Do you forgive Sansa for judging Tyrion so harshly?

[Minsc]

It's like asking ADWD Theon to dance. Tyrion can't dance. He has stunted legs, and he can't hold Sansa by the hand and guide her, like the dance would need.

Tyrion has fought in battle, I am sure he is able to make one dance

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Sansa's role is one of prisoner, and whatever arrangements were made for her were forced upon her by her family's enemies - there is no doubt of this. Truly, if she got what she actually wanted, it would be to flee from any and all Lannisters, and back into the "safe" arms of her family & home.

She clings to the Willas idea, maybe disappointed that it's the crippled brother not the dashing young Loras, but even this is mostly a dream based in the idea of escape.

(And when she realizes they want to takeover her claim, not engineer her rescue, she thinks differently about the Tyrells too.)

By this point in the story she's come to understand that Tyrion is perhaps the least hostile of all her Lannister captors, and inclined to protect her from Joffrey, but he is still on their side.

Tyrion is still a Lannister, fighting for the evil Lannister king and his evil parent(s) and evil grandparent.

Sansa (or anyone) would have to be blind to believe that these Lannisters all get along wonderfully - clearly, there are some deep grudges going on. But when push comes to shove, she cannot count any of them as being truly on her side as long as they are Lannisters.

Sansa instinctively has some pity for Tyrion, but this is just the tip of the iceberg she is seeing. Sansa is not privy to Tyrions incredibly awful upbringing; she cannot fathom what it is like to be a dwarf and scorned by all women as less than a man (including her). The additional blame and sadistic abuse visited upon Tyrion by his own family would be appalling to her. The Tysha story alone would have her throwing herself from a tower window rather than even risk marrying him.

We see this, so we can understand how deep Tyrion's humilation goes - Sansa doesn't / can't. So I cannot blame her. What is she going to do, want him? Love him?

From Tyrion's perspective: Sansa's rejection of him is very hurtful, but basically more of the same hurt he's been experiencing his whole life; Sansa's rejection was not more cruel, and if there was an element of cruelty to it, it was his own family that was responsible: she is beautiful and pure, but on top of the fact you are always going to be a scarred-up dwarf, you family and hers are mortal foes. Basically, your family has arranged that for the sake of the war, you should rape a beautiful, pure, and innocent young maid, and call it a "marriage". Your family does not think this is even a "joy" you deserve to have, but they also expect you to commit this monstrous act because a monster is what you are, and why not ? You've done it for House Lannister before, and even a whore could never truly want you as a man.

From Sansa's perspective: It's like all the dreams she had of a happy loving marriage to a man she desires are being not just destroyed, but mocked too. A marriage at sword point, to one of her captors. Kind as he might be, foe of Joffrey that he might be, she gets to be bedded by a dwarf with some sort of deep-seated angst or something, for the rest of her life, knowing that in her womb shall grow the means by which Winterfell will fall into the hands of her familiy's enemies. If Tyrion was really kind or on her side, he would be acting as her rescuer not trying to act her husband.

The sad, stupid thing here, is how they are each one of the few people who appreciates the other as a person. They should not be enemies, but circumstances made them enemies. Both tried being the good little supporter of their house, and this miserable situation is what it has come down to. They both have to just try to deal with it as best they can, but they'd love to negate all of it if they could.

No, I don't think Tyrion takes her attitude too personally. It hurts, but he told himself the truth about her many times - she is dutiful, obedient, but will forever be cold and wish she was somewhere else. Even after she escapes from King's Landing and he is put on trial, I don't think he expected her to be loyal to him or anything. It's sad for him to be left behind to die, but understandable.

I like your points. It makes way more sense to me if she sees him as the loss of Winterfell rather than the man Tyrion is. Thank you, I hadn't thought of the situation like that.

I agree with you, she didn't have to want to marry him. She didn't have to love him, or to consider him "the Starkest of Lannisters". She could have been a friend to him, nonetheless. If all, she could at least be fake-nice to him. And if she was, she probably would have his love almost instantly. Perhaps it's just me wanting to see someone being nice to Tyrion, but I still think that she could at least have returned the favors he did her when he defended her from Joffrey and Meryn.

[David Selig]

It's like asking ADWD Theon to dance. Tyrion can't dance. He has stunted legs, and he can't hold Sansa by the hand and guide her, like the dance would need.

He can do freaking acrobatics, so a half-decent dancing isn't out of question. Nobody expected him to be the Westerosi Fred Astaire.

[Mladen]

Perhaps it's just me wanting to see someone being nice to Tyrion, but I still think that she could at least have returned the favors he did her when he defended her from Joffrey and Meryn.

Well, she chose to marry him over Lancel thus giving him a lifetime chance of being a Highlord... What more did she need to do?

