Is pick up artistry creating sociopaths?

[Pecan]

Take it from a guy who has been around. That PUA stuff is bullshit. The men that are targeted for this stuff are just as lonely and needy as the women it is aimed at. Grow a pair of balls, treat women as you want to be treated, nicely for the completely clueless, and learn to enjoy the art of conversation. Believe me, the people you want to impress with how many women you can sleep with are not the kind of people who you want to hang around with. That is the ultimate mark of a loser.

Yes, this is correct.

As I said in my earlier post, there's a ton of marketing of this material to lonely guys and it's the nature of that marketing that has created a lot of the hype and scandal around it. The truth is that there are very, very few guys out there that pursue this stuff that are able to implement more than the very basics, i.e. learning how to have a basic conversation, getting some nice clothes and a better haircut, approaching a few women and building up some confidence. But, for a lot of guys, those basics are pretty helpful. It gets you out there and out of your shell.

Where things get crazy is with the marketing of all of the learning materials and seminars and bootcamps. That shit is pretty much just a money grab. It's not that the material is wrong exactly. It CAN work. But it very rarely does because most guys simply can't own it.

Regarding Roosh, the guy is basically a comedian. He takes an extreme point of view because that's how he gets readership on his blog and how he gets guys to buy his ebooks, which is how he supports himself and pays his travel expenses. Think Howard Stern.

[karaddin]

Wasn't that spree-killer a frequenter of PUAhate?

That's how I remember it yeah.

[orabella]

I got sucked in too

morbid curiosity

absolutely fucking horrible but on the + side im convinced most of these assholes are insecure as hell, trolls and not actually getting any dates...I have to think that...for my sanity.

No darling. There is no way these boys are getting dates. Yckkkk. I can picture the exact type they look like. The "tryer-too-hards" with their "desperation cloaked in an I wanna be badass so I'm pretending to be someone who I think is badass but everyone can see I'm just a friggin piece of crapola" persona. eeeeuhkkk!!

They think male dominance means disrespect of females. They do get one point right- some women, including myself DO go for dominant men, but us gals who like that certainly don't want jerks/poser/ disrespectful douches hiding behind a dominant label.

Sigh.. I feel like I've been too nice on my description here. Next time I'll tell you how I really feel about these little boys. :ack:

[deleted01]

That's how I remember it yeah.

Yeah. I read his entire manifesto. My morbid curiosity really bites me on the arse sometimes. This stuff makes me sick. If these PUA's are the "nice guys", then I bloody give up.

[brook]

If these PUA's are the "nice guys", then I bloody give up.

It's funny isn't it? Of all the really amazing guys I have met not one of them has ever felt the need to proclaim how 'nice' they are. It's like they think being decent human beings instead of abusive jerks isn't actually something that needs to be mentioned...

[Littlefingers In The Air]

You know what worked for me when I was shy to to point of it being crippling? I told myself that the worst an attractive woman could do is tell me no and that being told no isn't a big deal. Once you accept that being told no isn't the end of the world, things are a lot easier. Some of us can't deal with rejection, though, and that's unfortunate. You miss out on some good relationships that way.

[SpaceChampion]

A friend of mine went to high school in Toronto with that guy Mystery, who was one of the first PUAs, and the one well known for wearing the fedora about 10-15 years ago. Here's his facebook page.

I post this only so you can see if any of your facebook friends follow him. ;-)

[Littlefingers In The Air]

It's funny isn't it? Of all the really amazing guys I have met not one of them has ever felt the need to proclaim how 'nice' they are. It's like they think being decent human beings instead of abusive jerks isn't actually something that needs to be mentioned...

Absolutely. Alternatively, I don't think I'd give the time of day to a lady who needed to remind me she's a "good woman". Around here, that term is equivalent to the nice guy thing. Why do you need to tell me you're good? Do you not think I'll pick up on that from interacting with you?

[brook]

Absolutely. Alternatively, I don't think I'd give the time of day to a lady who needed to remind me she's a "good woman". Around here, that term is equivalent to the nice guy thing. Why do you need to tell me you're good? Do you not think I'll pick up on that from interacting with you?

I've not heard that one but I agree, it sounds equally awful.

Hell what on earth would I want with a 'good' woman anyway? :p

[Pecan]

No darling. There is no way these boys are getting dates. Yckkkk. I can picture the exact type they look like. The "tryer-too-hards" with their "desperation cloaked in an I wanna be badass so I'm pretending to be someone who I think is badass but everyone can see I'm just a friggin piece of crapola" persona. eeeeuhkkk!!

They think male dominance means disrespect of females. They do get one point right- some women, including myself DO go for dominant men, but us gals who like that certainly don't want jerks/poser/ disrespectful douches hiding behind a dominant label.

Sigh.. I feel like I've been too nice on my description here. Next time I'll tell you how I really feel about these little boys. :ack:

This is kind of an interesting comment. On the one hand, nobody likes fake people/phonies - men and women included. On the other hand, the argument for learning these techniques is that women will screen for lack of confidence, non-dominance very, very quickly - like within the first microsecond of encountering a new male.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

This is kind of an interesting comment. On the one hand, nobody likes fake people/phonies - men and women included. On the other hand, the argument for learning these techniques is that women will screen for lack of confidence, non-dominance very, very quickly - like within the first microsecond of encountering a new male.

