Do you forgive Sansa for judging Tyrion so harshly?

[David Selig]

Don't get me wrong, Sansa had it much worse than Tyrion during their marriage. I'm not saying she should have trusted him either. But why doesn't Tyrion get more credit for preserving Sansa's innocence? Sure, 'not raping a teenage girl' sets the bar pretty low when it comes to accomplishments; yet most men in identical circumstances would not have been so honorable. At the expense of his reputation, he resisted the temptations of youth&beauty that belonged to him by law.

The expense to his reputation was only in his head due to his paranoia. How would anyone know what he does in his bedroom know? Except Varys, of course, but he wouldn't tell anyone but Tywin since he's not stupid.

[Ser Eric]

Tyrion wasn't pressurized to wed Sansa, otherwise he wouldn't have offered her a wa out with Lancel. So, no, he wasn't pressurized as he went into that marriage fully aware of what will be going on.

Pressurized into sex obviously. Tywin wanted an heir and it was Tyrion's duty to provide one. And he was willing to wait for it. No one's saying Tyrion is the second coming of christ. I don't even like him all that much anymore ffs

Meh, can't be bothered anymore. I have obviously landed in a nest of Tyrion haters.

[Annara Snow]

Sandor, Baelish and Tyrion never tried to force sex on Sansa. The fact that Tyrion is in the same league as Petyr shows that not raping someone shouldn't be considered such a good thing - It's like, extremely basic human decency. Even Petyr seems able to do it.

I don't think it's got anything to do with decency when it comes to Baelish. Rape would be detrimental to his attempts to slowly brainwash and groom Sansa into his future lover/wife/partner/pawn who would, in his fantasy, be his Cat 2.0 as well as help him gain more power. Not to mention that he's forced kisses on her and making her sit in his lap.

And don't forget that he was asking Cersei to let him marry Sansa when she was 11.

[JoeyBanana]

Gee, isn't the main argument of the 'Sansa should have been nicer to Tyrion' crowd "Tyrion is such a great saintly hero because he could have raped Sansa when he had a chance but he did not"? So, by that logic, why aren't you also praising Sandor as a great saintly hero for not raping Sansa when he had every chance to? Let's give them both cookies then!

And Sandor didn't even sexually abuse her...which Tyrion did.

Now, he did threaten to kill her and put a knife to her throat...(yeah, Tyrion did not do that...) but hey, by the logic of this thread, since he changed his mind, that makes him a saintly hero, like Tyrion? No? :rolleyes:

I am not praising Sandor because i never praised Tyrion. Re-read my posts in this thread and you'll see my opinion. If you don't want to, here's a quick summary: Tyrion is the one who should ask for forgiveness, is not to be praised for not raping Sansa, is to be condemned for molesting her, but i also respect him for not forcing it on Sansa in the context of the series and his own personality. He had the opportunity to do it and get away with it, he clearly wanted to, and yet he didn't do it. You may not respect him for that, but i do.

[JoeyBanana]

Sandor, Baelish and Tyrion never tried to force sex on Sansa. The fact that Tyrion is in the same league as Petyr shows that not raping someone shouldn't be considered such a good thing - It's like, extremely basic human decency. Even Petyr seems able to do it.

I'm not saying it's a good thing. I was just pointing out that i don't trust these men to not do it eventually, that's all. Don't get me wrong, that includes Tyrion.

[Mladen]

Pressurized into sex obviously. Tywin wanted an heir and it was Tyrion's duty to provide one. And he was willing to wait for it. No one's saying Tyrion is the second coming of christ. I don't even like him all that much anymore ffs

Meh, can't be bothered anymore. I have obviously landed in a nest of Tyrion haters.

No you haven't landed into nest of Tyrio haters, it is just easier arguing while pretending that other side is hater... Makes position easier. I am not playing that game and if you can't restrain from calling me hater for not thibking the same way you do, I suppose we can end this.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I don't think it's got anything to do with decency when it comes to Baelish. Rape would be detrimental to his attempts to slowly brainwash and groom Sansa into his future lover/wife/partner/pawn who would, in his fantasy, be his Cat 2.0 as well as help him gain more power. Not to mention that he's forced kisses on her and making her sit in his lap.

