Sansa the Stark Savior? I think not.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Sansa is pretending to be Littlefinger's bastard daughter Alayne Stone. You don't get any further from a Stark identity than changing your name from Stark. Without Sansa taking pride in an identity as a Stark, or taking a more active role to protect the North I don't see how she can be some sort of Stark savior. She's hiding. All her thoughts and energies have been going along with the people around her so she can survive I guess. I don't see her doing anything savior like for the North. At best she could save sweet Robin, but I don't see that happening either.

Alayne Stone is the reason Sansa Stark is still alive and not taken prisoner by the crown. This is rather obvious - Sansa doesn't choose Alayne, Alayne is trusted upon her, as a means of safety. As late as her last chapter as Alayne, she wonders about how she must, even more, be Alayne at all times now that she is desceding the Eyrie, since there are more people at the Gates that could recognize her.

[Lee-Sensei]

But Roose's wife is dead and so is Domeric. They have no current blood ties, and Roose tells Ramsay that Lady Dustin suspects his part in Domerics death and she liked Domeric.

The difference is that holding onto a past grudge means having an unstable and hated ally to fight for. Why did Lady Dustin tell Theon to keep what she said about Ned secret even though A) she knows that Theon cannot possibly do that and B )why keep that away from Bolton? She sees that Iron swords are missing. She's pieced together that Bran and Rickon are alive, or Manderly's told her and she just confirmed it. She knows that no one will ever bow to a Bolton if there is a Stark heir that is free. Does she want to throw in her lot with the two houses who killed her own bannermen, especially it's likely they can't win that war? Be on the losing side just cause of a past grudge with a dead man, when the Boltons and Freys themselves have done you wrong? And Ramsay squanders your food and runs wild?

I don't think so.

The Boltons are in the same class of constantly disconted second-biggest fish in the pond: Florents, Reynes, Yronwoods. The Westerlands currently don't have a house like that cause they killed both of them (Reyne and Tarbeck) If you wanted to count the last 50 years, you could say that both the Westerlands and the North has seen a major revolt.

Go back a hundred, and you have the Skagosi rebelling once (again, they likely have ties to blood magic)

Go back a thousand, and you have no information about the Westerlands but we know that another cadet branch of the Starks revolted with the Boltons, the last true war the Boltons waged on their overlords, as of right now they've really only fought a coup. The Greystarks were exterminated for their rebellion, but Bolton somehow survived. (I'm guessing through Bolt-On)

1) That may be true, but they're still in-laws.

2) We aren't going to agree on this, but at the very least you have to admit that she doesn't like the Starks.

3) I wasn't counting the last 50 years. The fact that we'd have to go back that far to find disloyal bannermen is telling.

4) I wasn't counting 100 or 1000

years ago. We're talking about the present.

The North is the only geographic area we're constantly told is loyal to the Starks. Whether or not you believe the North is loyal is up to you, but it's included for Stark identity and any kind of Stark Savior.

Sansa is pretending to be Littlefinger's bastard daughter Alayne Stone. You don't get any further from a Stark identity than changing your name from Stark. Without Sansa taking pride in an identity as a Stark, or taking a more active role to protect the North I don't see how she can be some sort of Stark savior. She's hiding. All her thoughts and energies have been going along with the people around her so she can survive I guess. I don't see her doing anything savior like for the North. At best she could save sweet Robin, but I don't see that happening either.

Except we've seen that all of the North's bannermen aren't loyal. 4 Major Houses have proven to be disloyal. There's no evidence that they're any more loyal than the Iron Islands Houses, Riverlands Houses, Vale Houses, Westerlands Houses or Dornish House are to their overlords.

What name does Arya go by these days?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

What name does Arya go by these days?

No one Stark, apparently.

[Le Cygne]

She was married under duress, and it was never consummated, and since then her husband has been convicted and sentenced to die for king and kinslaying. They'll find a way to annul it, I'm guessing.

Robb was just going to chop off his head.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Is it that unreasonable to state a character that changes their name is losing their identity? Arya, Sansa, Theon, Catelyn... People keep pointing to Arya as a counterpoint like she's a shining example of personal identity. We all know that's not true.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

It's beyond ludicrous to maintain that Sansa is less "Stark" than her siblings. She shares the same parents (and presumably DNA) with her siblings, she was raised by them in the same household. She's just as much a Stark as her brothers and sister. She's just as much a member of the same family.

