Parwan Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Dany is not a trained sorcerer. She can't make magic work on demand, in the way that Melisandre does. She may or may not have that ability, but it's latent, if it exists.But, there seems no doubt that she has performed magic, and had all manner of supernatural events happen to her, and because of her.The Mother of The Others once put the matter well--Dany is a magic savant. We're at the end of this series of threads, so I suppose I can go off subject a little ways. Were the Valyrians trained sorcerers? It seems plausible to say that this was so. Why would their knowledge of magic be limited to the care, feeding, and control of dragons? Of course, it could have been the case that the empire simply had sorcerers. That wouldn't necessarily mean that the rulers were practitioners of the art. I don't know the backstory well enough. Is there any authoritative info on this matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Are we allowed to talk about the World book here (with spoilers?) There was a tidbit that came out that might be relevant to Dany and her magic/abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Are we allowed to talk about the World book here (with spoilers?) There was a tidbit that came out that might be relevant to Dany and her magic/abilities.I think we can as long as we use the spoiler tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Alrighty then. World Book spoilers below! Click at your own risk According to the World Book Aegon V married a Blackwood and all of his children are product of that union (I think). So Dany has blood of the First Men--if a few generations back. It's the same blood as BR (again, I know many generations in passing). So it might help us understand why Dany has some magic and perhaps why she has relationships with animals like dragons and her horse. Or it could mean nothing. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 The Mother of The Others once put the matter well--Dany is a magic savant. We're at the end of this series of threads, so I suppose I can go off subject a little ways. Were the Valyrians trained sorcerers? It seems plausible to say that this was so. Why would their knowledge of magic be limited to the care, feeding, and control of dragons? Of course, it could have been the case that the empire simply had sorcerers. That wouldn't necessarily mean that the rulers were practitioners of the art. I don't know the backstory well enough. Is there any authoritative info on this matter? I believe GRRM stated in an interview that Valyrians used fire-magic so I don't think they were limited to using dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 While not directly related to Dany (or maybe it will turn out to be, its one theory out there) I would like to make a mention of something in the WOIAF that I feel MOIAF should be told. Spoilers of course: Maester Yandel seems to offer more evidence for the idea that AAR, The Last Hero etc. etc. are one and the same, as interpreted by different cultures. Bravo, ma'am. Unless I am mistaken you are one of the supporters of this idea :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 While not directly related to Dany (or maybe it will turn out to be, its one theory out there) I would like to make a mention of something in the WOIAF that I feel MOIAF should be told. Spoilers of course: Maester Yandel seems to offer more evidence for the idea that AAR, The Last Hero etc. etc. are one and the same, as interpreted by different cultures. Bravo, ma'am. Unless I am mistaken you are one of the supporters of this idea :thumbsup: Hehe :blush: Thank you. :DI just got the book today so I haven't gotten there yet but I'm glad to see that I was in the right path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Alrighty then. World Book spoilers below! Click at your own risk According to the World Book Aegon V married a Blackwood and all of his children are product of that union (I think). So Dany has blood of the First Men--if a few generations back. It's the same blood as BR (again, I know many generations in passing). So it might help us understand why Dany has some magic and perhaps why she has relationships with animals like dragons and her horse. Or it could mean nothing. :dunno: Also considering that the next two generations after Egg married Betha Blackwood were brother and sister marriages then the "blood" stayed pretty concentrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 The Mother of The Others once put the matter well--Dany is a magic savant. We're at the end of this series of threads, so I suppose I can go off subject a little ways. Were the Valyrians trained sorcerers? It seems plausible to say that this was so. Why would their knowledge of magic be limited to the care, feeding, and control of dragons? Of course, it could have been the case that the empire simply had sorcerers. That wouldn't necessarily mean that the rulers were practitioners of the art. I don't know the backstory well enough. Is there any authoritative info on this matter? IIRC, there's a quote that "all the works of Valyria reeked of sorcery.". Also, the World Book suggests their wizards used magic to prevent volcanic explosions across Valyria, and were assassinated by Faceless Men Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 The Mother of The Others once put the matter well--Dany is a magic savant. We're at the end of this series of threads, so I suppose I can go off subject a little ways. Were the Valyrians trained sorcerers? It seems plausible to say that this was so. Why would their knowledge of magic be limited to the care, feeding, and control of dragons? Of course, it could have been the case that the empire simply had sorcerers. That wouldn't necessarily mean that the rulers were practitioners of the art. I don't know the backstory well enough. Is there any authoritative info on this matter? What SeanF said. They controlled the