Do you forgive Sansa for judging Tyrion so harshly?

[hear me bore]

Right, sorry for seeing double standards in how different characters are judged for similar actions. Of course it's not relevant to bring that up, and indeed nobody has ever compared Tyrion with Lancel or other members of the Lannister family, and expressed how much better Tyrion was than these others, right? Right? Give me a break.

Oh yes, it's the Hound. You see, he also did not rape Sansa, but he did much more beyond that. Not only does he have a much lower rape count, he also has a much lower murder count, and he also has some little Stark girls succour in his record.

Again, I don't see the relevance here. If Arya had been in the same situation, and Tyrion had done all the same things for her, then we could have had this discussion, and I would still say she was wrong.

Well no one has raped Sansa. But the Hound is a swell guy, despite the occasional child killing. And yes, Tyrion never helped a Stark girl at all.

[ChillyPolly]

Doran

Sandor

Luwen

Samwell

eta JonS.

Lancel.

How could anyone leave out Lancel? He set his spoils-of-war bride completely free and wished her joy in her choice of husband. And he is exactly who Sansa would have married if Tyrion had opted out. Lancel does not merely talk the talk, he walks the walk. H

Lancel never gets any credit. People read of his encounter with Jaime and they simply accept the validity of Jaime's amoral point-of-view. For intance, Jaime comes from a multi-course meal including fish, wine, veal and mushrooms til he "cannot eat another bite" and emerges to find a few common-folk roasting their own sausages, and is filled with disdain because Lancels let them have a few sausages, while fasting himself. And readers simply accept that that's the way it should be - that Jaime is smart and Lancel is an idiot.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Um, except for marrying her against her will?

Sexually abusing her (making her undress, showing her his erect penis, groping her) on their wedding night before deciding not to go through with raping her, which she had been convinced he would do during their entire horrible ceremony?

Oh, and the title of this thread is absurd and disgusting. What, a 12-year old hostage being forced to marry someone much older so his family could steal her family's land is not perfectly nice to the man she expects will be raping her in a few hours? What a bitch! Can we ever forgive her? :rolleyes:

Man, I was about to say I was thankful for no one saying anything about the title...

I said, more than once, the title isn't the best...

Did the OP say that Sansa was an ungrateful bitch? I think Tyrion deserves his share of blame too. But his share of the blame can't be 100% of it. He was also forced to marry, mind you, and even if he wanted Winterfell, he didn't want a child bride.

[hear me bore]

The difference is they weren't hostages. They were married with consent and with the consent of their families. Ramsey's fist wedding was considered rape by Westeros standards. Even though he married no doubt terrified and screaming widow before bedding her.

Well consent is the exact thing at issue. Can you give consent when you aren't allowed to say no? For example, Lysa wouldn't be killed for saying no, but could she actually say no? I don't know.

[JoeyBanana]

Sandor? The guy who said he should have raped her, would not have raped her if legally allowed to and as an act of consummating their marriage? When Tyrion molests her, it's the end of the world, if the Hound does it, it's a sign of love. I call BS.

Oh then there's the selective arguments. I don't understand how nobody here is judging Tyrion for both, the non-raping and molesting. It is obviously disgusting that he touched her but he definitely had not yet realized how big Sansa's resentment was, or else he would not have reacted to her "what if never" like he did. He was quite clearly not expecting that. Arguing that he was fully aware of Sansa's feelings despite her comments and his shock, is dishonest.

Now does he deserve praise for not doing it? No, absolutely not. Is it something we can safely dismiss? Again, absolutely not. Tyrion knew where the line was and despite his desires and the pressure, he did not cross it. In the context of the series, i do respect that, i really do. You may not, but that is no basis for dismissing that act entirely. I know it gives you a great point by saying "he molested her!" and it sounds pretty much indefensible (well, because it is), but it's deliberately ignoring the context of the situation, that actually puts it into perspective. All in all, said perspective is barely favorable for Tyrion anway.

[Rhaegar's Lover]

Never could understand why Tyrion was offended/hurt that Sansa didnt want to sleep with him. I mean for goodness sake, no well born lady in Westeros was rushing to be his wife. Even if his family were the Lannisters and they had tons of wealth and his sister was queen. Tywin still couldnt buy him a bride!!! Tyrion has an overblown and distorted sense of self. IMHO, He is all sound and fury signifying nothing.

