Non-Monogamy

[Gillio]

Also, I think it would be awesome if this thread did not get overrun with a bunch of monogamists dominating the conversation stating their opinions of non-monogamy. The more you talk, the less you (and others who might be curious) will learn about a world that is currently beyond your ken. And that would be kinda sad for everyone.

I'd just like to add my thanks. Its a very interesting subject. I'm glad we get this chance to appreciate that world!

[Xray the Enforcer]

Re: Xray

I want to springboard off of this and add that for each relationship, there's always give-and-take. For me, it is the overall balance that makes it worthwhile for us to stay in a relationship, whether that's in a monogamous or non-monogamous relationship. I think bisexual people get a similar type of questioning when they are staying in a sexually exclusive relationship with one person. The question is frequently "are you sure you're satisified in this relationship when you cannot have sex with men/women"? While my husband and I were monogamous, I did feel that there were parts of my sexuality that I had no access to, but it doesn't mean I found the relationship unsatisfactory, or that it was subpar. It was still good and rewarding. Adding non-monogamy simply makes it better.

Re: Slurms

I agree that non-monogamy is probably not the best option for many, probably most, people. But I also suspect that the arrangement will suit more people than we are seeing now becuase the people who are likely to flourish under this arrangement are typically unable to attempt it in any meaningful way.

In this, I see a significant parallel to homosexuality and bisexuality. I don't think most people are gay or bi, but I think there are more gay and bi people than what we see now simply because so many who might be never have the social freedom to discover it. If we think, for instance, that the social pressure to be straight is immense in the U.S. culture, how much more intense must the pressure to be monogamous be? Honestly, if I hadn't been primarily attracted to members of the same sex and hang around so many gay people, I probably wouldn't have come to the point of embracing non-monogamy either.

I think the concept of "intended norm" is very problematic as it begs the question of the existence of a universal ideal, or a designer of some sort. I accept that there is statistical norm, and heterosexual monogamy will be the normative phenotype amongst humans. But I am not sure the "intended" part is justified in this case. I also don't see why the existence of jealousy is seen as some kind of counter-argument against non-monogamy. At least, no more than infidelity is a counter-argument against monogamy. People are jealous and people cheat, because we have monkey brains. The configuration of the relationship can enhance or diffuse the propensity of these behaviors, but these traits exist regardless of the number of people in a relationship.

Apologies for the above wall of quote.

Terra -- your response to me really crystallizes something I was trying to get at, but didn't quite get there due to time constraints and other factors. But, yes, you are absolutely correct. I am (and have been) very happy in my current relationship, which has been monogamous for more than a decade. When we first started dating seriously, we talked about how we'd structure our relationship, and monogamy ended up the best choice. But I was honest with my misgivings of that system during those discussions, because if you cannot be honest with your partner about something like that, you have no business being in a serious relationship with them in the first place. Lucky for me, Mr. X is an amazing individual, and we have built a relationship where we're secure enough that we can have these discussions without someone feeling threatened. [ETA: all of the above, I've discussed openly in the past (on this board, even), so it doesn't fall under the privacy stricture.]

Also agreed with your response re: monogamy being a huge oppressive umbrella that keeps lots of non-monogamists in the closet. The pressure to present as monogamous is massive. I am out and proudly queer pretty much everywhere: work, my family, friends, etc. This thread is the first time I've ever talked about my personal stake re: non-monogamy with someone who wasn't a very close friend. In fact, I think there are now five friends in my city who know: the spouse, one friend in this thread, one friend from work, one friend from METAL, and one friend who is married to my other friend. It's partly because me being queer affects only my privacy, whereas non-monogamy necessarily also airs a slice of the partner's private life. But there's also the stigma associated with non-monogamy, which tends to trigger others' insecurities (no, I am not trying to steal your partner) or creep-modules (no, I don't want to sleep with you, please stop pestering me). And, yeah, fully agreed on jealousy being a poor reason to discount non-monogamy.

Lily -- hahahaha. So, lesbians in the US tend to drive Subarus, and non-monogamous women in the US tend to own tarot sets. It's A Thing! :lol:

Terra -- I'd also be curious (if you're willing to share) how you and Mr. T navigated from monogamy to non-monogamy, and some of the issues that came up during the transition.

[Lord Toblerone]

This thread has been a really interesting read, thanks all. I have a friend who I have observed is very unhappy in monogamous relationships and often blames herself for not being able to commit to them fully or feeling like shit because she doesn't feel happy in monogamous relationships and she thinks that means something is wrong with her. I am not sure she is even aware of polyamory or has genuinely given ethical non-monogamy a thought (I dont think a lot of people even consider anything BUT monogamy being the 'legit' type of relationship) I will broach this subject to her next time she is upset. :)

Theda, maybe your friend might find this helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VKGRrOzMDg&list=UUkxMlA7rt-mnIc1AjbyAsPw

My understanding of polyamory is built on a woman I know online and, for her relationship at least, it seems to be pretty much anything goes as long as everyone involved is fully aware and fully comfortable with the situation.