power of the volcanoes with their sorcery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 The Parallel Journey of Danenerys Stormborn & ... UPDATE - 11/11/14 - SCHEDULE!!!!Dany and Arya - BearQueen87Essay I - January 4, 2015Essay II - January 11, 2015Essay III - January 18, 2015Dany and Arianne (mini parallel) - Queen AlysanneEssay I - January 25, 2014Dany and Bran - Queen Alysanne / MoIaFEssay I - February 1, 2015Essay II - February 8, 2015Essay III - February 15, 2015Dany and Cersei - SeanF / Suzanna Stormbirn / JonCon's Red BeardEssay I - February 22, 2015Essay II - March 1, 2015Essay III - March 8, 2015 Dany and Jon - MoIaFEssay I - March 15, 2015Essay II - March 22, 2015Essay III - March 29, 2015Dany and Ned - ParwanEssay I - April 5, 2015Essay II - April 12, 2015Essay III - April 19, 2015Dany and Sansa - KyoshiEssay I - April 26, 2015Essay II - May 3, 2015Essay III - Mary 10, 2015Dany and Stannis (mini parallel) - QueenAlysanneEssay I - May 17, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 /o/ I'm half finished with mine... I can go out and play /o/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I believe GRRM stated in an interview that Valyrians used fire-magic so I don't think they were limited to using dragons. One interpretation of the Valyria section is that they needed slaves, not just to labour for them, but to make their spells work, by feeding them to the flames.The Qhorik apparently can still forge Valyrian steel, but need to sacrifice slaves and criminals to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 /o/ I'm half finished with mine... I can go out and play /o/ Braggart. :-P My first essay is done as well, though heaven knows it could probably use a good editing. My fingers may fall off from the amount of typing I've been doing lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 From TWOIAF Dragons, Change and Reform After reading the WOIAF, it solidified my understanding of the thematic view of dragons within the story and Dany herself. By reading Egg's reign it made me see how strongly connected the two charaters are especially when attention is paid particularly to Dany's arc in ADWD. Based off the re-read we know Dany's main aim to rule Mereen was to prevent her freedmen from being enslaved again, solidify a "no slavery" law in Meereen and for her Freed Men to actually become "free". However it was more harder than she expected since the Mereenese nobles disliked their tradition being destroyed and disliked the idea of Freed men rising to the same social status as themselves. The Mereenese thus restorted to murders known as the "Harpy's killings" and this forced Dany to make compromise after compromise concluding in a peace she was never comfortable with. After Dany is taken away from Meereen she has a moment to herself begins considering that she should have done this in a more forceful way by "fire and blood". After reading Egg's reign he went through a similar process of trying to change an old system but he was forced to make compromise after compromise and he ended with a similar conclusion that the only way he would be able to do this is by dragons.He enacted numerous reforms and granted rights and protections to commons that they had never known before, but each of these measures provoked fierce opposition and sometimes open defiance amongst the lords. The most outspoken of his foes went as far as to denounce Aegon V as a "bloody-handed tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties.".....especially as the compromises a king must make to rule well often left his greatest hopes receding further and further and further into the future. As one defiance followed another, His Grace found himself forced to bow to the recalcitrant lords more often than he wished. One of my main aims of this re-read was to reinterpret the popular misconception that Dany's conclusion at the end of ADWD was to give up on ruling and just become a conqueror. However Dany embracing "fire and blood" is only because she now believes just like Egg that the only way to make such drastic reforms is to be more forceful. At least that is what she has learnt from her time in Mereen, I see no other reason to interpret this as "She has given up on ruling" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 From TWOIAF Dragons, Change and Reform After reading the WOIAF, it solidified my understanding of the thematic view of dragons within the story and Dany herself. By reading Egg's reign it made me see how strongly connected the two charaters are especially when attention is paid particularly to Dany's arc in ADWD. Based off the re-read we know Dany's main aim to rule Mereen was to prevent her freedmen from being enslaved again, solidify a "no slavery" law in Meereen and for her Freed Men to actually become "free". However it was more harder than she expected since the Mereenese nobles disliked their tradition being destroyed and disliked the idea of Freed men rising to the same social status as themselves. The Mereenese thus restorted to murders known as the "Harpy's killings" and this forced Dany to make compromise after compromise concluding in a peace she was never comfortable with. After Dany is taken away from Meereen she has a moment to herself begins considering that she should have done this in a more forceful way by "fire and blood". After reading Egg's reign he went through a similar process of trying to change an old system but he was forced to make compromise after compromise and he ended with a similar conclusion that the only way he would be able to do this is by dragons. One of my main aims of this re-read was to reinterpret the popular misconception that Dany's conclusion at the end of ADWD was to give up on ruling and just become a conqueror. However Dany embracing "fire and blood" is only because she now believes just like Egg that the only way to make such drastic reforms is to be more forceful. At least that is what she has learnt from her time in