Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part VI: ADWD

[BearQueen87]

How do we know no one saw when Dany she didn't leave the tent to see anyone out there? I doubt Drogo's riders would have ratted out his khaleesi, and possibly risk Drogo's wrath. I said she was nowhere near VD after MMD's spell not Viserys getting hit.

But none of the Bloodriders were there, they left with Drogo to go up into the mountains. From Dany IV

"Khaleesi," Cohollo said to her, in Dothraki. "Drogo, who is blood of my blood, commands me to tell you that he must ascend the Mother of Mountains this night, to sacrifice to the gods for his safe return."

Only men were allowed to set foot on the Mother, Dany knew. The khal's bloodriders would go with him, and return at dawn.

The other people there would be slaves--most of whom fled when Drogo died or who followed Dany and are back in Meereen. So who else?

She doesn't know she miscarried. Davos got to know his sons and see them grow while Dany didn't.

I disagree. She does know, hence why she begins to talk about why she can never have children. She's lying to herself when she says it's only moons blood and then changes to realize that she hasn't bleed in sometime. Then comes the talk about how she can never have a daughter. Dany knows but she knows that she has to press on. Never underestimate the power of trauma to change your perception.

I doubt with Jhaqo there, her situation is going to improve. The crones won't declare her StMtW without her being in VD for the khalasars to gather. GRRM makes situations worse before they reach their high points. If she is StMtW, her situation is going to have to get worse.

And how do you envision it getting worse? She's miscarried, starving, obviously incredibly sick, dehydrated, traumatized from everything she's been through in Meereen to the point where her subconscious is conjuring up dreams of her abusive dead brother who calls her a whore (so she's calling herself a whore) and the only thing saving her from rape and torture is (most likely) a dragon. I'm not saying it's not going to be bad but her situation is already bad enough if that's a prerequisite to be named the STMTW--which it isn't by prophetic standards. Do I think she's going to have to defend her use of blood magic? Yes. But that's not worse than what she's already been through, plus Drogon is obviously not going to leave her. And she's stronger with him. So besides a possible "trial" (whatever that entails) in front of the Crones who will probably end up naming her (or Drogon, if QA is right) what is going to get worse for her?

[Fire Eater]

But none of the Bloodriders were there, they left with Drogo to go up into the mountains. From Dany IV

The other people there would be slaves--most of whom fled when Drogo died or who followed Dany and are back in Meereen. So who else?

Drogo's khalasar isn't composed entirely of bloodriders, they only make up three out of forty thousand people. I doubt there were was nobody outside in a khalasar where there is no privacy, not even lower level riders.

I disagree. She does know, hence why she begins to talk about why she can never have children. She's lying to herself when she says it's only moons blood and then changes to realize that she hasn't bleed in sometime. Then comes the talk about how she can never have a daughter. Dany knows but she knows that she has to press on. Never underestimate the power of trauma to change your perception.

Then why does she call it her moonblood instead of a miscarriage?

And how do you envision it getting worse? She's miscarried, starving, obviously incredibly sick, dehydrated, traumatized from everything she's been through in Meereen to the point where her subconscious is conjuring up dreams of her abusive dead brother who calls her a whore (so she's calling herself a whore) and the only thing saving her from rape and torture is (most likely) a dragon. I'm not saying it's not going to be bad but her situation is already bad enough if that's a prerequisite to be named the STMTW--which it isn't by prophetic standards. Do I think she's going to have to defend her use of blood magic? Yes. But that's not worse than what she's already been through, plus Drogon is obviously not going to leave her. And she's stronger with him. So besides a possible "trial" (whatever that entails) in front of the Crones who will probably end up naming her (or Drogon, if QA is right) what is going to get worse for her?

Obviously incredibly sick? Funny, she doesn't seem to be suffering any symptoms by the time she reunites with Drogo. Cersei left her imprisonment at the end of AFfC only for it to be the walk of shame, and Jaime left with Brienne and I doubt it is to a good end, and Sansa left KL only to get into the hands of LF. Davos's situation was bad enough, but it got worse before it got better, we got the impression his life was in the balance. Characters go from one bad situation to a worse one. Dany defending herself ins such a trial would be bad given her punishment would likely be death.