And don't forget that he was asking Cersei to let him marry Sansa when she was 11.

Very much true and I agree completely. The point is, he can at least control his urges. Why should we pat Tyrion on the back for not raping someone? If even Petyr can wait until he brainwashes Sansa (I'd bet he'd do exactly that if he had married Sansa back then, due to his final goal), which is pretty much setting the bar extremely low, why should Tyrion be awarded for being slightly better than a sociopathic man with projection issues?

I'm not saying it's a good thing. I was just pointing out that i don't trust these men to not do it eventually, that's all. Don't get me wrong, that includes Tyrion.

I understand. I don't trust any of them either, to be honest, nor even the Hound, as much as I appreciate him.

[hear me bore]

This.

I'm sick and tired of people using Tyrion stopping the beating of Sansa as some sort of evidence that he's a saint, a hero and better than everyone else. The only thing this incident proved is that he was a better person and a smarter person than Joffrey and Cersei. It's pretty simple: there were just three people in the entire King's Landing who had enough power to stop the beating without risking death: Cersei, Tyrion and Joffrey himself.

Sandor saying "Enough" was far riskier for him than stopping it was for Tyrion, who was the Hand of the King and a Lannister and had the power and the muscle he was commanding (Bronn, Shagga...) right beside him.

I do think Tyrion is a person decent enough to want to stop the beating and public humiliation of an innocent 12-year old hostage, but that doesn't mean that many others wouldn't have done the same if they had some of the power Tyrion had as Hand. Basic human decency is not enough to make you a hero or a saint. He was not sacrificing anything or risking his life to help her. I don't think of myself as a sacrificing saintly hero if I give a little bit of money to charity or to a beggar. It's not like that makes me the same as a person who ran into a burning building to save people.

Furthermore, Tyrion did not help Sansa just out of the goodness of his heart. He knew that beating and publicly humiliating Sansa, Joffrey's betrothed, in front of everyone, was terribly for the Lannister public image; these were Tyrion's own thoughts. He was also concerned for her because she was the only security he had that Jaime would not be executed.

And actually, she felt grateful to both Tyrion and Sandor, and prayed for both of them during the Blackwater battle. She just likes Sandor better. (Gee, what a bitch, how does she dare like someone she likes? How does she dare like anyone better than Tyrion? etc. etc.) She also thought Tyrion was "kind" while she was talking to Lysa in the Eyrie.

Tyrion didn't send Sandor to save Sansa, Sandor wasn't around when he tried to do that. He tried to send Boros Blount and another KG (Mandon Moore, I think? I can't remember) but they initially refused. Sandor had meanwhile saved Sansa on his own accord.

I'm not sure what you mean. Nobody said he was 100% guilty; Tywin was most guilty of all, Cersei also played a role by dragging Sansa to the wedding, etc. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Gee, isn't the main argument of the 'Sansa should have been nicer to Tyrion' crowd "Tyrion is such a great saintly hero because he could have raped Sansa when he had a chance but he did not"? So, by that logic, why aren't you also praising Sandor as a great saintly hero for not raping Sansa when he had every chance to? Let's give them both cookies then!

And Sandor didn't even sexually abuse her...which Tyrion did.

Now, he did threaten to kill her and put a knife to her throat...(yeah, Tyrion did not do that...) but hey, by the logic of this thread, since he changed his mind, that makes him a saintly hero, like Tyrion? No? :rolleyes:

And no, it's not the same as Marillion actually did try to rape her and was only stopped by Lothor Brune; and Baelish has been sexually abusing Sansa and trying to groom her. They are worse than Tyrion, yes. Duh?

You know what's one of the reasons I hate threads like this, besides them being so damn offensive and absurd? The fandom has almost made me hate Tyrion, who was one of my favorite characters. He's a fucked up dude, but still compelling and sympathetic. But a lot of his fans who treat him like a saint and the center of the universe have really soured Tyrion as a character for me with all their sexist bullshit.