[Ser Eric]

Actually by pointing out that rapes are not common during wedding nights, I kinda disproved your idea of everyone in Westeros being rapists.

You have proven nothing of the sort. By definition Ned raped Catelyn and Jon raped Lysa. Ramsay raped Arya, Robert raped Cersie. Drogo raped Dany Basically every marriage in Westeros begins with a rape

[Ser Eric]

The difference is they weren't hostages. They were married with consent and with the consent of their families. Ramsey's fist wedding was considered rape by Westeros standards. Even though he married no doubt terrified and screaming widow before bedding her.

Lysa did not want to marry Jon. Catelyn did not want to marry Ned. They did it out of duty not because they wanted to. No consent=rape.

[monika]

Sandor? The guy who said he should have raped her, would not have raped her if legally allowed to and as an act of consummating their marriage? When Tyrion molests her, it's the end of the world, if the Hound does it, it's a sign of love. I call BS.

In Sandor's defense, he said those things to get Arya to kill him.

[Bustard]

I think Sansa does empathize with Tyrion, but their situation is not alike at all, and nor should ever be put as such. Tyrion marries a beautiful wife and his children might rule the North. Sansa marries the "Best" of the members of the family that actively fought her own family, damned her to pretty much Hell, beat her, humiliated her, amongst others. Tyrion himself works for House Lannister, as he had before in the books. It's at least naive to trust Tyrion at that point, and since Sansa isn't naive anymore, she doesn't. Cersei and Joffrey were nice, once.

Don't get me wrong, Sansa had it much worse than Tyrion during their marriage. I'm not saying she should have trusted him either. But why doesn't Tyrion get more credit for preserving Sansa's innocence? Sure, 'not raping a teenage girl' sets the bar pretty low when it comes to accomplishments; yet most men in identical circumstances would not have been so honorable. At the expense of his reputation, he resisted the temptations of youth&beauty that belonged to him by law.

In light of Tyrion's self-restraint, couldn't Sansa at least pretend to reciprocate his kindness? I always got the feeling his appearance had as much to do with Sansa's neglect as his last name. Her refusal to kneel at the ceremony symbolized an unwillingness to share in his humiliation, or 'stoop down to his level' in a literal sense.

Sansa doesn't owe any apologies but that doesn't mean she couldn't have handled the situation more delicately. Sometimes I feel like she can do no wrong on this forum. :dunno:

[Ser Not Appearing]

I can forgive the prig princess for everything in the series. She's young, vain, naive and incredibly street stupid. Her values are terribly placed and she pays for it asking with those around her.

I can forgive her... but only once she truly starts acting differently, as opposed to not acting out of fear.

[Mladen]

You have proven nothing of the sort. By definition Ned raped Catelyn and Jon raped Lysa. Ramsay raped Arya, Robert raped Cersie. Drogo raped Dany Basically every marriage in Westeros begins with a rape

By what we have as report of Catelyn and her wedding night, she was willing participant in what was happening that night. Cersei was willing but Robert ruined it. Marriages in Westeros don't start with rape and it is such unsupported claim. And from what we know from books, plainly false.

Lysa did not want to marry Jon. Catelyn did not want to marry Ned. They did it out of duty not because they wanted to. No consent=rape.

You do understand that although they weren't enthusiastic about the marriages, neither of the Tully daughters was actually forced on sexual intercourse. The only way the sex between Tyrion and Sansa would have happened is to actually rape her.

[Ser Eric]

By what we have as report of Catelyn and her wedding night, she was willing participant in what was happening that night. Cersei was willing but Robert ruined it. Marriages in Westeros don't start with rape and it is such unsupported claim. And from what we know from books, plainly false.

You do understand that although they weren't enthusiastic about the marriages, neither of the Tully daughters was actually forced on sexual intercourse. The only way the sex between Tyrion and Sansa would have happened is to actually rape her.

Willing=Duty, not because they wanted to. They didn't want to but were forced to due to the social constructs of Westeros.