I repeat: beyond ludicrous.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

The North is the only geographic area we're constantly told is loyal to the Starks. Whether or not you believe the North is loyal is up to you, but it's included for Stark identity and any kind of Stark Savior.

Sansa is pretending to be Littlefinger's bastard daughter Alayne Stone. You don't get any further from a Stark identity than changing your name from Stark.

Pretending - your own choice of words. People sometimes do that. Tyrion for a period of time hid under the name Hugor Hill, still was - is - fully a Lannister. Aegon V was no less of a dragon, when in his youth he pretended to be a lowborn squire named Egg. As for the Starks, Arya might be saying aloud that she's "no one", but that's not where her heart is, she is still Arya Stark of Winterfell. By the same token, Sansa is currently bearing name Alayne, but it doesn't mean that's who she is. Your argument is quite weak.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

1) That may be true, but they're still in-laws.

2) We aren't going to agree on this, but at the very least you have to admit that she doesn't like the Starks.

3) I wasn't counting the last 50 years. The fact that we'd have to go back that far to find disloyal bannermen is telling.

4) I wasn't counting 100 or 1000

years ago. We're talking about the present.

Except we've seen that all of the North's bannermen aren't loyal. 4 Major Houses have proven to be disloyal. There's no evidence that they're any more loyal than the Iron Islands Houses, Riverlands Houses, Vale Houses, Westerlands Houses or Dornish House are to their overlords.

What name does Arya go by these days?

Arya is what the Mountain Clans are betting on, especially considering its each march off to war or die.

GRRM hasn't filled out the Westerlands history, so in the last fifty years, the West and North has each seen their major bannermen rebel. It really about evens out.

For the Ryswells and Dustin's, Arya's a captive out of their reach.

And think about it: when have you every been that friendly with your in-laws? For the purposes of Westeros, in-laws mean nothing if there's no current blood relation. So if Fat Walda had a kid, then the Freys would help roose to help thier own blood. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. I mean, fuck, who even speaks to their ex-in-laws?

Seriously, when shit hits the fan, Lady Dustin and the Ryswells have zero reason to stick with Bolton, because declaring for Bolton was a convenience in the first place. The Starks were dead with no heirs, and only Barbary has a real axe to grind with: with a Stark whose already dead, and meanwhile she's made it clear she hates Ramsay's guts for wasting her food stores and being a general pscyopath. A living psycopath who can cause problems in the now. Barabary seems to be a women who is quite rational. If Manderly's told her that there are free male heirs alive, then that's a dealmaker. And that appeas to be what that whole trip to the Crypts was about. Taking Theon with her and babbling about how much she hates Ned was cover.

She's going to betray Bolton, especially once the Freys fall through the ice in the trap that Stannis has set for them. Roose and Ramsay killed her men. She strongly believes Ramsay killed Domeric, her own close blood relation (nephew was it?) Ramsay insulted her and wasted precious food. All the other Stark houses will flock to Bran and Rickon. She will join them as easily as she declared for Bolton after the RW.

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

Bran, Robb, and Rickon all have Tully appearance and that is a knock against them for Stark appearance. Bran had an intense love of riding and has dedicated himself to the Old Gods. Robb rose the Stark banners to try and save his family. Rickon still has his direwolf. They all keep their name. They are all have more Stark identity than Sansa.

Lyanna was a fierce competitor who (in all likelyhood) joined the Tourney of Joy in secret. Fought off bullies, loved to ride on a horse, protected Stark bannerman, and happened to fall in love. If you want to draw a parallel with Arya she could fall in love. If you want to take the Sansa parallel with Lyanna to its conclusion she ends up pregnant with someone's son and makes her brother swear a secret oath to conceal the paternity of the child. It's absurd. Either the parallel leads to craziness or it's so loose as to mean nothing. Lyanna is her own character with a lot of Stark qualities, none of which are reflected by Sansa. Note: I don't consider falling in love and getting your brothers killed a reflection of Stark identity.