This thread wasn't about turning Tyrion into a hero or a saint. It addresses Sansa's judgment of him and whether he deserved to be treated better. He first saved her from a beating and then saved her from getting molested by Joffrey during the bedding, so I think a little thanks was in order.

Regardless of whether Tyrion had enough power to challenge the king, it still took lots of courage. He was still calling out the king in front of everyone, and that on top of knowing no one there liked him. And he was absolutely risking Joffrey's animosity with his actions. I think it goes beyond basic human decency. How many people showed basic human decency when Joffrey was humiliating Tyrion at the PW? The only objection I remember was Garlan Tyrell and even that wasn't much. You're severely underplaying his service to Sansa just to show that he isn't a good guy. She was basically about to get stripped naked in court.

[Annara Snow]

I am not praising Sandor because i never praised Tyrion. Re-read my posts in this thread and you'll see my opinion. If you don't want to, here's a quick summary: Tyrion is the one who should ask for forgiveness, is not to be praised for not raping Sansa, is to be condemned for molesting her, but i also respect him for not forcing it on Sansa in the context of the series and his own personality. He had the opportunity to do it and get away with it, he clearly wanted to, and yet he didn't do it. You may not respect him for that, but i do.

The entire line of discussion was about Ser Eric's claim that Tyrion is the only man in Westeros who would not force sex on Sansa in this situation. He outright stated that every other man in Westeros would have raped her. People responded by listing a whole bunch of characters that they believe would also not rape a terrified 12-year old hostage forced to marry them.

You objected to Sandor being included. Yet you did not object to Tyrion's inclusion on the list, which was the whole reason why people started listing other characters who would not rape Sansa. Why didn't you object to Tyrion's initial inclusion, i.e. Ser Eric's statement?

[Annara Snow]

This thread wasn't about turning Tyrion into a hero or a saint. It addresses Sansa's judgment of him and whether he deserved to be treated better. He first saved her from a beating and then saved her from getting molested by Joffrey during the bedding, so I think a little thanks was in order.

You mean, like this?

“The food and garments are to your satisfaction?” he asked. “If there is anything else you need, you have only to ask.”

“You are most kind. And this morning... it was very good of you to help me.”

(Sansa III, ACOK)

He studied her with his mismatched eyes. “I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa,” he said softly, “but neither am I Joffrey.”

“No,” she said. “You were kind to me. I remember.”

(Sansa III, ASOS)

Regardless of whether Tyrion had enough power to challenge the king, it still took lots of courage. He was still calling out the king in front of everyone, and that on top of knowing no one there liked him. And he was absolutely risking Joffrey's animosity with his actions. I think it goes beyond basic human decency. How many people showed basic human decency when Joffrey was humiliating Tyrion at the PW? The only objection I remember was Garlan Tyrell and even that wasn't much. You're severely underplaying his service to Sansa just to show that he isn't a good guy. She was basically about to get stripped naked in court.

Way to miss the point... which I made in the very post you quoted.

How many people were in position to show "basic human decency" by confronting Joffrey about his treatment of Tyrion at the PW? Only Tywin, Cersei, the Tyrells and Oberyn. For pretty much everyone else, confronting Joffrey wouldn't have been basic human decency; it would be heroism, probably self-sacrificial, suicidal and ultimately futile (since Joffrey could have just executed them - something he couldn't have done with Tyrion - and continued to do whatever he wanted).

How many people were in position to show "basic human decency" by confronting Joffrey about his treatment of Sansa in ACOK? Only Tyrion and Cersei, out of the people present at the time in the entirety of King's Landing. For everyone else, it would have been heroism, possibly self-sacrificial, suicidal and ultimately futile, since Joffrey could have executed them and then proceeded to mistreat Sansa even more.

[James Arryn]

The expense to his reputation was only in his head due to his paranoia. How would anyone know what he does in his bedroom know? Except Varys, of course, but he wouldn't tell anyone but Tywin since he's not stupid.

