Is pick up artistry creating sociopaths?

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I hate that Cracked article. Always have.

Does it generalize too much for your taste? That's my criticism of it.

[orabella]

Like someone said several pages back, since females are selective (just like men are) it's not as easy as you think for a single woman to walk out the door and get laid. This power that some imagine we have just doesn't exist. We still have to impress the objects of our desires, too.

I suppose if we had zero preference then sure we can get laid 25 times a day- but .. eww.

We, too, have to differentiate ourselves from our competition. This isn't exclusive to males. There's truly no unfairness going on here.. lol

[Lily Valley]

Well of course not, that's not what I'm saying at all. That doesn't make a female picky, that just makes her smart. Women DO have criteria for choosing a partner. And they should. They are more likely to be strict to that criteria than men though precisely BECAUSE sex is more available to them. A male is more likely to be choosing who he pursues based on who he finds visually appealing, but is also often likely to lessen those standards in order to obtain sex, because sex is going to be more scarce for him. For a woman, so long as she is moderately attractive, she can be more selective because there are more suitors available. Just go out and watch at any club on a saturday night. The men are strutting their stuff and hollering at the women, but if it doesn't work they will move on to another. The women are the ones saying yay or nay. The men also usually far outnumber the women, which doesn't hurt. The females have more options to choose from and their options come to them rather than the other way around. Females also judge on more than just visual aesthetics. A female can look good and talk very little and she can still bring home her pick of several males. Males on the other hand are not just judged on how they look physically, but how they converse, how they act...is he confident, is he strong with his words? Is he funny? Is he mature, smart, intellectual? Does he have a good job? Whether or not you want to believe it, there is a lot more strategy involved for a male trying to hook up a female. Because well, she doesn't need sex...she can get it easily. She has to be convinced it is worth her time. So men have to strategize how to elevate themselves above other men, and some men who are clueless or insecure will fall prey to PUA sites.

Gla, I don't want to derail from the fascinating analysis on Aladdin that has been taking place (ok, I do).

Women lower their standards too. Some people's standards include certain personality traits and any of a dozen things outside of physical appearance. Studies have shown that men are more responsive to physical beauty, but if men wanted to be free of the "gatekeeping women" who are simply making their selection based on their own preferences, they could pop a viagra and take one of the ladies mentioned here:

Also, when the female reaches a certain age, she will wander off into the lands beyond the sun to rest among the bones of her kin.

to a nice dark room. That would certainly "increase the overall number of heterosexual pairings".

Sound unappealing? So does hooking up with a man I don't find attractive. I'd rather go home and toss one off. I imagine you would too.

Don't even get me started on that ridiculous crack about libido mismatch between genders. That's a Victorian holdover and a myth.

I will cede you that courting behavior tends to be different between men and women. If we're talking about a bar on a Friday, men are more likely to make the approach. The exception being the women who are trying to pick up the staff and ignoring all the patrons completely.

[Shryke]

Kinda. he is still lying about it and then lies again.

You're also forgetting that Aladdin, in order to impress the woman, decides that major theft is the only way to go about it. Along with lying and almost destroying the kingdom because he lied. Ultimately all of that is okay by the storyline because Jasmine thought he was hot in the first place.

Except she's not falling in love with him over the time he lying about (she likes him before he starts lying and sees through his lies) and the film constantly paints his lying as bad.

The rest of your pay doesn't even make sense. He commits no make thefts and his lying is not the source of any problems for the kingdom. You are taking about a completely different film not made by Disney.

The film has 2 main plots:

- Jafar trying to use magic to rule the world (your standard adventure story plot)

- Aladdin learning to just be himself because that's a better person then the stuck-up prince he pretending to be and that's the person Jasmine actually likes

It's literally saying the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

[TerraPrime]

Why is my complaining somehow diminished? This entire thread has been near nonstop complaining. Why can't it be about offering alternative help?

It surely can be if you help make it so. But you only asked for resources and provided none, then went on to castigate others for not helping find resources. The ball is in your court if you want this to be a medium to find helpful resources to compete with the PUA philosophy.

[orabella]

To be fair, I don't want anyone randomly asking me if I'd be okay with sex, especially if I don't really know them well. I'm likely to respond in a cruel way.

See there? And I'm sure there are many men just like that. And I'm sure women would like to hit on you and those many other men, as well. Meaning.. women can't just walk up to any man in the world and ask for sex. Especially if we want men of quality.

And of course a lot of women of quality expect the same respect in conversations.

I feel like PUA's aren't grasping that concept. lol

[TrueMetis]

Except she's not falling in love with him over the time he lying about (she likes him before he starts lying and sees through his lies) and the film constantly paints his lying as bad.

The rest of your pay doesn't even make sense. He commits no make thefts and his lying is not the source of any problems for the kingdom. You are taking about a completely different film not made by Disney.

The film has 2 main plots:

- Jafar trying to use magic to rule the world (your standard adventure story plot)

- Aladdin learning to just be himself because that's a better person then the stuck-up prince he pretending to be and that's the person Jasmine actually likes

It's literally saying the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

I can't remember does Aladdin know that Jafar was the one trying to get the lamp?

[Pecan]

If these two sites are the best help out there for people not good at attracting relationships and sexual partners then perhaps there needs to be an effort to provide a better form of help for people that want it.

There are hundreds of blogs and forums out there giving out various types of advice. Roosh is popular because his writing is more edgy and extreme and misogynistic than most, and it appeals to a certain type of guy that's very frustrated and would rather talk shit on the internet than actually take action to improve his situation.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

See there? And I'm sure there are many men just like that. And I'm sure women would like to hit on you and those many other men, as well. Meaning.. women can't just walk up to any man in the world and ask for sex. Especially if we want men of quality.

And of course a lot of women of quality expect the same respect in conversations.