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell"

"The North remembers"

You named 4/60 Northern Houses. There is still House Ashwood, House Blackmyre, House Boggs, House Boles, House Branch... House Glover, House Harclay, House Hornwood... House Manderly, House Marsh, House Mollen, House Mormont... House Poole, House Reed, at least half of House Umber...

Do you really think the North in general are as disloyal as the Westerlands and the Lannisters? The entire Westerlands would rise up for a little bit of gold, and they'd oust the Lannisters the second they don't have any money. Meanwhile we had House Reyne and House Westerling and the Lannisters themselves with treachery and uprisings.

Lyanna and Sansa are far more different than they are similar.

Sansa informing Cersei that her family was leaving King's Landing is the most active thing Sansa has done besides refusing to kneel so Tyrion could put his wedding cloak over her shoulders...

Ned and Robert had hopes of marrying Joffrey and Sansa. It was encouraged until Robert was killed. Ned put the breaks on when he learned Joffrey was a Lannister bastard and his mother was seizing the throne. Sansa rejected her father and fled into the arms of Cersei, thus having her father killed.

Lyanna is an amalgam of Sansa and Arya. I don't see why that's so hard to believe. You seem to be locked in to the view that Sansa is exactly the same girl as she was in AGOT, when the truth is, she's far from that now. She's become rather clever and she is tough in her own way, just like Lyanna. They both had the romanticism streak in them, whether you like it or not. On the outside Arya and Lyanna might have more similarities, but inside, where Lyanna and Sansa are both romantic at heart and very tough at the same time, Sansa is more like Lyanna.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Lyanna is an amalgam of Sansa and Arya. I don't see why that's so hard to believe. You seem to be locked in to the view that Sansa is exactly the same girl as she was in AGOT, when the truth is, she's far from that now. She's become rather clever and she is tough in her own way, just like Lyanna. They both had the romanticism streak in them, whether you like it or not. On the outside Arya and Lyanna might have more similarities, but inside, where Lyanna and Sansa are both romantic at heart and very tough at the same time, Sansa is more like Lyanna.

Sansa being tough in her own way is nothing like Lyanna. I have to put my foot down on this people. Appreciate Sansa for being Sansa. Sansa is not Lyanna because she fell in love with a prince. Sansa didn't even fall in love. If anything her story is about rejecting romanticism and loving people for their own behavior instead of falling in love to fall in love. We barely know anything about Lyanna Stark. All we know is a few clips and memories of what people remember her as and what we want to believe will be important to the story R+L=J

Pretending - your own choice of words. People sometimes do that. Tyrion for a period of time hid under the name Hugor Hill, still was - is - fully a Lannister. Aegon V was no less of a dragon, when in his youth he pretended to be a lowborn squire named Egg. As for the Starks, Arya might be saying aloud that she's "no one", but that's not where her heart is, she is still Arya Stark of Winterfell. By the same token, Sansa is currently bearing name Alayne, but it doesn't mean that's who she is. Your argument is quite weak.

Look, I take family identity with these fictional characters to be more than just the surname they were born with and who their parents are. If there's going to be so much emphasis on family houses and what they're like and what they stand for then I might as well apply them to the characters.

I also have to believe the author has good reason to change characters names in the actual chapter headings other than just to confuse the everloving peanuts out of his beloved readers. I choose to believe it represents the character losing their personal and family identities.

Tyrion Lannister/Hugor Hill: Tyrion is fleeing King's Landing and finding a new identity. Once he's accepted as Tyrion Lannister and no one kills him, he sort of comes back to his personal identity. Aegon/Young Griff: Young Griff finds that Tyrion isn't going to kill him for being Aegon Targaryen(?) and can present that persona.Yadda yadda Catelyn/Stoneheart yadda yadda Arya and her half dozen identities -- all identity crises and rejection of their personal houses. It's that simple.

Sansa is rejecting the Sansa Stark character by embracing her Alayne Stone character. She's staying alive, she's advancing the game, what have you -- She's still afraid to use her identity as a Stark and that puts her far away from being a Stark savior.