They literally used to check bridal sheets for blood. Medieval privacy mostly isn't, and marital relations weren't considered particularly private/personal affairs.

[new djinn]

Oh no! Sansa was rude to one of her kidnappers!

[hear me bore]

You mean, like this?

“The food and garments are to your satisfaction?” he asked. “If there is anything else you need, you have only to ask.”

“You are most kind. And this morning... it was very good of you to help me.”

(Sansa III, ACOK)

He studied her with his mismatched eyes. “I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa,” he said softly, “but neither am I Joffrey.”

“No,” she said. “You were kind to me. I remember.”

(Sansa III, ASOS)

Way to miss the point... which I made in the very post you quoted.

How many people were in position to show "basic human decency" by confronting Joffrey about his treatment of Tyrion at the PW? Only Tywin, Cersei, the Tyrells and Oberyn. For pretty much everyone else, confronting Joffrey wouldn't have been basic human decency; it would be heroism, probably self-sacrificial, suicidal and ultimately futile (since Joffrey could have just executed them - something he couldn't have done with Tyrion - and continued to do whatever he wanted).

How many people were in position to show "basic human decency" by confronting Joffrey about his treatment of Sansa in ACOK? Only Tyrion and Cersei, out of the people present at the time in the entirety of King's Landing. For everyone else, it would have been heroism, possibly self-sacrificial, suicidal and ultimately futile, since Joffrey could have executed them and then proceeded to mistreat Sansa even more.

Yeah, those are great quotes. I also remember the scene where she purposefully embarrassed him in front of everyone by not kneeling, after he'd saved her from publicly being embarrassed.

And I didn't miss the point. You just mentioned about 10 people who could have done something to help Tyrion but chose not to. And basic human decency and being a hero are not mutually exclusive. You're also disregarding the danger Tyrion did face by confronting Joffrey. Does he care that Tyrion is the Hand of the King? The only thing preventing him from killing Tyrion was probably Tyrion having his own guards.

[Bustard]

The expense to his reputation was only in his head due to his paranoia. How would anyone know what he does in his bedroom know? Except Varys, of course, but he wouldn't tell anyone but Tywin since he's not stupid.

From Tywin's perspective, arranging their marriage would be pointless if not for consummation. I can't imagine he would let Tyrion's honor stand between House Lannister and the North.

[Chebyshov]

They literally used to check bridal sheets for blood. Medieval privacy mostly isn't, and marital relations weren't considered particularly private/personal affairs.

Still, the absence of a bloody sheet meant little, by itself. Common peasant girls bled like pigs upon their wedding nights, she had heard, but that was less true of highborn maids like Margaery Tyrell. A lord’s daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband, it was said, and Margaery had been riding since she was old enough to walk.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Tyrion is my favorite character, and I wish Sansa had been a little nicer to him. I don't mean on their wedding night; later. He was so willing to be a real friend to her, and that could have been of great value to both of them.

I find it impossible to blame her, though. She has seen the Nice Lannister movie before and is still trying desperately not to stay til the ending.

Word quibble: if Tyrion had taken her sexually after they were married, it would not have been rape. Wrong? yes. Rape? No.

Rape is a legal term, and it has a specific meaning. The idea that a husband can rape a wife is of fairly recent vintage. A century ago, there was no such thing as marital rape anywhere in the world. The idea only began to arise around mid-20th century and didn't really get going until the feminist movement was born in the '60s. In South Carolina marital rape is still only a crime if accompanied by violence.