She has also explained how she isn't really attracted to people until she gets to know them so she isn't a casual hook-up kinda person.

[Mauvka]

Terra -- I'd also be curious (if you're willing to share) how you and Mr. T navigated from monogamy to non-monogamy, and some of the issues that came up during the transition.

I'm very curious about this as well!

Also, how closely did the rules and boundaries you expected to have match up with reality once things were open? I wonder how closely one can ever really predict what they will or will not be comfortable with.

[Arkhangel]

Kal - it could be read that way, certainly. Alternately, he could have said "screw what they think, I'm my own person." Which is where I thought he was going, because our agreement was no condoms for us, but condoms with everyone else.

Doesn't matter, since he's over, and re-hashing the specific pain he caused me by his thoughtless insensitivity isn't going to do more than jab me with that hurt one more time.

I'm just taking my lessons learned and moving on.

I hesitate to bring this up, but... how sure are you that he was adhering to that agreement? Given that he didn't tell you about Jen for months even though she seems to be his main girlfriend and has been for some time, given that you know he's still not telling his other girlfriends about Jen because he doesn't want their reactions - this is clearly a guy who doesn't mind bending the truth to get what he wants, and apparently didn't take your relationship as seriously as you did. It might maybe possibly be worth getting tested again, just in case.

[daskool]

Re: daskool

Of all the non-monogamous relationships I know of, there is no such case as "fuck whoever you feel like" going on. I'm sure there are non-monogamous relationships where this is true, but they are more rare than vampire unicorns far as I can tell.

So what's the deal? You need permission from your spouse(s) before you fuck someone? If he/she says no it's off? Not that I'm a cynic or anything, but all the talk that it's not just about the fucking isn't really washing. No one person can fulfill me emotionally? Fair enough that's why we have friends. So yeah it's about not being bound to fucking one person your whole life but still having the security of a spouse and home. Fair enough if you have someone who's on the same wavelength, would suck to be the partner who's forced to go along for the ride though.

Be fascinating to here from folk who are non monogamous for religious reasons.

[daskool]

Terra, most of mine have been "fuck whoever you want" with lines drawn about disclosure where social crossover was was an issue.

I will grant you that I do not have your success rate in terms of the years of continuity with a primary partner. My LTR's seem to be with the peripheral players.

Perhaps "fuck whoever you want" relationships are fledglings.

X-ray,

Hahahahaha! I have a deck somewhere in the house, but I haven't read for years. People never liked my readings. I ain't no spindoctor and The Truth sucks most of the time. I leave it for those with the gift of gab.

I've found this whole discussion really interesting but I'll be honest and say I've got no idea what the main theme is. Polygamous relationships especially polyandrous women? Or married people that like to swing? I know a lot of the latter not so many of the former. I'll be honest and say not many of the swinging couples I've met over the years had what you'd call happy or successful relationships, mostly one partner (usually the dude) bullying the other into going along with it, and of course them only telling you how unhappy they were after they split. But polygamy is a different thing, and something I know next to nothing about.

[Lily Valley]

Herm.

I've found this whole discussion really interesting but I'll be honest and say I've got no idea what the main theme is. Polygamous relationships especially polyandrous women?

Terra, you have been completely ignored. Perhaps a board first.

[daskool]

Herm.

Terra, you have been completely ignored. Perhaps a board first.

No I get Terra was talking about her experience, my question wasn't actually addressed to her, so stop being a condescending jerk K?

It's not swinging or polygamy.

Google "polyamory". There has got to be a Wikipedia page.

Thanks..

[kairparavel]

No I get Terra was talking about her experience, my question wasn't actually addressed to her, so stop being a condescending jerk K?

Thanks..

Terra is a dude, dude.

[daskool]

Terra is a dude, dude.

my bad him then

[Lily Valley]

No I get Terra was talking about her experience, my question wasn't actually addressed to her, so stop being a condescending jerk K?

Thanks..

Daskool, my apologies if I appeared condescending.

/

I didn't realize there was some confusion on Terra's gender. I was actually delighted that you had totally ignored the only male poster in the thread. Especially such an articulate poster. Women are often ignored in discussions like this one.

I think the overall theme will define itself before post 400. I'm really enjoying the opportunity to listen to other people who have / will / are participating in relationships that are non-monogamous by choice. I think we all know relationships that were non-monogamous without choice (cheating).

For some of us the monogamy model feels like a stranglehold. There are a lot of different ways to change that monogamy model and I have used several. All of them were better for me than monogamy.

If you have any specific questions we'll be happy to answer as long as they aren't going to violate the privacy of our relationships too much. If they do, we'll just tell you. I for one will not be offended by any questions you have as long as they are inspired by genuine curiosity.

Again. Sorry for being flip.

[Galactus]

It's not swinging or polygamy.

Google "polyamory". There has got to be a Wikipedia page.

Well, technically polygamy (be it polyandry or polygny) is a subset of polyamory, but yes, they're not the same thing. (Swinging is also arguably a subset of polyamory)

[Xray the Enforcer]

Yes. Swinging would be a subset of polyamory (in TPs monster post, he put it under "open relationships.")