Even if "Alayne Stone" has learned something about politics from King's Landing, how is she going to use that to save anyone? What is she going to do in the upcoming novel? There's supposed to be something "controversial" so it'll have to be something surprising and creative and fall in her lap because her current character arch just hasn't shown her to be willing to take action.

[Lee-Sensei]

Arya is what the Mountain Clans are betting on, especially considering its each march off to war or die.

GRRM hasn't filled out the Westerlands history, so in the last fifty years, the West and North has each seen their major bannermen rebel. It really about evens out.

For the Ryswells and Dustin's, Arya's a captive out of their reach.

And think about it: when have you every been that friendly with your in-laws? For the purposes of Westeros, in-laws mean nothing if there's no current blood relation. So if Fat Walda had a kid, then the Freys would help roose to help thier own blood. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. I mean, fuck, who even speaks to their ex-in-laws?

Seriously, when shit hits the fan, Lady Dustin and the Ryswells have zero reason to stick with Bolton, because declaring for Bolton was a convenience in the first place. The Starks were dead with no heirs, and only Barbary has a real axe to grind with: with a Stark whose already dead, and meanwhile she's made it clear she hates Ramsay's guts for wasting her food stores and being a general pscyopath. A living psycopath who can cause problems in the now. Barabary seems to be a women who is quite rational. If Manderly's told her that there are free male heirs alive, then that's a dealmaker. And that appeas to be what that whole trip to the Crypts was about. Taking Theon with her and babbling about how much she hates Ned was cover.

She's going to betray Bolton, especially once the Freys fall through the ice in the trap that Stannis has set for them. Roose and Ramsay killed her men. She strongly believes Ramsay killed Domeric, her own close blood relation (nephew was it?) Ramsay insulted her and wasted precious food. All the other Stark houses will flock to Bran and Rickon. She will join them as easily as she declared for Bolton after the RW.

1) I never said other wise.

2) If you have to back half a century for this, then sure. The point is that there's no proof that the Northerners are more loyal than then southerners.

3) I'm not even touching this one. There's no proof that they're loyal Starks.

4) All of the time. My In-Laws are my family. The Bolton's, Ryswells and Dustins are relatives. The Starks are what to them, again? The Starks have no familial ties with those Houses. Someone doesn't actually become an ex-in-Law unless theirs a divorce.

5) In your opinion. There's no proof of it. It's a bit strange that you're pointing out that the Ryswells and Dustins have no reason to be loyal to Roose despite their familial ties, and yet they'd be loyal to the Starks. If they go against Roose, I doubt it'll be out of loyalty to the Starks anyways.

6) Let's agree to disagree, because until I se some proof of it, I won't believe it.

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

Sansa being tough in her own way is nothing like Lyanna. I have to put my foot down on this people. Appreciate Sansa for being Sansa. Sansa is not Lyanna because she fell in love with a prince. Sansa didn't even fall in love. If anything her story is about rejecting romanticism and loving people for their own behavior instead of falling in love to fall in love. We barely know anything about Lyanna Stark. All we know is a few clips and memories of what people remember her as and what we want to believe will be important to the story R+L=J

Look, I take family identity with these fictional characters to be more than just the surname they were born with and who their parents are. If there's going to be so much emphasis on family houses and what they're like and what they stand for then I might as well apply them to the characters.

I also have to believe the author has good reason to change characters names in the actual chapter headings other than just to confuse the everloving peanuts out of his beloved readers. I choose to believe it represents the character losing their personal and family identities.

Tyrion Lannister/Hugor Hill: Tyrion is fleeing King's Landing and finding a new identity. Once he's accepted as Tyrion Lannister and no one kills him, he sort of comes back to his personal identity. Aegon/Young Griff: Young Griff finds that Tyrion isn't going to kill him for being Aegon Targaryen(?) and can present that persona.Yadda yadda Catelyn/Stoneheart yadda yadda Arya and her half dozen identities -- all identity crises and rejection of their personal houses. It's that simple.

Sansa is rejecting the Sansa Stark character by embracing her Alayne Stone character. She's staying alive, she's advancing the game, what have you -- She's still afraid to use her identity as a Stark and that puts her far away from being a Stark savior.

