Do you forgive Sansa for judging Tyrion so harshly?

[JoeyBanana]

No I won't forgive Sansa with regard to Tyrion. And here is the reason: There is really nothing to forgive. Sansa didn't do anything wrong.

This.

If anything, it's Tyrion who needs to ask for forgiveness as he went along with the marriage. It's really his own fault, had he refused, all the embarassement and shame wouldn't have occured. It speaks volumes to Sansa's kindness and level of empathy that she can still feel bad for him, despite all of what happened to her. But admittedly, it's somewhat negligible as far as giult or blame goes compared to others in this series.

On the other hand, that's about the only potential sin for Tyrion, not taking a stand against Tywin, on that issue.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is like open a can of worms. Poisoned worms.

Ok, we know Tyrion is not what we could call a "bad man". He's definitely not Joffrey. And we have both of their point of views. Fact is that Sansa is a child, and Tyrion is kinda creepy for her, but, he didn't lie when he said he was kind to those who are loyal to him. But Sansa has no way to know this: every Lannister she has known so far has lied to her and mistreat her and her family. Why would she believe Tyrion?

[Chebyshov]

When was she extensively rude to him? When she was forced to marry him, when she was facing a rape or when she was mourning her family who was slaughtered by Tyrion's family? And again, what is the case for her being so rude? When did this even happen?

:bowdown:

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I adore these thread... Especially the implied "she should have widened her legs and allowed him to rape her"... Never grows old.

Simply, why should she be any better to him? Not to mention that Sansa hasn't been rude to Tyrion AT ANY GIVEN POINT, other than expressing her rejection at the wedding in rather Northern kind a way - not kneeling. Let we forget that Tyrion won a lottery with the Sansa, that he did have a choice not to marry her (otherwise the whole Lancel offer is one huge BS hypocrisy). When she saw how humiliated Tyrion is, she kneeled and kissed him, and that is much more than he deserved.

When was she extensively rude to him? When she was forced to marry him, when she was facing a rape or when she was mourning her family who was slaughtered by Tyrion's family? And again, what is the case for her being so rude? When did this even happen?

This. A Thousand times. Not to mention, after the marriage, Tyrion's family goes on to plot and murder the death of Sansa's entire family. How was she supposed to be nice after that? Also, the whole "Tyrion was in a similar position" is just BS. Tyrion's position was far better than Sansa, who lost pretty much everything.

[Minsc]

No I won't forgive Sansa with regard to Tyrion. And here is the reason: There is really nothing to forgive. Sansa didn't do anything wrong.

This, I don't forgive her as there is nothing to forgive

If anything the question should be do we forgive Tyrion

[Game Of Thrones]

On the other hand, that's about the only potential sin for Tyrion, not taking a stand against Tywin, on that issue.

Well, he raped a prostitute.

[Mal Malenkirk]

First of all, she isn't harsh toward Tyrion. Just cold and distant.

I understand that she doesn't have to love him, and I completely agree with her sexual rejection towards him. I mean, men can choose who they want to bed, why can't women? My point is, she is excessively rude to him, like she'd be with Joffrey. She could have been friendly towards him, at least, but she kept her armor on.

And she damn well had to.

She learned first hand not to trust a seemingly kind Lannister. Both Cersei and Joffrey seemed kind at some point, she trusted them and got badly burnt.

The bottom line is that Tyrion is a loyal soldier for his family, at that point. She should lower her guard because third time's the charm? That's a lark.

We do know Tyrion is no Cersei so you conclude she was wrong to keep her guard up. But Tyrion is no saint either. He's bad with women and hindsight showed us it was indeed the best course of action for her not to get too close.

Tyrion craves affection, especially from women, and is quite able to miscontrue it into something more. He killed Shae for it. The poor girl is plucked out amongst camp followers (as prostitution goes, being a camp follower is pretty awful btw), he gives her money and hope for future and he basically tell him to giver the 'GFE'. She does and somehow Tyrion progressively lose sight of the fact she is doing what he is asking and paying for and so when she 'betrays' him, he kills her. That was a hugely dick move.

My point is, if Sansa had been just a little friendly to Tyrion, he'd probably soon have deluded himself into thinking it's love and might have gone all Shakespearean on her when she 'betrayed' him afterward. So yeah girls, keep your distance from Tyrion. He has his upsides, but he's more dangerous than he looks.

[aryagonnakill#2]

LMAO We should forgive Tyrion for being as nice as possible, ya you guys are objective.

[Dya of Oldstones]

No I won't forgive Sansa with regard to Tyrion. And here is the reason: There is really nothing to forgive. Sansa didn't do anything wrong.