[LordStoneheart]

Why is deciding not to rape Sansa an act that must be "forgiven"?

Because he was going to do it but then stopped. Simple. That he considered it is worthy of condemnation.

Objective posting I see... :rolleyes:

Worthless posting I see.

I applaud Tyrion for doing the right thing i.e not bedding Sansa. He doesn't get enough credit for that.

"He could've raped her but he chose not to. What a great guy."

Reminds me of this.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Well, you basically listed their wedding night as one of the examples where Sansa was rude to Tyrion. Logically, the only way she could have been "less rude" is to allow him to rape her. Plain and simple.

Now, I didn't say you have been inciting a rape, but when you choose to exemplify this, you leave space for people wondering what you meant. And trust me, arguing that she should have slept with Tyrion isn't a new argument.

Also, when did Sansa insulted Tyrion solely based on the fact that he is dwarf? She even reproached herself for being stubborn, and when saw people mocked him showed him kindness. Did Tyrion think about her feelings when Cersei went to her rooms and basically said to her "Go marry him, or we will drag you there or perhaps even kill you"? Sansa never offended Tyrion on the basis of being a dwarf and that is kinda wrong to argue.

Tyrion never heard her. She thought of how stubborn she was. She thought of how she pitied him. She never said it. He never knew.

If someone makes a point of saying she should have let him have his way with her, call a doctor. He is a dwarf; she can and she should reject him in bed.

The bedding quotes, I tried to say that she could have said something to him. Something like "I understand" or "I'm still too young" or "My mother just died, you want me to have sex?" But, in my opinion, she couldn't have asked "What if I never want you?" to a man who just admitted to her he knows how much of a shit he is. And he isn't that much of a shit then, is he?

She didn't have to accept him. He basically asked her "So, what do you think we get to know each other better before I do anything to you? That way, at least you won't be as grossed by it as you are right now" and she just said NO, right to his face. She has suffered, yes. He has suffered too.

[Game Of Thrones]

Well, she chose to marry him over Lancel thus giving him a lifetime chance of being a Highlord... What more did she need to do?

Have sex with him. Duh.

/sarcasm

[Dya of Oldstones]

About not trusting Lannister, my argument is that he is helping her since ACOK; I find it hard to believe someone can be suspicious of a man who threatens the King in his face, just to protect her. Remember: the Hound was there too, and he did nothing until Tyrion commanded "someone" to cover Sansa. She feels more greatful towards the Hound than she does towards Tyrion. Why?

The biggest difference between Tyrion and The Hound is their agency and social rank in relation to Joffrey. The Hound could have very well ended up with his head on a spike for doing the same thing Tyrion, who is a close family member and high ranking lord did.

[Marc Stark]

There's nothing to forgive.

From Sansa's perspective; she's being forced to marry a man who is basically the exact opposite of what she dreamed her husband would be like, the marriage will result in her remaining a captive in King's Landing- a city in which she has been abused in since her father's death- for the foreseeable future. In addition to her husband's physical appearance, he is also a Lannister, part of the family that killed her father and are fighting a war against her brother. Considering the fact that she's still a young girl (thirteen by the time of the wedding, I believe) and she doesn't know Tyrion as well as we- who have gotten to know him well by reading his POV- do, I think she handled herself very well during the whole process.

In saying that, I did feel sorry for Tyrion, who genuinely seems to care for Sansa's well being, as well.

[Ser Eric]

Worthless post I see.

"He could've raped her but he chose not to. What a great guy."

Aha! I give him credit for not doing something which he was expected to do. I give him credit for not doing it even after his father commanded him to. I give him credit for not doing something which most people in his position would have done. I also give him credit for ensuring Sansa wasn't stripped in front of everyone in the Red Keep. But keep on with your bs.

Second, it wasn't rape.

[David Selig]

Tyrion never heard her. She thought of how stubborn she was. She thought of how she pitied him. She never said it. He never knew.

If someone makes a point of saying she should have let him have his way with her, call a doctor. He is a dwarf; she can and she should reject him in bed.

But if he wasn't a dwarf on the other hand...

You didn't mean it that way, I hope.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Because he was going to do it but then stopped. Simple. That he considered it is worthy of condemnation.

"He could've raped her but he chose not to. What a great guy."

Consider the world of Westeros. Consider how many little Sansas were raped in a similar situation. Consider. Tyrion was half drunk, and yet he still thought of her before thinking of himself. You want to call Tyrion a rapist? ADWD. In ASOS he was really honorable by not raping her, and I don't think he would've raped anyone back then.

[Lion of the West]

As said there's nothing to forgive. Their Houses are at war and neither Stark nor Lannister have any duty to love their enemies.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

But if he wasn't a dwarf on the other hand...

You didn't mean it that way, I hope.