Even if "Alayne Stone" has learned something about politics from King's Landing, how is she going to use that to save anyone? What is she going to do in the upcoming novel? There's supposed to be something "controversial" so it'll have to be something surprising and creative and fall in her lap because her current character arch just hasn't shown her to be willing to take action.

I'm just going to drop the Lyanna/Sansa argument, as it's getting us too far off topic.

I don't think it's too far fetched to suggest that the lords of the Vale - particularly Bronze Yohn Royce - would rally behind Sansa in the event of Littlefinger's death/Sansa officially outing herself. With the power of the Vale behind her, and maybe even the Riverlands (she's as much a Tully as she is a Stark, after all), she could conceivably take Winterfell, and Stannis would most likely yield the castle to her.

[Luddsthirdmorph]

There must always be a Stark at Winterfell is the key line that dominates the Stark fortunes.

Sansa is NOT a Stark. She is now a Lannister and if she marries anyone and has legitimate heirs they will NOT be Starks

Now GRRM is a very smart guy and I am pretty sure he has a basic grasp of genetics. The WHOLE story relies on the importance of "blood" in the rise of magic which in modern speak means genetic code.

There are only two ways that someone can still be a Stark generation after generation.

Method 1. The Stark gene is carried in the MALE line father to son. It can never, ever be passed to girls. Today ALL males can trace their paternal ancestor right back to caveman time because the genes on the Y chromosome are passed on male to male. There are known mutations such that all males today can trace their original ancestry (male line) via all the known mutations that occurred in that male line right back to caveman times. So if Starkness is a male characteristic then neither Sansa NOR Arya are Starks and can meet the Stark test. Jon may or may not be a Stark, depending on his real parents.

Method 2. Starkness is transmitted via the FEMALE line -mother to child - male or female. This is the case with our own mitochondrial DNA which just like the y chromosome is passed directly, mostly unaltered and never diluted, mother to child. Therefore today we can all trace our original maternal ancestor also back to caveman times. Now such Matrilineal systems do exist and were common in the Celtic world, on which the North is largely based. GRRM would certainly have known this. Now of course under this system Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are not Starks either and only Jon may be a true Stark.

Now scientifically only these two forms of transmission of "starkness" are worth a whisker of consideration. With ALL other genetic material, no person could be much more than a fraction of the original Stark, given that each time someone marries anyone other than a cousin or sibling the "Stark" is dilutes 50%. Other than the male chromosome, Starks are unlikely to have ANY of the original Stark about them. After 8000 years the descendents of the Starks have about 1/quintillian chance (British system 95 decimal places) of having a single original stark autosomal chromosome (excluding the MALE Y). It is for this REASON that Targs marry their siblings. The only way to avoid this dilution is to marry siblings or cousins.

So what does this mean for the actual story. It means that if Method 1 is the form of genetic transmission of starkness then Sansa can NEVER be the Stark of Winterfell. It also implies that if the Bael the Bard story has any truth, Bael was also a Stark, albeit perhaps a from a bastard Stark line that crossed the wall possible thousands of years previously. The MALE gene continues father to son unchanged.

If method 2 applies then Ned MAY BE a true stark because his mother was a Stark and perhaps her mother was before her. The only way that Sansa OR Bran could be Starks in this case would be if somehow Catelyn' grandmother's grandmother's grandmother (times about 5) was a Stark.

Frankly I would be fairly annoyed if GRRM allowed Arya or Sansa to be "the Stark" of Winterfell because of it implausibility.

Now my off shoot idea is that being a Stark is transmitted via the male only line father to son directly. BUT King of Winter, the older and more ancient idea is passed mother to son, and then mother to daughter. Thus it is possible that Bran is the Stark of Winterfell while Jon is the king of Winter via his mother, assuming she is Lyanna. Ned (whose mother was a Stark) may also have been King of Winter AND the Stark of Winterfell. The KoW before Ned would have been is mother's brother, whoever that may be.

[Red Wedding Cake]

I don't think it's too far fetched to suggest that the lords of the Vale - particularly Bronze Yohn Royce - would rally behind Sansa in the event of Littlefinger's death/Sansa officially outing herself. With the power of the Vale behind her, and maybe even the Riverlands (she's as much a Tully as she is a Stark, after all), she could conceivably take Winterfell, and Stannis would most likely yield the castle to her.