Drogon left her in Meereen, and he is still untrained for the most part. Had she not gone into the pit he likely would have left without her. He always goes back to his cave at dusk, and it is dusk by the time Jhaqo arrives. He was likely investigating the site of Drogon's latest attack after he left. If the smoke was thick enough to hide fifty mounted men, then it was probably likely thick enough to hide Drogon flying away.

[BearQueen87]

Drogo's khalasar isn't composed entirely of bloodriders, they only make up three out of forty thousand people. I doubt there were was nobody outside in a khalasar where there is no privacy, not even lower level riders.

And are any of those people in VD? A vast majority went with the other Khals when Drogo fell. The others stayed with Dany and are either dead from the Red Waste or in Meereen.

Also, would they really not have said anything? At least gone to someone to let them know that Viserys was bleeding and that it could cause trouble?

Then why does she call it her moonblood instead of a miscarriage?

Because it's an unbelievably traumatic experience. And she rejects that it's moonsblood. She realizes that she hasn't had her period in three months and then starts to think about the last time she had sex with Daario and then starts to mourn the fact that she won't ever have children. But she can't stop and think on this, she has to keep walking. Like I said, she's pushing the trauma to the back of her mind in order to keep moving.

Obviously incredibly sick? Funny, she doesn't seem to be suffering any symptoms by the time she reunites with Drogo.

I'm going to assume you mean Drogon. But she's got the runs, and it's getting worse. She's also dehydrated, drinking dirty water, and under fed. She's not the specimen of health by the end of that last chapter.

Characters go from one bad situation to a worse one. Dany defending herself ins such a trial would be bad given her punishment would likely be death.

So every character is always going to keep getting themselves into worse situations? When do they stop getting themselves into worse ones? At what point is enough, enough and they start to climb back up? I'd saying having to chain yourself in a loveless marriage arranged by people who hate you and want you out of their city, who are killing your people, and then having to walk hundreds of miles while you are sick, having a miscarriage, and hallucinating is going from bad to worse. Why must it now go from worse to even worse? The end of ADWD when Dany isn't running scared but is waiting for the rider is her choosing her fate and what to do next. Will VD be hard and have trials? YES. I've never said otherwise, but I don't think she's walking into something that is "worse" than what she went through for all of ADWD. And, here's a question...worse by who's standards, yours or Dany's?

Drogon left her in Meereen, and he is still untrained for the most part.

Dany has been riding Drogon many times since the pit. Once she chose him, he chose her. He might not be a fully trained dragon but she's flying him with just a whip and their connection. I'd say that's good enough.

Had she not gone into the pit he likely would have left without her.

I agree, but since Dany chose him, it's moot. She chose her dragon and her dragon chose her. He's not going to up and leave her in her time of need. He was drawn to the city of Meereen due to her stress and fears, he came to the Pit because of a mix of the food, the noise, and her growing anxiety. They are tied.

[PatrickStormborn]

I don't for one minute believe Drogon would have flown away without Dany in Daznak's Pit. He arrived to take her away, and he would not have fled - a dragon's instinct is to attack, not flee.

Except how does she become declared StMtW if she just goes to Meereen? She needs to be in VD for the crones to declare her the StMtW, and have the khalasars gather.

Sorry to be blunt, but you totally misunderstood my post. I have stated multiple times that I don't believe she will ever return to Meereen, and you surely know that I am one of the biggest supporters of Dany being declared the StMtW (in fact, I'm probably pushing for it most on this forum).

As I've said, if Dany learns that Meereen is destroyed, she will be at a low point without having to be forced to return to Vaes Dothrak without Drogon, which would surely see her being abused by Jhaqo and/or Mago.

There are a lot of indications that Drogon won't leave Dany this time, but I don't think you're going to change your mind so I'm not wasting my time.

[BearQueen87]

There are a lot of indications that Drogon won't leave Dany this time, but I don't think you're going to change your mind so I'm not wasting my time.

I agree. I don't, for the life of me, know why Drogon would leave Dany again. Their mother/child bond has been strengthened now that she's his rider and he bowed to her. I really don't know why he wouldn't be there for her again when she's in trouble or in distress. If Drogon did start making his way back to Meereen because of her emotional state (before she rode him!) then he's surely not going to peace out now.

[PatrickStormborn]

I agree. I don't, for the life of me, know why Drogon would leave Dany again. Their mother/child bond has been strengthened now that she's his rider and he bowed to her. I really don't know why he wouldn't be there for her again when she's in trouble or in distress. If Drogon did start making his way back to Meereen because of her emotional state (before she rode him!) then he's surely not going to peace out now.

