by Nedd and it's arguable how much the Stark kids live up to the strict code of conduct, but you can't deny it's a strong running theme throughout anything Stark related and in much of the North.

Then there's Winterfell, the North, and the Stark name itself which spreads out further than individual characters.

The Starks don't have a monopoly on loyalty, duty and honor.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Do you argue that Arya lost the North when she lost Needle? That in ASOS she wasn't a Stark? Furthermore, this is not Narnia and Sansa is not Susan who lost the right to come back. Sansa has been preserving her identity in perilous surrounding and she always recollected her family with great love and loyalty. Sansa is a Stark just as Arya, and given striking Ned personality trait, we can say that quiet she-wolf is returning to the North.

Arya has given up a lot of her Stark identity. Like Sansa, Arya does not have her direwolf. Unlike Lady however, Nymeria is still raising hell against Freys and Lannisters. Arya had lost Needle, but she since reclaimed it and keeps the sword hidden. Like Sansa (Alayne), Arya has taken on plenty of other names to hide that she is a Stark. Like Sansa, Arya has changed her appearance (dramatically) to cover her natural features. Arya has abandoned the Old Gods and the Seven in favor of her one true god -- Death. I don't think Arya is currently a good example of Stark identity, but even in her recent chapters I consider Arya more of a Stark than Sansa. At least Arya has a Stark identity to return to. If it weren't for her surname I'd dispute if Sansa was ever really a Stark at all.

And how many chapters will pass until people realize she indeed is a Stark? Every of her chapter has strong Northern parallel - Lyanna's escape and Rickard and Brandon's death, Lyanna saving Howland paralleling Sansa saving Dontos, then we have "not a kneeler" with Tyrion, LF's mindgames failing because she reinstates herself as a Stark, and yeah f***ing snow castle scene. Your interpretation is completely off.

Sansa is a pretty far stretch from what little we know of Lyanna Stark...

Lyanna saved Howland Reed from bullies by yelling at them for picking on the son of one of her father's men and attacking them with a tourney sword. Howland later became a loyal ally of House Stark and sent his only children to bring Bran on his journey. Sansa politely suggested Joff not kill Ser Dontos because it was bad luck. Dontos turned out to be loyal to Littlefinger and was killed so there wouldn't be any witnesses.

Rickard and Brandon Stark dying to rescue (?) Lyanna doesn't really define Lyanna as a character. If simply starting a war to reclaim a family member makes you Lyanna Stark then Tyrion Lannister might as well be the new she-wolf because of all the fighting Jaime and Tywin Lannister did to bring him back. If it's the deaths that count then Asha Greyjoy is still closer to a Lyanna Stark parallel than Sansa, but with so many people dying in this series I'm just going to say it's a weak parallel and leave it at that.

We don't really know what happened with Lyanna's escape (kidnapping?), but popular theory says she left willingly to marry Rhaegar Targaryen. If Sansa willingly marries or falls in love with Littlefinger then she's even less of a Stark than we've seen in the last 20 years (in my opinion).

I don't think Lyanna ever publically put down Robert Baratheon the way Sansa did with Tyrion Lannister, but if the situations were similar I could see it. It is really one of the few acts of defiance we ever see out of Sansa.

The power dynamic between Sansa and Littlefinger has a lot of questions going into the next book. Littlefinger wants to use Sansa's Stark name to control the North and for political maneuvering, and he's slipping while he lusts after Sansa as the image of Catelyn Tully, his childhood crush. I sincerely hope Sansa turns the tables, and I truly hope Sansa can take more of an active role and even make it to Winterfell or rally the North. I just don't see it happening. Sansa is a fine character in her own right, but I would not identify her as a Stark.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Woah, I missed out on a lot of responses :^P

I stand by my genetics argument. If the family physical appearance wasn't important to Martin it wouldn't be such a big reveal that Joffrey's a bastard provable by every true born Baratheon child having dark black hair. The Lannister's golden locks wouldn't be such a big deal if Martin didn't mean them to identify as Lannister. The Targaryen appearance of purple eyes and almost white platinum blonde hair. The Tully appearance of blue eyes and auburn hair. I believe they're important in how Martin communicates the character's House identity. It's not an argument I'd make in the real world but hey, this is fiction written by a man that is as susceptible to patterns as the rest of us.