And, yes, we are not talking about polygamy/polygyny. That is probably best put into another thread, because none of us are in a place to practice it and I do not want this thread to devolve into pointless bickering about the laws regarding same. You want to fight about that, please make another thread. :)

[daskool]

Daskool, my apologies if I appeared condescending.

/

I didn't realize there was some confusion on Terra's gender. I was actually delighted that you had totally ignored the only male poster in the thread. Especially such an articulate poster. Women are often ignored in discussions like this one.

I think the overall theme will define itself before post 400. I'm really enjoying the opportunity to listen to other people who have / will / are participating in relationships that are non-monogamous by choice. I think we all know relationships that were non-monogamous without choice (cheating).

For some of us the monogamy model feels like a stranglehold. There are a lot of different ways to change that monogamy model and I have used several. All of them were better for me than monogamy.

If you have any specific questions we'll be happy to answer as long as they aren't going to violate the privacy of our relationships too much. If they do, we'll just tell you. I for one will not be offended by any questions you have as long as they are inspired by genuine curiosity.

Again. Sorry for being flip.

I was simply asking a question, but no probs at all. And I had no idea Terra was a dude, call it hetero bias if you want, and the fact I've never actually met him, or engaged him in any kind of conversation. Besides I wasn't actually asking Terra anything but another poster who seemed, and I'm likely wrong, to be describing more of an open marriage/swinging type arrangement.

I'll go back to being an interested observer from now on :)

[Xray the Enforcer]

Posting a link to this, because a number of these questions were addressed by TP earlier in the thread:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117275-non-monogamy/?p=6241037

I will also say that, with respect to the anecdote that all of daskool's swinging friends were unhappy because one partner bullied the other, ANY relationship that involves bullying and coercion is de facto unhappy. We're not talking about coercion in this thread and on this topic, but about good-faith negotiations.

And, just FYI for any other board neophytes (and therefore not familiar with regular posters) reading and who think that it's usually dudes who push for polyamory: IIRC, TerraPrime is thus far the only male in this thread to admit to being in a non-monogamous relationship. Every other poster who has come clean about it is female. Some are married (same sex or hetero), others are in LTRs (same sex or hetero), and some are just at the dating phase.

[Xray the Enforcer]

So what's the deal? You need permission from your spouse(s) before you fuck someone? If he/she says no it's off?

For some, yes. And, if one has a good relationship and isn't a gigantic shitbird, one would honor the request. At the same time, one would have to trust that the other partner was withholding permission for good-faith reasons, rather than for petty reasons or for control. That's why non-monogamy can be difficult to navigate -- each partner has to trust the other that they're doing (or not doing) things for good-faith reasons. But it's possible and I've seen this arrangement work out more than once. But it only really works if the primary relationship is rock-solid and based upon mutual trust/regard.

Not every relationship is like that, though. Some are don't ask, don't tell. Some are strictly the primary pair having sex with a third person. Etc. The permutations are numerous, and each couple has to figure out their boundaries.

[Lily Valley]

One of my previous partners and I didn't use permissions, but we had an "off limits list". We were involved in the same social circle and there were a few people in that circle that I didn't like and didn't want them involved in my relationship even casually and second hand.

He has a fairly high profile in the New Orleans downtown hipster bar scene (if you can imagine that such a douchey thing exists, I promise it's just as douchey as it sounds). He throws parties and MC's. He is also fairly popular and well liked. This puts him in the line of sight of a lot of people who had just moved to the city and wanted to make connections. Some of those people were openly rude and hostile towards me. my requests that they stay out of his bed were all honored.

That was a tough relationship. Because he was so open and so public, our relationship became neighborhood gossip. I received weekly calls from well-meaning neighbors reporting his "bad" behavior. It was touching that people didn't want to see me being disrespected, but irritating that I had to have such personal conversations with people I didn't know that well. I can certainly see why most non-monogamous people would prefer to allow everyone to think they had a more traditional relationship.

It's a shame really, that it takes the (relative) anonymity of the internet to be able to have these types of conversations. I really appreciate everyone's honesty.

X-ray, Which deck do you have?

[Kalbear]

It's interesting to me that so many of the customs for successful nonmonogamous relationships are also very similar to the customs for successful BDSM relationships. Probably because the clear, explicit requirements for communication and values stem from both not being traditionally culturally accepted relationship types and thus could have cultural baggage and misinterpretation unless being very explicit about intents and actual desires.

I suspect that this is one of the most important things for both types of relationships: you must be very, very clear in what you actually want and not what you think you want. Most people do not have that kind of honest knowledge in what they desire - or what they don't desire.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kalbear,

I suspect that this is one of the most important things for both types of relationships: you must be very, very clear in what you actually want and not what you think you want. Most people do not have that kind of honest knowledge in what they desire - or what they don't desire.

That's an interesting observation. One of the things that i do that bothers me (about myself) is have a discussion with my wife about an issue decide I'm fine with a particular course of action and then find myself put out and irritated with the decision. It is incredibly unfair to my wife but it happens.