Do you forgive Sansa for judging Tyrion so harshly?

[hear me bore]

I understand that she doesn't have to love him, and I completely agree with her sexual rejection towards him. I mean, men can choose who they want to bed, why can't women? My point is, she is excessively rude to him, like she'd be with Joffrey. She could have been friendly towards him, at least, but she kept her armor on.

She was actually ruder to him than she was to Joffrey most of the time, the reasoning being that he wouldn't order her to get beat. I sympathize with her situation, but Tyrion went out of his way to be nice to her.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Friends with someone from a family who has made her life a living hell? That's bound to work out well

"If we all were punished for the acts of our relatives, this land would be made of headless men"

(or something like that, I don't remember the exact quote)

[Colonel Green]

And Sansa does consent. Sansa TWICE asks Tyrion if she should disrobe and then when Tyrion asks her if she's alright with it, she says yes. It

s not rape, not unless you expect Tyrion to magically read her mind (which he eventually does but that's beside the point).

No, Sansa does not consent. Tyrion is not a moron; he is well aware that a child hostage of an enemy family who was made to marry him at swordpoint (and Tyrion knows the swords are there) does not want to sleep with him.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

She was actually ruder to him than she was to Joffrey most of the time, the reasoning being that he wouldn't order her to get beat. I sympathize with her situation, but Tyrion went out of his way to be nice to her.

And she didn't do anything that was excessively nice for him, or threaten a king to protect him. I didn't expect her to threaten a king, mind you. I just wanted her to be a little more grateful that she won't be stripped by Joffrey, at least not today.

[LordStoneheart]

Nice to see you ignored the part where Tyrion did treat her very well.

And Sansa does consent. Sansa TWICE asks Tyrion if she should disrobe and then when Tyrion asks her if she's alright with it, she says yes. It

s not rape, not unless you expect Tyrion to magically read her mind (which he eventually does but that's beside the point).

Funny, how in a thread where people defend Sansa for not being able to read Tyrion's mind, Tyrion is getting slated for the same thing.

And post reported for saying I am a rape apologist.

And the fumbling of her fingers as she disrobed herself, that's not important either, I suppose? Her general tone of being scared out of her mind? No? Consent is more than just saying yes or no. Consent is choosing your partner and that's where this starts from. Sansa was forced into this against her will but Tyrion was not. she did not choose him and only said yes because after a year and half of torment one of the things she's learned is to do what they tell you to do or die. If she had tried to run away, she would have been dragged back by gold or white cloaks who have a history of beating her. It was not consent. It was not her choice.

To LordStoneheart; What I'm saying is: All the other lords were rapists, at least in the beginning of their marriages. Tyrion chose the road of honor, yes, because there was a naked woman in his bed, bound to him by marriage, and, opposing every single man in the history of Westeros, he listened to her wants and not just spread her legs and nailed her.

Again; want to call Tyrion a rapist? ADWD. Tyrion thought of Sansa in ASOS, and, even though he could, he didn't rape her. He could have thought of that the whole night and it doesn't matter, because he didn't do it.

Who else was forced into this marriage with no consent on both sides besides Jeyne Poole, as Mladen said? There are grey areas in this, of course. Catelyn's reminiscing of her own wedding night springs to mind in that she was excited about marrying Brandon but unsure of Ned. But she was not a captive and her family was not at war with the family she was marrying into.

[monika]

If Sansa still had her vanity she would have married Lancel. She wouldn't have been disappointed by when she found out she couldn't marry a cripple. She wouldn't be pining for Sandor, a man so ugly she can't even look at him dead on.

Tyrion is not the victim here, Sansa is. Refusing to rape her at her father's command like he did with his first wife may show growth, but whipping out his willy to brandish at a terrified 14 year old prisoner was bad enough.

She said she might never want to bed him not to be cruel, but to inform him of the scope of his promise. Yes, it hurt, because all of his friends up to that point were bought and paid for. It's not her fault he's starved for genuine affection.

I love me some Tyrion, but you have to admit, he's ten times worse of a snob toward Penny than Sansa is toward him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

A lot of women marry and go to bed unwilling, agree. But they aren't forced to marry into the family that killed their own. Nor to marry a dwarf in order to even force more humiliation into them. Nor marry at 12.