Now this here is worth opening a dialogue over. I have the tendency to fear for women who seek out a dominant man, because I know how that can manifest itself. On one hand, it could be a well adjusted male with a lot of confidence in himself, who is well spoken, quick to make decisions and speaks his mind when he feels there's something wrong.

On the other hand, I've seen it be true where a dominant man as far as the woman is concerned is someone who will "put her in her place for acting up" in a very violent way. Unfortunately, this is prominent in my family. That term really moves the needle, because you never know who means what.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LoG,

This is kind of an interesting comment. On the one hand, nobody likes fake people/phonies - men and women included. On the other hand, the argument for learning these techniques is that women will screen for lack of confidence, non-dominance very, very quickly - like within the first microsecond of encountering a new male.

Then please explain how those of us who are not "Alphas" manage to reproduce, even marry?

[Pecan]

LoG,

Then please explain how those of us who are not "Alphas" manage to reproduce, even marry?

Are you asking me to generalize across the entire demographic spectrum?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LoG,

You seem to imply that "dominance" is a pre-requiset for successful dating. Is that not the case?

[Slurms McKenzie]

Since when has it been an "art"? Its just luck isn't it?

[Slurms McKenzie]

You seem to imply that "dominance" is a pre-requiset for successful dating. Is that not the case?

Not only that but how would you even measure "alphaness"? The whole "alpha male" concept seems like balls to me

[SpaceChampion]

Then please explain how those of us who are not "Alphas" manage to reproduce, even marry?

Hooking up and long-term relationships are not at all the same....

For the purposes of these studies, they defined dominance as “forced or coerced leadership,” characterized by aggression and other domineering tactics in the pursuit of agentic self-interest. Dominance leads subordinates to submit to a dominant male via intimidation or fear. They tend to maintain greater physical distance from the dominant male and maintain less eye contact.

Conversely, prestige is defined as “freely conferred status” by peers in recognition of special abilities and skills. Peers benefit from association with skilled individuals, as it is more efficient to copy their expertise than engage in trial and error learning. The prestigious individual is honored, revered and praised by subordinates, and “respond with self-deprecation. Prestigious individuals freely offer information and counsel. Because of this free exchange of status for information, prestigious individuals may appear to be more kind, generous, and willing to help than dominant individuals.”

The research by Snyder et al revealed several key findings:

1. When given the choice between dominance and prestige, women demonstrate a clear preference for a high-prestige male over a high-dominance male.

Women prefer low-dominance males for both long-term and short-term mating, but the preference is stronger when seeking a long-term partner.

Women prefer high prestige partners over low prestige partners, and this preference is also stronger for long-term vs. short-term mating.

Women find dominant behaviors attractive in the context of athletic competition, but penalize them for both short- and long-term mating.

In this light, distinguishing between dominance and prestige is essential to enhancing our understanding of female sexuality and attraction. Overall, the research suggests that women are not attracted to disagreeable males, i.e. jerks and assholes, they’re attracted to men who earn the respect and admiration of other men, and who display kindness and generosity. The degree to which women penalize dominance vs. prestige is contextual, based on their own mating priorities, i.e. short-term vs. long-term.

It should be noted that dominance and prestige are alternate, but not entirely mutually exclusive, pathways to social status.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SC,

Where is your quote linked from?

[Pecan]

LoG,

You seem to imply that "dominance" is a pre-requiset for successful dating. Is that not the case?

It depends what you mean by "dominance". Semantics - the meaning of words - is very important in this sort of discussion because people can use the same terms but associate very different meanings to them. When one woman says she likes dominant males, that doesn't necessarily mean the same as another woman that also says she likes dominant males. At the extreme end, there are women that go for dominant, asshole-ish men and nothing else will do because that's just what they're attracted to. More commonly, women will tell you they like men that act like men, which is sort of code for a man that knows what he's about and takes the lead in a relationship. I've talked to many, many women about this, including my own mother, and this is pretty common, though perhaps not quite universal.

However, what is pretty close to a universally attractive trait is confidence. Almost any woman you talk to will tell you that a confident man is an attractive man, and that lack of confidence is an attraction killer. It doesn't matter how good looking the guy is, how much money he makes, how much he can bench press, etc., if a man doesn't have confidence in himself and his own value, that will kill any of his other attractive attributes. But, confidence in oneself isn't exactly the same thing as dominance, but they are related. A confident man isn't necessarily a dominant one because some guys just aren't like that. But, there's a spectrum and you can't really be a dominant male without having a certain level of confidence in yourself. It just doesn't work that way.

[orabella]

SpaceChampion, your last bit is pretty spot on for many people. The problem is a lot of people assume that dominance and asshole-ishness is the same exact thing- it isn't. I love alphas but don't believe for one minute being an alpha means being a jerk to chick. That's unattractive and ignorant.

Littlefingers in the air, unfortunately, it seems the women you refer to that find themselves falling for the buttholes disguised as dominant seems to be more of a poor decision making in men (especially if this is a pattern of behavior). But on the other side, anyone can be fooled once.