I also stand by my character arguments. I will defend them if requested, or I will respond to other definitions of a Stark identity.

[Dya of Oldstones]

Arya and Jon are the only ones who has the "Stark look" and the rest of them all resemble their Tully side to some degree or another, not just Sansa. Mladen and others already pointed out better than I could about how Sansa is reconnecting with her Northern and Stark identity. I don't think she's going to be the savior of her house and family any more than the rest of her siblings. She will do her part as a one the pack.

[HexMachina]

Woah, I missed out on a lot of responses :^P

I stand by my genetics argument. If the family physical appearance wasn't important to Martin it wouldn't be such a big reveal that Joffrey's a bastard provable by every true born Baratheon child having dark black hair. The Lannister's golden locks wouldn't be such a big deal if Martin didn't mean them to identify as Lannister. The Targaryen appearance of purple eyes and almost white platinum blonde hair. The Tully appearance of blue eyes and auburn hair. I believe they're important in how Martin communicates the character's House identity. It's not an argument I'd make in the real world but hey, this is fiction written by a man that is as susceptible to patterns as the rest of us.

I also stand by my character arguments. I will defend them if requested, or I will respond to other definitions of a Stark identity.

By your definition, Bran, Sansa, Robb and Rickon are not "Starks" since they all share the Tully colouring. Baelor Breakspear was not "Targaryen" because he looked Dornish. Do you really think physical characteristics are the defining.feature of whether you "belong" to a family or not?

ETA: You also seem to think Ned's personality = all Starks ever, which is obviously not the case when you take.even a cursory look at Lyanna, Brandon and Rickard's stories....Clearly the Stark family are not defined by a single "identity" anymore than other families are.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Woah, I missed out on a lot of responses :^P

I stand by my genetics argument. If the family physical appearance wasn't important to Martin it wouldn't be such a big reveal that Joffrey's a bastard provable by every true born Baratheon child having dark black hair. The Lannister's golden locks wouldn't be such a big deal if Martin didn't mean them to identify as Lannister. The Targaryen appearance of purple eyes and almost white platinum blonde hair. The Tully appearance of blue eyes and auburn hair. I believe they're important in how Martin communicates the character's House identity. It's not an argument I'd make in the real world but hey, this is fiction written by a man that is as susceptible to patterns as the rest of us.

I also stand by my character arguments. I will defend them if requested, or I will respond to other definitions of a Stark identity.

Wait what? You mix Joffrey into this? His Lannister phenotype wasn't supposed to signify someone who's in his heart a Lannister, it was supposed to betray the fact that Robert Baratheon wasn't his biological father. And, again, if you use specifically Ned Stark's children's appearances to pin point their characters, Sansa isn't the only one favoring her mother's side, in fact, Arya is the only little Stark looking a proper Stark.

[Mladen]

Sansa is a fine character in her own right, but I would not identify her as a Stark.

Not only that in the books Sansa is a Stark but you actually say that she is not Stark while at the same time you seem unable to pinpoint what does Stark identity entails.

You say that Arya has a Stark identity to comr back and Sansa doesn't based on what? That Arya loves home and Sansa doesn't? Well, that would be wrong. There is not one chapter where Sansa isn't yearning for home. Snow castle scene is magnificent example of that. Sansa has aleays identified herself as a Stark, daughter of Ned and Catelyn. Comparison between Sansa and her parents, we actually see that Sansa is far closer to Ned than she is to practical Cat, something Arya genuinely is. You say that Nymeria has been killing Freys which is only half correct - Nymeria isn't very picky when it comes to ehom her pack will slaughter.

So, how about we clear out what Stark identity is supposed to be before we claim one or another member isn't part of it? And when we are up to that, someone please say me who is more Lannister, Cersei or Tyrion or more Tyrell, Loras or Garlan... Pointless, ah? Certainly, just ad it is pointless to actually create family identity based on preferences.