It's not like Sansa has no notions of sex. She did have small sexual fantasies about Loras, but that doesn't mean she was ready for sex, not even for Westeros standards. Tyrion did good on not forcing her and not allowing a bedding, but maybe, he could have faced his father and say "ok, I'll marry her, but we won't consummate until she's older" and not get himself into the terrible situation that we saw. At the end, he ended up getting humiliated as well when he saw Sansa's (totally understandable) repulsion.

[Mladen]

WWW said:

Then I take back the last quote. But still; she was married to him now, done before witnessess, and the King, and all the rest. If she isn't thinking of suicide, she should expect to spend the rest of her life at his side. So why not be his friend, at least? I know he is the supposed end of House Stark and all, but she could convince the next King to change her kid's names, at least. There were other ways out than just spitting in his face.

. What's the difference between arranged and forced? Think of Lysa Arryn, for an example.

Willas' kids would be Tyrells. How is that any different? Again, I agree. Sansa should bed who she wants to. But she could be a friend of Tyrion, not his enemy, you know?

1. Sansa is never rude to him, she actually is being quite nice to him, beside the fact that she doesn't want to have sex with him

2. Huge. If you think that every marriage in Westeros happened with guards threatening a bride to kill her if not married, then you are wrong. This was a special case. Arranged marriages are done with a huge respect and consideration of both parties, because this is political union, and both parties want it to be successful. That is why we have people of the same status, physical appearance etc. Whether we talk about Cat/Brandon or Lyanna/Robert, these unions were made with having two young beautiful individuals from rich families. This is how it's been done. We shouldn't forget that entire Westeros rejected Tywin when he was offering Tyrion left and right.

3. Tyrells were never Starks' enemies at that point. I understand how things worked on field, but for Sansa, major enemy was Lannisters.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Still hyperbole.

The first? No way. Most nobles know each other before their marriage because most marriage occurs nothing like Sansa's. This was in no way the standard MO.

All things considered, Tyrion could have behaved far worse, it's a given, but he did go pretty far before deciding to back off.

Probably not the first, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm sorry if I am exagerating too much.

He did go pretty far, but he didn't do it. That's like putting poison in someone's coffee, and then throwing the coffee in the floor before the person can drink. It's far, but not so far that it can't be undone, or at least, that the damage can't be reduced.

[Winter's Knight]

If Sansa still had her vanity she would have married Lancel. She wouldn't have been disappointed by when she found out she couldn't marry a cripple. She wouldn't be pining for Sandor, a man so ugly she can't even look at him dead on.

Tyrion is not the victim here, Sansa is. Refusing to rape her at her father's command like he did with his first wife may show growth, but whipping out his willy to brandish at a terrified 14 year old prisoner was bad enough.

She said she might never want to bed him not to be cruel, but to inform him of the scope of his promise. Yes, it hurt, because all of his friends up to that point were bought and paid for. It's not her fault he's starved for genuine affection.

I love me some Tyrion, but you have to admit, he's ten times worse of a snob toward Penny than Sansa is toward him.

Small nitpick: she was twelve.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I don't hold it against her as much as I could, and TBH I feel her actions were justifiable and as an abused prisoner of a psychopathic family who still clings on to some of her innocence are definitely understandable.

However I feel that she has done a lot of maturing over the last book or so, and whilst I don't think anyone expects her to fall into his arms if they reunite, I will be kind of pissed if she hasn't come to look at him more maturely as she ages. (Or perhaps by the time she does meet him she will have legitimate reasons to despise him.

[LordStoneheart]

Small nitpick: she was twelve.

Actually, kind of a big nitpick. She was only twelve, not even in her teens. Tyrion was in his mid-twenties.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Nice to see you ignored the part where Tyrion did treat her very well.

And Sansa does consent. Sansa TWICE asks Tyrion if she should disrobe and then when Tyrion asks her if she's alright with it, she says yes. It

s not rape, not unless you expect Tyrion to magically read her mind (which he eventually does but that's beside the point).

Funny, how in a thread where people defend Sansa for not being able to read Tyrion's mind, Tyrion is getting slated for the same thing.

And post reported for saying I am a rape apologist.

If your point is that it would not have been rape by Westeros Standard, you are correct. To them, there is no such thing as marital rape.

I just hope you understand that by modern standard, this was not consent. Sansa, being under duress (she is a prisoner) is not able to give consent to a captor, not as 'consent' is understood under modern laws. Her saying 'yes' is just self-preservation, much like Jeyne's 'consent' to Ramsay.