Okay. Now, I find it difficult to see Sansa wielding an army because she has no training in it and she hasn't shown any ability to command the soldiers. It doesn't come easy. Robb had to prove himself to his bannerman, standing up to their snears and demanding they fulfill their oaths. Jon had to prove himself to the Night's Watch and to Stannis, rightfully disagreeing on tactics half a dozen times. Asha laughs at Theon trying to command his men while she earned the right to command them through their respect. It takes more than just a strong name to be a strong military leader. I also find it doubtful a military leader would stand up to command for her since the Vale has been so dedicated to remaining neutral. If Stannis takes Winterfell he will have to sit in it until the storm rolls over and coordinate his next attack. Probably involving the Northerners, who only know of Rickon Stark and Jon Snow (?) being alive. If she were to redeclare herself Sansa Stark the Northerners would have to find out and most likely investigate, assuming they find out that Jeyne Poole is not Arya Stark and they overthrow Ramsey/Roose Bolton.

[Mladen]

Sansa is NOT a Stark. She is now a Lannister and if she marries anyone and has legitimate heirs they will NOT be Starks

Again, people need to find me some actual quote where they found "Sansa Lannister" being used or any actual proof that author or anyone in-universe consider Sansa a Lannister. From her name not being listed in House Lannister to the undeniable fact that "Sansa Lannister" is a coin of the FANS, not something you can find in the books. On other hand, I can easily quote numerous occasions after Sansa's marriage when she is named a Stark. So, to argue that she is a Lannister is to actually go where author never did. Because no one can say that Sansa is a Lannister based on what is in the books.

I am sorry, but the rest of the post is generally some genetic rant that is out of place for this series. Simply put, there is bo "Starkness gene" some people think runs in Stark gene pool. More fhan that, people seem generally unable to define what Starkness/Northerness is and as such, I tend to reject the notion of someone not being it.

[Mladen]

This, and basically everything Mladen has said on this and other threads about the Stark girls. She says it far better than I ever could. Ridiculous to think that Sansa is not a real Stark... any more than people thinking Ghost isn't a real Direwolf.

Thank you so much... Just to add that Mladen is not a lady... He is well, HE :).

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Thank you so much... Just to add that Mladen is not a lady... He is well, HE :).

:eek: So very sorry! Won't make that mistake again.

(But yes, I genuinely enjoy your posts!)

[GinesthoiOfIce]

"It is not safe to be a Stark just now" (said by Littlefinger, ASOS p.932, just before he tells her she needs to become Alayne Stone). Making an argument about Sansa not being a Stark because she conceals her identity right now is just ridiculous since all of her other siblings have had to conceal their identities too throughout the novel (Apart from Robb of course). Making another argument about her being a Lannister is even more so as she does not call herself a Lannister : it is not like Catelyn's case where she feels and is both Tully and Stark. Sansa is Stark and Tully, but is asserting herself more and more as a Stark. Neither in self-identification nor in personality can someone find her to be a Lannister.

I've said it in other threads, I'll say it here : Rickon's importance will rely in him being the one to continue the Stark line. He'll probably marry into some Northern family and have offspring while his siblings will rule (Bran and Sansa would be a perfect association...). The other Stark siblings will contribute to the maintaining of the Stark rulership.

The real question would be : Which Stark will be the first to create a Stark hold that is safe for them and for their siblings to come to (= Well protected with loyalists to their cause) : Sansa and Rickon are, so far the most likely to have a hold on some place from which to start a reconquering of the North.

[Mithras]

Just because shes a girl, doesn't mean she cant continue the line. same happenned with bael the bard and the winter rose. Also, that marriage was a sham.

Bael the Bard's story is full of BS and that one (fathering the next Stark Lord) is one of them.

I don't think Sansa will rebuild Winterfell because it will be Bran's job. That "snowy Winterfell" is the her false life that she is currently building with the help of LF and she will be awakened from that lie by a rape attempt of LF.

[Mithras]

In Dorne there have been female heads of House Martell and their husbands took the female's name in those cases. So there is a precedent for it.

Dornish Laws apply in Dorne.