My thoughts exactly and congratz! This is now the most quoted quote in the thread. :bowdown:

I do think she has always appreciated his kindness toward her, but he's still a Lannister.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

I adore these thread... Especially the implied "she should have widened her legs and allowed him to rape her"... Never grows old.

Simply, why should she be any better to him? Not to mention that Sansa hasn't been rude to Tyrion AT ANY GIVEN POINT, other than expressing her rejection at the wedding in rather Northern kind a way - not kneeling. Let we forget that Tyrion won a lottery with the Sansa, that he did have a choice not to marry her (otherwise the whole Lancel offer is one huge BS hypocrisy). When she saw how humiliated Tyrion is, she kneeled and kissed him, and that is much more than he deserved.

When was she extensively rude to him? When she was forced to marry him, when she was facing a rape or when she was mourning her family who was slaughtered by Tyrion's family? And again, what is the case for her being so rude? When did this even happen?

She shouldn't have let him rape her! I never said that, I never implied that, and I said, more than once, that I agree with her not wanting to bed him.

All I said is: She was, and you will have to agree with me, she was excessively rude with Tyrion, and Tyrion alone.

I can't believe I'm having to say this, but well: I agree with Sansa not wanting to bed him. I agree with Sansa being completely heartbroken because of the RW, and I agree that Tyrion is one lucky bastard. But there was no need, at all, to make Tyrion be humiliated in front of Joffrey, who both of them hated.

Afterwards, in the dance, she is UNINTENTIONALLY rude towards Tyrion. Am I writing this word right? As in, no intention to? She was unintentionally rude, as every fat man can tell you.

I, myself, have lived with such rudeness my entire life, and there is no need to be a dwarf to experience it. I was fat when I was a kid, and every time there was a school dance or anything like that, I could see the shame and the hate in the eyes of the girl dancing with me. It is not good, I tell you. Now, imagine that same situation in your marriage, having your bride look at you with so much disgust and hate, and everyone in the church laughing histerically at you. When I re-read this scene, I felt everything Tyrion felt. Sansa has all the right to hate the Lannisters, but she could have been at least a little more friendly towards him.

If you think that there is nothing to forgive, that's well and good. But, in my humble opinion, she could have been a little less cold towards him. My opinion. My opinion.

And please, I never said she should have lt him rape her; seriously, inciting rape is a crime. I never did that. If it even looks like I did it, I'm sorry. I didn't. She is right not to want him in her bed; I am questioning her treatment towards him when they aren't in bed.

[David Selig]

Forgive? There's nothing to forgive. Unless you are such an extreme Tyrion fan you've lost all perspective on the issue. She treated Tyrion way better than she should've. He's lucky she didn't cut his throat while he slept. Like the OP. Case in point:

We saw this marriage from Sansa's eyes, and it has made everyone so overwhelmingly pitied towards her. If we saw this through Tyrion, we'd cry more in this chapter than in the RW one. Seriously.

I can't even...

[Pod The Impaler]

Here, Tyrion offers her Lancel(not a bad choice as Lannisters go, since even Cersei wanted a bit of him; but, if we're talking of personalities, he really is a bad choice.)

... Why so much hate towards Tyrion, then?

Before I'm made to hear the same argument a hundred times, I'll state it here, already: Sansa has the right to hate every single Lannister in the earth ...

Tyrion was, once again, humiliated in front of everyone, and by the one person he thought would be his partner in the fight against the "bad" Lannisters.

Another unintentional example of salt in Tyrion's wounds. Unintentional, but still.

How can she not look at him at least a little bit more tenderly after this?

We saw this marriage from Sansa's eyes, and it has made everyone so overwhelmingly pitied towards her. If we saw this through Tyrion, we'd cry more in this chapter than in the RW one. Seriously.

Sansa's role is one of prisoner, and whatever arrangements were made for her were forced upon her by her family's enemies - there is no doubt of this. Truly, if she got what she actually wanted, it would be to flee from any and all Lannisters, and back into the "safe" arms of her family & home.

She clings to the Willas idea, maybe disappointed that it's the crippled brother not the dashing young Loras, but even this is mostly a dream based in the idea of escape.

(And when she realizes they want to takeover her claim, not engineer her rescue, she thinks differently about the Tyrells too.)

By this point in the story she's come to understand that Tyrion is perhaps the least hostile of all her Lannister captors, and inclined to protect her from Joffrey, but he is still on their side.

Tyrion is still a Lannister, fighting for the evil Lannister king and his evil parent(s) and evil grandparent.

Sansa (or anyone) would have to be blind to believe that these Lannisters all get along wonderfully - clearly, there are some deep grudges going on. But when push comes to shove, she cannot count any of them as being truly on her side as long as they are Lannisters.