From the Wiki:

Countries which were early to criminalize marital rape include the Soviet Union (1922/1960),^[23]Poland (1932), Czechoslovakia (1950), some other members of the Communist Bloc, Denmark (1960),Sweden (1965),^[24] and Norway (1971).^[24]Slovenia, then a republic within federal Yugoslavia, criminalized marital rape in 1977.^[25] The Israeli Supreme Court affirmed that marital rape is a crime in a 1980 decision, citing law based on the Talmud (at least 6th century).^[26][27] Criminalization in Australia began with the state of New South Wales in 1981, followed by all other states from 1985 to 1992.^[28] Several formerly British-ruled countries followed suit: Canada (1983),^[29][30]New Zealand (1985), and Ireland (1990).^[28]

Marital rape was criminalized in Austria in 1989^[31] (and in 2004 it became a state offense meaning it can be prosecuted by the state even in the absence of a complaint from the spouse, with procedures being similar to stranger rape^[32]). In Switzerland marital rape became a crime in 1992^[33] (and became a state offense in 2004^[34]). In Spain, the Supreme Court ruled in 1992 that sex within marriage must be consensual and that sexuality in marriage must be understood in light of the principle of the freedom to make one's own decisions with respect to sexual activity; in doing so it upheld the conviction of a man who had been found guilty of raping his wife by a lower court.^{[35] * * *}

The criminalization of marital rape in the United States started in the mid-1970s and by 1993 marital rape became a crime in all 50 states, under at least one section of the sexual offense codes

[JoeyBanana]

The entire line of discussion was about Ser Eric's claim that Tyrion is the only man in Westeros who would not force sex on Sansa in this situation. He outright stated that every other man in Westeros would have raped her. People responded by listing a whole bunch of characters that they believe would also not rape a terrified 12-year old hostage forced to marry them.

You objected to Sandor being included. Yet you did not object to Tyrion's inclusion on the list, which was the whole reason why people started listing other characters who would not rape Sansa. Why didn't you object to Tyrion's initial inclusion, i.e. Ser Eric's statement?

Well, i actually think Tyrion doesn't belong on that list either, i wrote as much a few posts later. Not that i ever needed to since my objection to Sandor was exclusively based on the premise of Sandor never forcing sex on Sansa. I merely disagreed with that idea. Tyrion had nothing do with that paragraph other than being a part of a sarcastic remark in which i mentioned he molested her but the following ones in that post were really about him.

I don't get why i have to object to Tyrion while objecting to someone else or why it even matters. I'm sorry if there was a missunderstanding but i'm really not going to argue about stuff like this, especially when simply reading my comments would probably solve the confusion, since it smells awfully like you're trying to bait me into a debate that's about my opinion or what i wrote and not the topic itself. I've voiced my opinion, agree or disagree, that's it.

Okay, there's the molestation part, i didn't know the actual definition of the word, i should correct that, actually.

[Pod The Impaler]

In any case, I do not think the thread premise really holds up.

There is nothing Sansa did which needs to be forgiven. She was a prisoner forced into a ceremony that even he thought was a farcical bit of political cynicism, not truly his wife.

Nor did she really judge him so harshly - being cold and distant to him, as opposed to how his own family treated him with undisguised malice, or even how the general public mocked him and blamed him for all their ills.

[James Arryn]

Still, the absence of a bloody sheet meant little, by itself. Common peasant girls bled like pigs upon their wedding nights, she had heard, but that was less true of highborn maids like Margaery Tyrell. A lord’s daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband, it was said, and Margaery had been riding since she was old enough to walk.

The blood point wasn't about forensic value, but about how sex in medieval political alliances wasn't something reserved to the privacy of the individuals. People may well go to war/kill/die based on the product or non-product of those kinds of alliances, as we have seen in the books. That's in keeping with how little 'privacy' is therefore afforded the people on whom those things depend. As many truces were cemented with marital pacts, it was anything but unusual for someone to find themselves in the Tyrion-Sansa situation of being expected to marry recent enemies, with all that entails.

[WhiteOwl18]

No I won't forgive Sansa with regard to Tyrion. And here is the reason: There is really nothing to forgive. Sansa didn't do anything wrong.

Exactly. She's a political prisoner who is being forced to marry into the family who killed her father and was directly responsible for the deaths of her mother and brother. I don't see why she has to be nice to any of them. Tyrion might seem a bit nicer than the rest of them, but she still doesn't owe him a damn thing.