Do you forgive Sansa for judging Tyrion so harshly?

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Except Tyrion had been actively furthering the Lannister cause, kept her prisoner when he could have sent her back, and (we know) was pleased about the possibility of getting Winterfell in the end, so thinking of stealing her ancestral home. HE has plenty of his own actions that don't need much association with Cersei or Joffrey

Winterfell is a desirable seat, the ancestral seat of House Stark, and it comes with a Wardenship. I can't blame Tyrion for desiring it.

Further the Lannister cause, he did, because if anyone else wins, he is DEAD.

If Brienne and Jaime reached KL in time, I think he'd have traded Sansa for Jaime. I think. I think.

[Colonel Green]

She was a virgin, hardly a shock she was nervous. And no. Did she ever say she didn't want to have sex? Did she say no when Tyrion asked her? Did she not twice ask Tyrion if she should strip? It's not rape from Tyrion's PoV.

Sansa doesn't have to say those things, because they're evident from her situation. She's a hostage. If asked, she'll say whatever she feels she needs to to survive. That's coercion, by definition.

[Julia Martell]

Why are we judging Sansa so harshly.

Tyrion isn't entitled to have sex with her, and she doesn't owe anyone an explanation for not being attracted to him and not wanting to have sex with him.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Why are we judging Sansa so harshly.

Tyrion isn't entitled to have sex with her, and she doesn't owe anyone an explanation for not being attracted to him and not wanting to have sex with him.

That is the common opinion being shown here. The discussion is turned more towards her cold treatment to Tyrion, but yes, I think everyone here agrees she didn't have to desire him.

[Winter's Knight]

She was a virgin, hardly a shock she was nervous. And no. Did she ever say she didn't want to have sex? Did she say no when Tyrion asked her? Did she not twice ask Tyrion if she should strip? It's not rape from Tyrion's PoV.

Tyrrion deserves every credit for doing the right thing, no matter what the reason. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise and actually blaming him is just....wow!

I am not in the habit of giving men credit for not raping little girls, no matter how much they wanted to.

Sansa does not say no, because she cannot. For the last year or so she has been beaten and abused for appearing to be even slightly out-of-line and Tyrion knows this. He knows she's here against her will, that she dislikes him and would never have willingly married him.

If anything he's lucky she didn't stick a knife in his throat as he slept. Lord knows he deserves it.

[Ser Eric]

Sansa doesn't have to say those things, because they're evident from her situation. She's a hostage. If asked, she'll say whatever she feels she needs to to survive. That's coercion, by definition.

She does have to. Tyrion is not a mind reader.

[Mladen]

This is not true in a lot of cases: Lysa-Jon Arryn, any of Walder Frey's marriages, Bronn-that stupid girl. The line between what can be called rape in the marriage context in ASOIAF is definitely very blurry.

All of those are special cases (with probable exception of Walder Frey). Lysa/Jon was done because of war, plus no one said to Lysa "we will kill you if you don't do it" which was said to Sansa. The line is not blurry, we know when wife cooperates and when she doesn't. For every special case, there are dozens and dozens of normal arranged marriages where both sides goes into marriage willingly.

She was a virgin, hardly a shock she was nervous. And no. Did she ever say she didn't want to have sex? Did she say no when Tyrion asked her? Did she not twice ask Tyrion if she should strip? It's not rape from Tyrion's PoV.

It is because he knows very well that he will be forcing himself on her. Rape as concept does exist in Westeros.

And lying there trembling, behaving like a corpse holding sheets to her neck is an invitation? Give me a break... Her entire body speech spoke volumes.

[LordStoneheart]

Two families don't have to be at war for a bride not want a groom.

Lysa Arryn didn't want to marry Jon. Catelyn, to some extent, didn't want to marry Ned. Rhaenyra didn't want to marry Laenor. Yet they all did.

I don't think Lysa wanted to bed Jon, yet she did.

I've spoken of Lysa's situation being awful in the past on Lysa Sympathy threads. Catelyn's case is more special because she did in fact want Brandon and her disappointment in marrying Ned stems from that, but growing up with the words Family, Duty, Honor, she no doubt saw why their union was important. We have no indications that Catelyn was against the marriage in the way that Lysa and Sansa were.

She was a virgin, hardly a shock she was nervous. And no. Did she ever say she didn't want to have sex? Did she say no when Tyrion asked her? Did she not twice ask Tyrion if she should strip? It's not rape from Tyrion's PoV.

Tyrrion deserves every credit for doing the right thing, no matter what the reason. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise and actually blaming him is just....wow!

"A lady's armor is her courtesy." Hardly the statement of a woman who wants to have sex. I mean, a 12 year old girl. Why was she armored? because she didn't want it but knew it was both expected of her and that she if she resisted she might be beaten.

Tyrion deserves nothing but scorn for forcibly marrying and molesting a 12 year old girl.

[Ser Eric]

I am not in the habit of giving men credit for not raping little girls, no matter how much they wanted to.

Sansa does not say no, because she cannot. For the last year or so she has been beaten and abused for appearing to be even slightly out-of-line and Tyrion knows this. He knows she's here against her will, that she dislikes him and would never have willingly married him.

And Sansa also knows Tyrion has been exceedingly kind to her whenever possible and defended her at possible cost to his life.

If anything he's lucky she didn't stick a knife in his throat as he slept. Lord knows he deserves it.

Yeah, he deserves it for being the only one to be kind to her. Fucking hell...

[hear me bore]

Oh, yay. Another one of the "Sansa should have been nicer to Tyrion threads". :stunned:

Tyrion was never nice to Sansa. The one time he stopped her public beating, he was more concerned with the effect it would have for Jaime. When he sent the Hound to rescue Sansa after the food riot, it was not because he was concerned for her, but because he was afraid of what the Starks would do to Jaime if Sansa had been wounded or killed.