Sansa instinctively has some pity for Tyrion, but this is just the tip of the iceberg she is seeing. Sansa is not privy to Tyrions incredibly awful upbringing; she cannot fathom what it is like to be a dwarf and scorned by all women as less than a man (including her). The additional blame and sadistic abuse visited upon Tyrion by his own family would be appalling to her. The Tysha story alone would have her throwing herself from a tower window rather than even risk marrying him.

We see this, so we can understand how deep Tyrion's humilation goes - Sansa doesn't / can't. So I cannot blame her. What is she going to do, want him? Love him?

From Tyrion's perspective: Sansa's rejection of him is very hurtful, but basically more of the same hurt he's been experiencing his whole life; Sansa's rejection was not more cruel, and if there was an element of cruelty to it, it was his own family that was responsible: she is beautiful and pure, but on top of the fact you are always going to be a scarred-up dwarf, you family and hers are mortal foes. Basically, your family has arranged that for the sake of the war, you should rape a beautiful, pure, and innocent young maid, and call it a "marriage". Your family does not think this is even a "joy" you deserve to have, but they also expect you to commit this monstrous act because a monster is what you are, and why not ? You've done it for House Lannister before, and even a whore could never truly want you as a man.

From Sansa's perspective: It's like all the dreams she had of a happy loving marriage to a man she desires are being not just destroyed, but mocked too. A marriage at sword point, to one of her captors. Kind as he might be, foe of Joffrey that he might be, she gets to be bedded by a dwarf with some sort of deep-seated angst or something, for the rest of her life, knowing that in her womb shall grow the means by which Winterfell will fall into the hands of her familiy's enemies. If Tyrion was really kind or on her side, he would be acting as her rescuer not trying to act her husband.

The sad, stupid thing here, is how they are each one of the few people who appreciates the other as a person. They should not be enemies, but circumstances made them enemies. Both tried being the good little supporter of their house, and this miserable situation is what it has come down to. They both have to just try to deal with it as best they can, but they'd love to negate all of it if they could.

Yeah.

Even Tyrion doesn't take it all that personally.

No, I don't think Tyrion takes her attitude too personally. It hurts, but he told himself the truth about her many times - she is dutiful, obedient, but will forever be cold and wish she was somewhere else. Even after she escapes from King's Landing and he is put on trial, I don't think he expected her to be loyal to him or anything. It's sad for him to be left behind to die, but understandable.

[Minsc]

Afterwards, in the dance, she is UNINTENTIONALLY rude towards Tyrion. Am I writing this word right? As in, no intention to? She was unintentionally rude, as every fat man can tell you. .

I still fail to see how asking him to dance is rude.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

First of all, she isn't harsh toward Tyrion. Just cold and distant.

Well, Catelyn wasn't harsh to Jon(except for that one time with Bran, and all, but that's another time), she was just cold and distant. And yet, 50% of the people love her for it, and 50% hate her. Being cold and distant can be interpretated as harsh, as it can be interpretated as just "cold". Depends on the person.

And she damn well had to.

She learned first hand not to trust a seemingly kind Lannister. Both Cersei and Joffrey seemed kind at some point, she trusted them and got badly burnt.

The bottom line is that Tyrion is a loyal soldier for his family, at that point. She should lower her guard because third time's the charm? That's a lark.

We do know Tyrion is no Cersei so you conclude she was wrong to keep her guard up. But Tyrion is no saint either. He's bad with women and hindsight showed us it was indeed the best course of action for her not to get too close.

Tyrion craves affection, especially from women, and is quite able to miscontrue it into something more. He killed Shae for it. The poor girl is plucked out amongst camp followers (as prostitution goes, being a camp follower is pretty awful btw), he gives her money and hope for future and he basically tell him to giver the 'GFE'. She does and somehow Tyrion progressively lose sight of the fact she is doing what he is asking and paying for and so when she 'betrays' him, he kills her. That was a hugely dick move.

My point is, if Sansa had been just a little friendly to Tyrion, he'd probably soon have deluded himself into thinking it's love and might have gone all Shakespearean on her when she 'betrayed' him afterward. So yeah girls, keep your distance from Tyrion. He has his upsides, but he's more dangerous than he looks.

I don't agree with the Shae part, but as the point here is not that, I won't discuss you further.

About not trusting Lannister, my argument is that he is helping her since ACOK; I find it hard to believe someone can be suspicious of a man who threatens the King in his face, just to protect her. Remember: the Hound was there too, and he did nothing until Tyrion commanded "someone" to cover Sansa. She feels more greatful towards the Hound than she does towards Tyrion. Why?