Tyrion deserves credit because he refused to do his duty despite pressure.

[JoeyBanana]

In Sandor's defense, he said those things to get Arya to kill him.

I know and yet he still mistreated her.

The funny thing is, the argument was about Westerosi who would never rape Sansa, you know, what Tyrion did, and Sandor gets named. It's a bit weird, if you ask me. It's like adding the singer (forgot his name) and Baelish to the list.

[Mladen]

I know and yet he still molested her.

The funny thing is, the argument was about Westerosi who would never rape Sansa, you know, what Tyrion did, and Sandor gets named. It's a bit weird, if you ask me. It's like adding the singer (forgot his name) and Baelish to the list.

When did Sandor molest Sansa? And, to be clear, molesting means sexually assaulting. As I know, that has never happened. Even the Blackwater bay battle night, he actually never did anything sexually.

Tyrion deserves credit because he refused to do his duty despite pressure.

You mean, Tyrion deserves a golden star for not raping her. As I said, I haven't killed anyone today, nor raped, as for that matter. I expect Nobel prize coming soon...

[ChillyPolly]

Well consent is the exact thing at issue. Can you give consent when you aren't allowed to say no? For example, Lysa wouldn't be killed for saying no, but could she actually say no? I don't know.

The Medieval Church required consent for valid marriage, and communal witnessing was also traditional and encouraged. I assume it is the same for the Faith of the Seven, which is loosely based on the Medieval Church. Unless a father so terrorized his daughter in private that he could force her to say "I do" before the entire community (and yes, he may be able to do this if he tries hard enough), then he could not force her to marry against her will.

The Medieval Church celebrated a woman's right to serve god, and to remain chaste, even in defiance of parents. This is shown in the popular Thecla legends which go as far back as 150 A.D. Of course, she could often change her mind, and decide to get married later (perhaps when a better option arrived). The practical result was that Christian girls started marrying at much later ages than Pagan girls. By the Middle Ages, the average age of first marriage for women was early to mid 20s, though youthful marriage remained common among the aristocracy.

It seems similar in Westeros. When Manderly pretends to try to force his daughter to marry a Frey, even this pretended attempt at force implies that she does indeed have a choice - she can refuse him and join a religious order. He cannot just kick her out on the street, because a monastery will always take her.

[Mladen]

Another silly analogy. If you were expected to kill someone, pressurized to kill someone, forced by your father to kill someone and became a joke for not killing someone then award yourself with a Nobel Prize.

Tyrion wasn't pressurized to wed Sansa, otherwise he wouldn't have offered her a wa out with Lancel. So, no, he wasn't pressurized as he went into that marriage fully aware of what will be going on.

[JoeyBanana]

When did Sandor molest Sansa? And, to be clear, molesting means sexually assaulting. As I know, that has never happened. Even the Blackwater bay battle night, he actually never did anything sexually.

I thought it means making sexual advances. He clearly did that. But yeah, english isn't my native language, so i probably misused it. Still, whatever you want to call it, it's creepy and disturbing. I don't think he belongs on a list of people that would never force sex on Sansa.

[Annara Snow]

About not trusting Lannister, my argument is that he is helping her since ACOK; I find it hard to believe someone can be suspicious of a man who threatens the King in his face, just to protect her. Remember: the Hound was there too, and he did nothing until Tyrion commanded "someone" to cover Sansa. She feels more greatful towards the Hound than she does towards Tyrion. Why?

The biggest difference between Tyrion and The Hound is their agency and social rank in relation to Joffrey. The Hound could have very well ended up with his head on a spike for doing the same thing Tyrion, who is a close family member and high ranking lord did.

This.

I'm sick and tired of people using Tyrion stopping the beating of Sansa as some sort of evidence that he's a saint, a hero and better than everyone else. The only thing this incident proved is that he was a better person and a smarter person than Joffrey and Cersei. It's pretty simple: there were just three people in the entire King's Landing who had enough power to stop the beating without risking death: Cersei, Tyrion and Joffrey himself.

Sandor saying "Enough" was far riskier for him than stopping it was for Tyrion, who was the Hand of the King and a Lannister and had the power and the muscle he was commanding (Bronn, Shagga...) right beside him.