Mereen, I see no other reason to interpret this as "She has given up on ruling" Totally! You are totally right! She was a little naive thinking that she could change Slaver's Bay so easily. I think now she realizes what she has to do, starting with the root of the problem, the Dothraki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted November 19, 2014 Author Share Posted November 19, 2014 From TWOIAF Dragons, Change and Reform After reading the WOIAF, it solidified my understanding of the thematic view of dragons within the story and Dany herself. By reading Egg's reign it made me see how strongly connected the two charaters are especially when attention is paid particularly to Dany's arc in ADWD. Based off the re-read we know Dany's main aim to rule Mereen was to prevent her freedmen from being enslaved again, solidify a "no slavery" law in Meereen and for her Freed Men to actually become "free". However it was more harder than she expected since the Mereenese nobles disliked their tradition being destroyed and disliked the idea of Freed men rising to the same social status as themselves. The Mereenese thus restorted to murders known as the "Harpy's killings" and this forced Dany to make compromise after compromise concluding in a peace she was never comfortable with. After Dany is taken away from Meereen she has a moment to herself begins considering that she should have done this in a more forceful way by "fire and blood". After reading Egg's reign he went through a similar process of trying to change an old system but he was forced to make compromise after compromise and he ended with a similar conclusion that the only way he would be able to do this is by dragons. One of my main aims of this re-read was to reinterpret the popular misconception that Dany's conclusion at the end of ADWD was to give up on ruling and just become a conqueror. However Dany embracing "fire and blood" is only because she now believes just like Egg that the only way to make such drastic reforms is to be more forceful. At least that is what she has learnt from her time in Mereen, I see no other reason to interpret this as "She has given up on ruling" Excellent observation and I completely agree with you. :cheers: TWoIaF I was actually pleasantly surprised at the similarities between Egg and Dany. They are both idealist in many ways, who want to make the world around them better by empowering the "weak" and downtrodden. It's funny that it now makes you see that Dany and Egg's journey's have similarities which we never discussed before. Unlike many or most of the protagonist they have lived lives that have allowed them to see and live experiences which most nobility have no clue about. Both Dany and Egg were princess that live simple lives (for a time) Egg by choice and Dany by necessity. Yet, the lessons they learned shaped them into the people they would become. I feel bad that Egg had such struggle and disappointment in his reign because he was a good man, however, it helps put Dany and her struggles into perspective. Egg had the best at his disposal, an education, the best advisers, a family to love, and yet he still ended up in a similar place as Dany, a girl who had no education, few advisers and no family. The only difference here is that Dany does have the one thing Egg didn't: dragons and that's what will help her achieve what Egg couldn't. Dany is not going to abandon her people, she's going to save them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 From TWOIAF Dragons, Change and Reform After reading the WOIAF, it solidified my understanding of the thematic view of dragons within the story and Dany herself. By reading Egg's reign it made me see how strongly connected the two charaters are especially when attention is paid particularly to Dany's arc in ADWD. Based off the re-read we know Dany's main aim to rule Mereen was to prevent her freedmen from being enslaved again, solidify a "no slavery" law in Meereen and for her Freed Men to actually become "free". However it was more harder than she expected since the Mereenese nobles disliked their tradition being destroyed and disliked the idea of Freed men rising to the same social status as themselves. The Mereenese thus restorted to murders known as the "Harpy's killings" and this forced Dany to make compromise after compromise concluding in a peace she was never comfortable with. After Dany is taken away from Meereen she has a moment to herself begins considering that she should have done this in a more forceful way by "fire and blood". After reading Egg's reign he went through a similar process of trying to change an old system but he was forced to make compromise after compromise and he ended with a similar conclusion that the only way he would be able to do this is by dragons. One of my main aims of this re-read was to reinterpret the popular misconception that Dany's conclusion at the end of ADWD was to give up on ruling and just become a conqueror. However Dany embracing "fire and blood" is only because she now believes just like Egg that the only way to make such drastic reforms is to be more forceful. At least that is what she has learnt from her time in Mereen, I see no other reason to interpret this as "She has given up on ruling" Well spotted and well done! I totally agree. And I agree with MOIAF pleasantly surprised to see how many similarities there were between Dany and Egg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 ^ I just hope they don't end up the same :( From TWOIAF One of my main aims of this re-read was to reinterpret the popular misconception that Dany's conclusion at the end of ADWD was to give up on ruling and just become a conqueror. However Dany embracing "fire and blood" is only because she now believes just like Egg that the only way to make such drastic reforms is to be more forceful. At least that is what she has learnt from her time in Mereen, I see no other reason to interpret this as "She has given up on ruling" It