[LordStoneheart]

There's nothing to forgive. She could've stabbed him through his dead eye with a dagger and I wouldn't put it past her.

Do I forgive Tyrion for forcibly marrying her, scaring her, molesting her, and deciding not to rape her? well, that's a much better question.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

I still fail to see how asking him to dance is rude.

It's like asking ADWD Theon to dance. Tyrion can't dance. He has stunted legs, and he can't hold Sansa by the hand and guide her, like the dance would need.

[Mladen]

She shouldn't have let him rape her! I never said that, I never implied that, and I said, more than once, that I agree with her not wanting to bed him.

All I said is: She was, and you will have to agree with me, she was excessively rude with Tyrion, and Tyrion alone.

I can't believe I'm having to say this, but well: I agree with Sansa not wanting to bed him. I agree with Sansa being completely heartbroken because of the RW, and I agree that Tyrion is one lucky bastard. But there was no need, at all, to make Tyrion be humiliated in front of Joffrey, who both of them hated.

Afterwards, in the dance, she is UNINTENTIONALLY rude towards Tyrion. Am I writing this word right? As in, no intention to? She was unintentionally rude, as every fat man can tell you.

I, myself, have lived with such rudeness my entire life, and there is no need to be a dwarf to experience it. I was fat when I was a kid, and every time there was a school dance or anything like that, I could see the shame and the hate in the eyes of the girl dancing with me. It is not good, I tell you. Now, imagine that same situation in your marriage, having your bride look at you with so much disgust and hate, and everyone in the church laughing histerically at you. When I re-read this scene, I felt everything Tyrion felt. Sansa has all the right to hate the Lannisters, but she could have been at least a little more friendly towards him.

If you think that there is nothing to forgive, that's well and good. But, in my humble opinion, she could have been a little less cold towards him. My opinion. My opinion.

And please, I never said she should have lt him rape her; seriously, inciting rape is a crime. I never did that. If it even looks like I did it, I'm sorry. I didn't. She is right not to want him in her bed; I am questioning her treatment towards him when they aren't in bed.

Well, you basically listed their wedding night as one of the examples where Sansa was rude to Tyrion. Logically, the only way she could have been "less rude" is to allow him to rape her. Plain and simple.

Now, I didn't say you have been inciting a rape, but when you choose to exemplify this, you leave space for people wondering what you meant. And trust me, arguing that she should have slept with Tyrion isn't a new argument.

Also, when did Sansa insulted Tyrion solely based on the fact that he is dwarf? She even reproached herself for being stubborn, and when saw people mocked him showed him kindness. Did Tyrion think about her feelings when Cersei went to her rooms and basically said to her "Go marry him, or we will drag you there or perhaps even kill you"? Sansa never offended Tyrion on the basis of being a dwarf and that is kinda wrong to argue.

[Game Of Thrones]

There's nothing to forgive. She could've stabbed him through his dead eye with a dagger and I wouldn't put it past her.

Do I forgive Tyrion for forcibly marrying her, scaring her, molesting her, and deciding not to rape her? well, that's a much better question.

Why is deciding not to rape Sansa an act that must be "forgiven"?

[Ser Eric]

Do I forgive Tyrion for forcibly marrying her, scaring her, molesting her, and deciding not to rape her? well, that's a much better question.

Objective posting I see... :rolleyes:

[Chebyshov]

This thread.

So the instances of Sansa being "excessively rude" are the not-kneeling thing, and then asking her husband to dance? She was a political prisoner forced into a marriage. She had no recourse. By not kneeling, it was the only bit of defiance she demonstrated, her only way of rejecting the proceedings. Kneeling would be embarrassing and degrading for her, and she was trying to keep some small bit of self-respect. Yet once realizing his feelings were hurt, she acted compassionately and accordingly: "Suddenly she was ashamed of her stubbornness. She smoothed her skirts and knelt in front of him, so their heads were on the same level."

The unintentional rudeness is another topic in and of itself. I don't really fault her for laying her hand on her husband's and asking him to dance on their wedding, despite the fact she didn't want it and was close to tears a second before.

About not trusting Lannister, my argument is that he is helping her since ACOK; I find it hard to believe someone can be suspicious of a man who threatens the King in his face, just to protect her. Remember: the Hound was there too, and he did nothing until Tyrion commanded "someone" to cover Sansa. She feels more greatful towards the Hound than she does towards Tyrion. Why?

Yet Tyrion told her it was his intention to send her to her mother and that didn't pan out, so he's lied to her. He is still a Lannister, even if he's no Joffrey. This is why she allows the wedding to go through, rather than demanding to marry Lancel (who is fairer of face and with whom she had a vaguely nice moment during BW).