Sure, he was superficially polite to her after they married. But that doesn't erase or negate the massive injustice he committed in marrying her in the first place. No amount of polite small talk can wipe that out.

So, yeah. There is nothing to forgive and I believe she acted appropriately.

Stopping her from getting beaten and stripped is being pretty damn nice. Even if the reason is the one you say, I'm sure Sansa would be ok with his motivations. Same thing with rescuing her from the mob; would it be better if he didn't do it? No, you probably want him to do it solely out of the goodness of his heart (which I think was probably part of the reason anyway).

And she was going to be married off to someone anyway, that much was clear. It actually turned out great for her instead of being married of to some other Lannister brute.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Sexual intercourse without the consent of both parties is rape. Sansa sure as hell didn't consent.

As to the OP - there is nothing to forgive. She owed him doodle squat. I was happy for her when she refused to kneel for him

Because making a mockery of a disabled person in front of hundreds of people in a world where status is everything is such a great thing!

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Here, Tyrion offers her Lancel(not a bad choice as Lannisters go, since even Cersei wanted a bit of him; but, if we're talking of personalities, he really is a bad choice.)

She even says, I remember. Why so much hate towards Tyrion, then?

Before I'm made to hear the same argument a hundred times, I'll state it here, already: Sansa has the right to hate every single Lannister in the earth, and, if the Seven were Lannisters, Sansa would be an atheist. But, my point here isn't about all the Lannisters that Sansa can, should and does hate(Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin to some extent, Lancel too perhaps) but about the one single Lannister who is trying to be nice to her. I get that she hates Tyrion; I just want to know why she hates him as much as she hates Joffrey.

But the thing is, she doesn't. She doesn't care much for the marriage with Tyrion (OK, that might be an understatement of sort), but it's nothing compared to her white-hot hatred for Joffrey. As evidenced in her conversation with Lady Lysa, for example.

[Dornish Vinegar]

Why are we judging Sansa so harshly.

Tyrion isn't entitled to have sex with her, and she doesn't owe anyone an explanation for not being attracted to him and not wanting to have sex with him.

I am not in the habit of giving men credit for not raping little girls, no matter how much they wanted to.

Sansa does not say no, because she cannot. For the last year or so she has been beaten and abused for appearing to be even slightly out-of-line and Tyrion knows this. He knows she's here against her will, that she dislikes him and would never have willingly married him.

If anything he's lucky she didn't stick a knife in his throat as he slept. Lord knows he deserves it.

:agree: Nothing more to say about any of this tbh

[Wmarshal]

No, he is a little monster who deserves nothing.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

If anything he's lucky she didn't stick a knife in his throat as he slept. Lord knows he deserves it.

What a wonderful person you are.

[Ser Eric]

"A lady's armor is her courtesy." Hardly the statement of a woman who wants to have sex. I mean, a 12 year old girl. Why was she armored? because she didn't want it but knew it was both expected of her and that she if she resisted she might be beaten.

Tyrion deserves nothing but scorn for forcibly marrying and molesting a 12 year old girl.

If you ignore everything leading up to and after the marriage then yes he deserves scorn. Otherwise (i.e you actually read the books) the no.

[Wmarshal]

What a wonderful person you are.

Well, it is not like he gave a horde of monsters weapons to rape and butcher a kingdom's smallfolk, oh wait...

[hear me bore]

All of those are special cases (with probable exception of Walder Frey). Lysa/Jon was done because of war, plus no one said to Lysa "we will kill you if you don't do it" which was said to Sansa. The line is not blurry, we know when wife cooperates and when she doesn't. For every special case, there are dozens and dozens of normal arranged marriages where both sides goes into marriage willingly.

It is because he knows very well that he will be forcing himself on her. Rape as concept does exist in Westeros.

And lying there trembling, behaving like a corpse holding sheets to her neck is an invitation? Give me a break... Her entire body speech spoke volumes.

You can make a special case for almost all the marriages. And how is the line not blurry with Lysa? You think she willingly married an old man? Any I'm not sure about your definition of willingly. Sure Lysa and others may not be threatened with death like Sansa, but what is the choice? It's certainly not an option to say no.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

But the thing is, she doesn't. She doesn't care much for the marriage with Tyrion (OK, that might be an understatement of sort), but it's nothing compared to her white-hot hatred for Joffrey. As evidenced in her conversation with Lady Lysa, for example.

Well, as much as Sansa can think of Tyrion, she never tells him. I could make 1000 praises to your person, but if I don't tell you, you'll never know.

[Mladen]

Because making a mockery of a disabled person in front of hundreds of people in a world where status is everything is such a great thing!

Yeah, those two are really comparable.

Sansa didn't mocked him. She just did something without thinking, and when she realized that people are mocking him, she knelt and kissed him. She didn't intentionally mocked him like his family did.

Stopping her from getting beaten and stripped is being pretty damn nice. Even if the reason is the one you say, I'm sure Sansa would be ok with his motivations. Same thing with rescuing her from the mob; would it be better if he didn't do it? No, you probably want him to do it solely out of the goodness of his heart (which I think was probably part of the reason anyway).

And she was going to be married off to someone anyway, that much was clear. It actually turned out great for her instead of being married of to some other Lannister brute.

As I know, Hound saved her. And yes, I am sorry for thinking that Tyrion is not in the same league with Gregor, Joffrey and Ramsay some Tyrion fans put him constantly. Apparently, I have higher standards for expecting him to do the right thing.