I do think Tyrion is a person decent enough to want to stop the beating and public humiliation of an innocent 12-year old hostage, but that doesn't mean that many others wouldn't have done the same if they had some of the power Tyrion had as Hand. Basic human decency is not enough to make you a hero or a saint. He was not sacrificing anything or risking his life to help her. I don't think of myself as a sacrificing saintly hero if I give a little bit of money to charity or to a beggar. It's not like that makes me the same as a person who ran into a burning building to save people.

Furthermore, Tyrion did not help Sansa just out of the goodness of his heart. He knew that beating and publicly humiliating Sansa, Joffrey's betrothed, in front of everyone, was terribly for the Lannister public image; these were Tyrion's own thoughts. He was also concerned for her because she was the only security he had that Jaime would not be executed.

And actually, she felt grateful to both Tyrion and Sandor, and prayed for both of them during the Blackwater battle. She just likes Sandor better. (Gee, what a bitch, how does she dare like someone she likes? How does she dare like anyone better than Tyrion? etc. etc.) She also thought Tyrion was "kind" while she was talking to Lysa in the Eyrie.

Oh, yay. Another one of the "Sansa should have been nicer to Tyrion threads". :stunned:

Tyrion was never nice to Sansa. The one time he stopped her public beating, he was more concerned with the effect it would have for Jaime. When he sent the Hound to rescue Sansa after the food riot, it was not because he was concerned for her, but because he was afraid of what the Starks would do to Jaime if Sansa had been wounded or killed.

Tyrion didn't send Sandor to save Sansa, Sandor wasn't around when he tried to do that. He tried to send Boros Blount and another KG (Mandon Moore, I think? I can't remember) but they initially refused. Sandor had meanwhile saved Sansa on his own accord.

Man, I was about to say I was thankful for no one saying anything about the title...

I said, more than once, the title isn't the best...

Did the OP say that Sansa was an ungrateful bitch? I think Tyrion deserves his share of blame too. But his share of the blame can't be 100% of it. He was also forced to marry, mind you, and even if he wanted Winterfell, he didn't want a child bride.

I'm not sure what you mean. Nobody said he was 100% guilty; Tywin was most guilty of all, Cersei also played a role by dragging Sansa to the wedding, etc. There's plenty of blame to go around.

I know and yet he still molested her.

The funny thing is, the argument was about Westerosi who would never rape Sansa, you know, what Tyrion did, and Sandor gets named. It's a bit weird, if you ask me. It's like adding the singer (forgot his name) and Baelish to the list.

Gee, isn't the main argument of the 'Sansa should have been nicer to Tyrion' crowd "Tyrion is such a great saintly hero because he could have raped Sansa when he had a chance but he did not"? So, by that logic, why aren't you also praising Sandor as a great saintly hero for not raping Sansa when he had every chance to? Let's give them both cookies then!

And Sandor didn't even sexually abuse her...which Tyrion did.

Now, he did threaten to kill her and put a knife to her throat...(yeah, Tyrion did not do that...) but hey, by the logic of this thread, since he changed his mind, that makes him a saintly hero, like Tyrion? No? :rolleyes:

And no, it's not the same as Marillion actually did try to rape her and was only stopped by Lothor Brune; and Baelish has been sexually abusing Sansa and trying to groom her. They are worse than Tyrion, yes. Duh?

You know what's one of the reasons I hate threads like this, besides them being so damn offensive and absurd? The fandom has almost made me hate Tyrion, who was one of my favorite characters. He's a fucked up dude, but still compelling and sympathetic. But a lot of his fans who treat him like a saint and the center of the universe have really soured Tyrion as a character for me with all their sexist bullshit.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I thought it means making sexual advances. He clearly did that. But yeah, english isn't my native language, so i probably misused it. Still, whatever you want to call it, it's creepy and disturbing. I don't think he belongs on a list of people that would never force sex on Sansa.

Sandor, Baelish and Tyrion never tried to force sex on Sansa. The fact that Tyrion is in the same league as Petyr shows that not raping someone shouldn't be considered such a good thing - It's like, extremely basic human decency. Even Petyr seems able to do it.