kills me completely that this is taken as a negative thing. It's oversimplify what ruling means. For instance, when we had a civil war here, everybody agreed on the need of forceful reforms because it was needed for the survival and peace of the country and its people. The problem was that the government abused of that power and they ended up murdering more people than the enemies they were fighting, and stepping over human rights. Ironically, twenty years later and with the main responsible in jail, despite we have a government more inclined to not repeat those mistakes, mostly keep asking it to have a "stronger hand" and I definitely agree. A stronger hand is definitely needed to rule. A subversion of this would be the Bible. A lot of rules we find thereare ridiculous now, but in those times, they made sense. Now, as we haveevolved as a society, we don't need them any more. Marriage, forinstance, is not the same as it was back them: now is not wrong to marrysomeone who is not from your same land, or you same 'race'. Insist onusing them is ridiculous. A smaller example is parenthood (which isn't that far from the identity of Dany as a "mother"). When you have younger kids, the rules are definitely more strict, because you are shaping a person: "it's completely forbidden for you to leave the house alone". When the kids are a bit older, the rules don't need to be as tight: "you can go out alone, but return before sunset". Egg's rule was not a good rule because he became a permissive leader. Maybe her heart was in the right place, but his own children abused his good nature (sound similar?). "Yeah, we're marrying people we shouldn't. Dad will have to suck it". Maekar was also a permissive father and that caused Daeron and Aerion, a drunkard and an cruel idiot. Egg should have explained his children better that if he married the woman he married it was because he wasn't meant to be a King, while they were now princes with different obligations: he did not have a stronger hand with them. And the NEED of having a strong rule with dragons was what destroyed his family at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoIaF Posted November 19, 2014 Author Share Posted November 19, 2014 ^ I just hope they don't end up the same :( It kills me completely that this is taken as a negative thing. It's oversimplify what ruling means. For instance, when we had a civil war here, everybody agreed on the need of forceful reforms because it was needed for the survival and peace of the country and its people. The problem was that the government abused of that power and they ended up murdering more people than the enemies they were fighting, and stepping over human rights. Ironically, twenty years later and with the main responsible in jail, despite we have a government more inclined to not repeat those mistakes, mostly keep asking it to have a "stronger hand" and I definitely agree. A stronger hand is definitely needed to rule. A subversion of this would be the Bible. A lot of rules we find thereare ridiculous now, but in those times, they made sense. Now, as we haveevolved as a society, we don't need them any more. Marriage, forinstance, is not the same as it was back them: now is not wrong to marrysomeone who is not from your same land, or you same 'race'. Insist onusing them is ridiculous. A smaller example is parenthood (which isn't that far from the identity of Dany as a "mother"). When you have younger kids, the rules are definitely more strict, because you are shaping a person: "it's completely forbidden for you to leave the house alone". When the kids are a bit older, the rules don't need to be as tight: "you can go out alone, but return before sunset". Egg's rule was not a good rule because he became a permissive leader. Maybe her heart was in the right place, but his own children abused his good nature (sound similar?). "Yeah, we're marrying people we shouldn't. Dad will have to suck it". Maekar was also a permissive father and that caused Daeron and Aerion, a drunkard and an cruel idiot. Egg should have explained his children better that if he married the woman he married it was because he wasn't meant to be a King, while they were now princes with different obligations: he did not have a stronger hand with them. And the NEED of having a strong rule with dragons was what destroyed his family at the end.I hope their parallels are not that close, although I fear my beloved queen won't outlive the series. :crying:I think your experience is very apt, you do need checks and balances but that doesn't mean that a system should stay stagnant. Sometimes the only way to change is through drastic measures. You do, however, have to temper that afterwards, revolution for revolution sake is not good either. That's where a Great Council can be very useful. For what Egg was trying to accomplish his easygoing attitude was not useful, he was trying to revolutionize a system that had been in place for a long time. You have to be forceful when trying to destroy an old system and create a new one. Dany has already succeeded where Egg failed - hatching the dragons. Perhaps she will be able to accomplish her revolution, although, I think much of it will be completed by the slaves themselves as it'll take time. But Dany realized that she had a power given to her by the dragons to make a difference, she forgot about it, but she remembered again. The dragons don't have to plant trees to do great and good things - they are many ways to change the world. Sadly slavery won't be ended by tree planting. Anyhow, there is the nice quote from the Dunk and Egg novellas that a good comparison for Egg and Dany:"You know who I am cousin.""Your squire is insolent ser. Lord Rivers said to Dunk. "You ought to beat that out of him."I've tried m'lord but he is a prince though."What he is," said Bloodraven, "is a dragon. Rise ser."Damn straight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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