I feel like PUA's aren't grasping that concept. lol

Of course. But it's also funny that the way in which most of us wouldn't tolerate being approached for sex is almost always the only option we have for a date. Sure, I can't just abruptly ask to fuck, but I can ask a woman on a date I've only known 10 minutes. Dating. It's complex.

[orabella]

Of course. But it's also funny that the way in which most of us wouldn't tolerate being approached for sex is almost always the only option we have for a date. Sure, I can't just abruptly ask to fuck, but I can ask a woman on a date I've only known 10 minutes. Dating. It's complex.

lol well it's just a decency thing, I think. If someone you've known ten minutes agrees to go on that date with you- it's an unspoken given that they can see themselves getting naked with you *if all goes well.* So it's one foot in the door really.

[Stannisaurus2]

women can't just walk up to any man in the world and ask for sex. Especially if we want men of quality.

Well, in the western world yeah they can, especially in a bar or a similar place. If you don't because you want to check a man's quality first that's another story.

[orabella]

Well, in the western world yeah they can, especially in a bar or a similar place. If you don't because you want to check a man's quality first that's another story.

But that is my point. Women typically do like to see that they can spend an hour or two with the person without wanting to rip their throat out before we pull our skirts up.

Since women want that.. we have no tip of power in our direction when it comes to sexual encounters.

[Kalbear]

Shameful norms or no, most women would call someone with such a direct approach an asshole or a harasser (except with guys they actually want to sleep with).

Depends on the woman - and again, societal norms. It's expected now that women should call that person an asshole or harasser because the norm for men is to be indirect and try to woo via a lot of innuendo.

At the same time, there is such a thing as a booty call. And It works for both men and women.

There is nothing that is fundamental about people asking to fuck and then fucking being wrong (presuming that things are Safe, Sane and Consensual). That it is considered rude is not because women are from venus. It's because things like Cosmo say that women shouldn't do that and men doing that are creeps. It's because things like PUA say that this is how you should approach women. It's because things like the Rules say that this is how you should be approached. It's just a cultural norm. It can be changed.

The rest of your pay doesn't even make sense. He commits no make thefts and his lying is not the source of any problems for the kingdom. You are taking about a completely different film not made by Disney.

What? He is supposed to steal the lamp for Jafar. He tries. He fails. Then he gets away with it. Aladdin reveals that it was Jafar who tried to get Jafar to marry Jasmine (and kill Aladdin) but his lamp gives Jafar the power he needs to take over the kingdom. How does Aladdin stealing the lamp not end up causing the kingdom to almost fall?

[Stannisaurus2]

But that is my point. Women typically do like to see that they can spend an hour or two with the person without wanting to rip their throat out before we pull our skirts up.

Since women want that.. we have no tip of power in our direction when it comes to sexual encounters.

But the fact that we usually end-up doing what a woman prefers (rather than what a man would prefer) is that power in practice.

[denstorebog]

I'm this close to starting a "How did Jafar rise to power" thread.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

lol well it's just a decency thing, I think. If someone you've known ten minutes agrees to go on that date with you- it's an unspoken given that they can see themselves getting naked with you *if all goes well.* So it's one foot in the door really.

the decency thing hits the nail on the head for the core differences in online vs offline dating. When your dating offline, you have to follow rules of courtesy such as:

- don't get caught looking at boobs/abs

- be able to converse on the spot

- smile

- be engaging

- don't show off putting body language

- show interest in the conversation

And those are just things off the top of my head. None of those rules are set in stone with online dating, say for being engaging, which is the mist important thing in online dating.

[maarsen]

But the fact that we usually end-up doing what a woman prefers (rather than what a man would prefer) is that power in practice.

Going back 30+ years. First date with the woman I married. I took her to watch A Clockwork Orange. She still talks about what a terrible first date that was.

[eyenon15]

It surely can be if you help make it so. But you only asked for resources and provided none, then went on to castigate others for not helping find resources. The ball is in your court if you want this to be a medium to find helpful resources to compete with the PUA philosophy.

Yeh, I asked because I don't know any.

Thankfully, I've never had to search for advice on these type of things(although good advice never hurts)

I didn't castigate anyone.

Shit, if it's up to me to fix it then it's not that big of a deal to me personally. The people on those sites aren't personally bothering me.

But if they really are a danger and comparable to the KKK I'd expect not to be castigated for asking about alternative aid to those who may or may not want it.

If they are that dangerous I'm certainly not going to go at it alone.

And Yes, people did offer alternative help after I asked for it, good job to them and thanks to them as well.

[Stannisaurus2]

There is nothing that is fundamental about people asking to fuck and then fucking being wrong (presuming that things are Safe, Sane and Consensual). That it is considered rude is not because women are from venus. It's because things like Cosmo say that women shouldn't do that and men doing that are creeps. It's because things like PUA say that this is how you should approach women. It's because things like the Rules say that this is how you should be approached. It's just a cultural norm. It can be changed.

You completely remove the agency of women in order to absolve them of any "responsibility" (lack of a better word) for what you consider wrong (or a societal believe anyway) and blame it on society, yet you have no problem holding PUAs responsible for their own contribution to the same result.

Either both men and women are a product of their environment or they are both equally responsible. You can't have it both ways

(Obviously I recognize that what PUAs are doing is douchbaggery, I am not saying that both groups should be considered "just as bad", just that both groups should be held accountable for whatever contribution they are making to the belief that direct sex should not be asked, - that is if we accept that the belief is fundamentally wrong that people should be held responsible for it, I don't)

[Larry of the Lawn]

Doesn't Alladin make the direct "lets Fuck approach"? I heard that if you listen carefully to Prince Ali when he shows up in the flying carpet that he blurts out "take off your clothes" after being startled by her giant tiger.