EDIT: Well, being twelve, under modern laws, it would have been statutory rape anyway!

[Winter's Knight]

I am somewhat disturbed by how many of y'all don't consider "marrying and molesting a twelve year old girl" as a legitimite reason for despising someone.

[LordStoneheart]

"If we all were punished for the acts of our relatives, this land would be made of headless men"

(or something like that, I don't remember the exact quote)

Except Tyrion had been actively furthering the Lannister cause, kept her prisoner when he could have sent her back, and (we know) was pleased about the possibility of getting Winterfell in the end, so thinking of stealing her ancestral home. HE has plenty of his own actions that don't need much association with Cersei or Joffrey

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Two families don't have to be at war for a bride not want a groom.

Lysa Arryn didn't want to marry Jon. Catelyn, to some extent, didn't want to marry Ned. Rhaenyra didn't want to marry Laenor. Yet they all did.

I don't think Lysa wanted to bed Jon, yet she did.

[hear me bore]

1. Sansa is never rude to him, she actually is being quite nice to him, beside the fact that she doesn't want to have sex with him

2. Huge. If you think that every marriage in Westeros happened with guards threatening a bride to kill her if not married, then you are wrong. This was a special case. Arranged marriages are done with a huge respect and consideration of both parties, because this is political union, and both parties want it to be successful. That is why we have people of the same status, physical appearance etc. Whether we talk about Cat/Brandon or Lyanna/Robert, these unions were made with having two young beautiful individuals from rich families. This is how it's been done. We shouldn't forget that entire Westeros rejected Tywin when he was offering Tyrion left and right.

3. Tyrells were never Starks' enemies at that point. I understand how things worked on field, but for Sansa, major enemy was Lannisters.

"This was a special case. Arranged marriages are done with a huge respect and consideration of both parties, because this is political union, and both parties want it to be successful. That is why we have people of the same status, physical appearance etc."

This is not true in a lot of cases: Lysa-Jon Arryn, any of Walder Frey's marriages, Bronn-that stupid girl. The line between what can be called rape in the marriage context in ASOIAF is definitely very blurry.

[Chebyshov]

I am somewhat disturbed by how many of y'all don't consider "marrying and molesting a twelve year old girl" as a legitimite reason for despising someone.

This. Also, she doesn't despise him, really. In the Vale, she almost calls him "kind" to her aunt. Sansa wants to escape him and the situation (who wouldn't?), but is relatively pleasant. Like, there's the time she finds him in dirty, crumpled clothes because he just got back from banging Shae, but suggests kindly that he wears his new, hansom doublet. Were they playing jenga? No. But given the situation she's fairly considerate of his feelings.

[Ser Eric]

And the fumbling of her fingers as she disrobed herself, that's not important either, I suppose? Her general tone of being scared out of her mind? No? Consent is more than just saying yes or no. Consent is choosing your partner and that's where this starts from. Sansa was forced into this against her will but Tyrion was not. she did not choose him and only said yes because after a year and half of torment one of the things she's learned is to do what they tell you to do or die. If she had tried to run away, she would have been dragged back by gold or white cloaks who have a history of beating her. It was not consent. It was not her choice.

She was a virgin, hardly a shock she was nervous. And no. Did she ever say she didn't want to have sex? Did she say no when Tyrion asked her? Did she not twice ask Tyrion if she should strip? It's not rape from Tyrion's PoV.

Tyrrion deserves every credit for doing the right thing, no matter what the reason. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise and actually blaming him is just....wow!

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Oh, yay. Another one of the "Sansa should have been nicer to Tyrion threads". :stunned:

She was actually ruder to him than she was to Joffrey most of the time, the reasoning being that he wouldn't order her to get beat. I sympathize with her situation, but Tyrion went out of his way to be nice to her.

Tyrion was never nice to Sansa. The one time he stopped her public beating, he was more concerned with the effect it would have for Jaime. When he sent the Hound to rescue Sansa after the food riot, it was not because he was concerned for her, but because he was afraid of what the Starks would do to Jaime if Sansa had been wounded or killed.

Sure, he was superficially polite to her after they married. But that doesn't erase or negate the massive injustice he committed in marrying her in the first place. No amount of polite small talk can wipe that out.

So, yeah. There is nothing to forgive and I believe she acted appropriately.