It is acceptable that Sansa doesn't desire to bed a cripple, or a dwarf, or a fat man, or an old man. It is a little vain of people in general to do that, but we do have the right to desire whoever we wish to. I mean, we can choose between blondes and brunettes.

My point wasn't to say Sansa should have bedded Tyrion even if he was young Jaime. I want to discuss if she shouldn't have been friendly towards him, at least.

[LordStoneheart]

Aha! I give him credit for not doing something which he was expected to do. I give him credit for not doing it even after his father commanded him to. I give him credit for not doing something which most people in his position would have done. I also give him credit for ensuring Sansa wasn't stripped in front of everyone in the Red Keep. But keep on with your bs.

Second, it wasn't rape.

Yes it was. That is not questionable. She was forced into the marriage and did not want to have sex with him. I don't what you need to do to stretch that out of a rape context, but it's wrong. But keep on with your rape apologia and "everyone else would have" mentality. It'll serve you wonders, I'm sure.

Consider the world of Westeros. Consider how many little Sansas were raped in a similar situation. Consider. Tyrion was half drunk, and yet he still thought of her before thinking of himself. You want to call Tyrion a rapist? ADWD. In ASOS he was really honorable by not raping her, and I don't think he would've raped anyone back then.

So it's not rape because other noble girls (and boys) may have been raped too?

Honor and "not raping" someone do not go hand in hand when rape need not be considered in the first place.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

The biggest difference between Tyrion and The Hound is their agency and social rank in relation to Joffrey. The Hound could have very well ended up with his head on a spike for doing the same thing Tyrion, who is a close family member and high ranking lord did.

Joffrey did kill Eddard with his whole family yelling at him not to; As theories go, Cersei did try to poison Tyrion, and Joffrey did try to mudred Bran with a catspaw. Tyrion was just as f*cked there; the only difference is that Ilyn Payne would've killed the Hound, and some random sellsword would've killed Tyrion.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Second, it wasn't rape.

Sexual intercourse without the consent of both parties is rape. Sansa sure as hell didn't consent.

As to the OP - there is nothing to forgive. She owed him doodle squat. I was happy for her when she refused to kneel for him

[Mladen]

The bedding quotes, I tried to say that she could have said something to him. Something like "I understand" or "I'm still too young" or "My mother just died, you want me to have sex?" But, in my opinion, she couldn't have asked "What if I never want you?" to a man who just admitted to her he knows how much of a shit he is. And he isn't that much of a shit then, is he?

She didn't have to accept him. He basically asked her "So, what do you think we get to know each other better before I do anything to you? That way, at least you won't be as grossed by it as you are right now" and she just said NO, right to his face. She has suffered, yes. He has suffered too.

Again, what could she have done? Sleep with him? Leave open space for one day he could sire a son that would mean the end of her family? I mean, what do you think she should have done. Sansa didn't want to be in that marriage, so it is kinda weird expecting of her to work on the marriage she never wanted in the first place. She said to him no, because she is fully aware of what yes means.

As for Tyrion's sufferings, that day wasn't bad to him... I mean, he suddenly became in position to claim half the kingdom...

Also, Sansa's wedding happened before Red wedding.

Consider the world of Westeros. Consider how many little Sansas were raped in a similar situation. Consider. Tyrion was half drunk, and yet he still thought of her before thinking of himself. You want to call Tyrion a rapist? ADWD. In ASOS he was really honorable by not raping her, and I don't think he would've raped anyone back then.

Name me one. Beside Ramsay of course. This was unique situation, not everyday practice in Westeros. This was forced marriage, not arranged. Sansa's family didn't even have a say in this, she was threatened to be killed if not marry him.

It is acceptable that Sansa doesn't desire to bed a cripple, or a dwarf, or a fat man, or an old man. It is a little vain of people in general to do that, but we do have the right to desire whoever we wish to. I mean, we can choose between blondes and brunettes.

My point wasn't to say Sansa should have bedded Tyrion even if he was young Jaime. I want to discuss if she shouldn't have been friendly towards him, at least.

Sansa would have never bedded any of the Lannister. As to what she wanted, she was thinking about children she would have had with Willas, so she was OK having a sex with Willas.

[Narvi]

His family did just slaughter hers.

[David Selig]

It is acceptable that Sansa doesn't desire to bed a cripple, or a dwarf, or a fat man, or an old man. It is a little vain of people in general to do that, but we do have the right to desire whoever we wish to. I mean, we can choose between blondes and brunettes.

Yes, exactly, we can desire whoever we want, no matter how attractive. So why add the dwarf part? Besides, in these particular circumstances, after murdering her family, no Lannister would ever tempt Sansa that way, not even a hypothetical saintly 14 year old twin of Jaime.