Yeah, exactly. If he was going to fly away anyway, why not just have Jhaqo and his riders find her without him? Or why not leave us on a bigger cliffhanger by having him fly away at the end of the chapter?

He comes to her when she calls him after her epiphany, there's some kind of blood sacrifice/bonding going on (blood for fire, fire for blood, etc.), he follows her directions exactly, she guides him with her hands rather than a whip, and they even share a meal together whereas before she had only been surviving from his leftovers.

It would really ruin Dany's epiphany if Drogon abandoned her. She chooses fire and blood over appeasement, she accepts herself as a dragon, and ultimately she loses the one fear she had left - fear of herself.

When Illyrio describes Daenerys to Tyrion at the beginning of the novel, this is what he says:

"Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different." He popped a roasted lark into his mouth and crunched it noisily, bones and all. "The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen. When I sent ships to bring her home, she turned toward Slaver's Bay. In a short span of days she conquered Astapor, made Yunkai bend the knee, and sacked Meereen."

But the death of the "frightened" Daenerys on the Dothraki Sea and her rebirth in blood and fire only truly happens at the end of the novel. She told Xaro Xhoan Daxos that only one thing frightened her after the birth of the dragons, and in an unpublished reading she told Barristan that it was herself. By the end of ADwD, this is not the case. There is no longer anything that truly frightens Daenerys.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

I find it funny that this thread goes on for thirteen pages after the last chapter.

[Kyoshi]

I find it funny that this thread goes on for thirteen pages after the last chapter.

#TeamKhaleesi is that awesome!

[BearQueen87]

#TeamKhaleesi is that awesome!

We have our own hashtag now? YES!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I find it funny that this thread goes on for thirteen pages after the last chapter.

I'm sure we will finish this out to 400.

[MoIaF]

I think any talk of Drogon abandoning Dany is rather pointless - that happened already when she tried to chain him up, it's not going to happen again. it would be redundant to repeat that storyline especially after Dany has been embraced by Drogon as his rider and she has chosen him over Meereen. We also heard from GRRM a couple of months ago about how we'll learn more about the bond between Dragon and rider and I'm sure we'll get the majority of that information from Dany's POV.

I find it funny that this thread goes on for thirteen pages after the last chapter.

We always have a lot to say - that's what the thread is for.

ALSO - Have you guys been reading The Meereense Blot thread. There is a lot of interesting discussion about who poisoned the locusts.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

ALSO - Have you guys been reading The Meereense Blot thread. There is a lot of interesting discussion about who poisoned the locusts.

The only Dany threads I enter are this ones because it's safe :3

[MoIaF]

The only Dany threads I enter are this ones because it's safe :3

I try to stay away but sometimes I can't help myself...I've been better about it though. :D

[BearQueen87]

ALSO - Have you guys been reading The Meereense Blot thread. There is a lot of interesting discussion about who poisoned the locusts.

I just read the last two pages and I'm still trying to process it all, but the case for the locusts being designed to induce a miscarriage is getting stronger, IMO.

[MoIaF]

I just read the last two pages and I'm still trying to process it all, but the case for the locusts being designed to induce a miscarriage is getting stronger, IMO.

As we discussed here when were were discussing the chapter - the Shavepate theory sounds great and very plausible but there are manly holes in the theory. The idea about the miscarriage is looking stronger because there is a lot of relevant information we received that fits into that theory . In the end though we don't have a clear cut suspect, many of the things don't make sense or don't add up.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

As we discussed here when were were discussing the chapter - the Shavepate theory sounds great and very plausible but there are manly holes in the theory. The idea about the miscarriage is looking stronger because there is a lot of relevant information we received that fits into that theory . In the end though we don't have a clear cut suspect, many of the things don't make sense or don't add up.

The forced miscarriage makes total sense except that it is a food Dany is known to hate, so if someone thought she was pregnant they knew a lot about her, except what food she liked? that makes no sense,how could someone know so much about her, but still be ignorant about the most important thing that will make the poisoning work; Dany has to eat it.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

As we discussed here when were were discussing the chapter - the Shavepate theory sounds great and very plausible but there are manly holes in the theory. The idea about the miscarriage is looking stronger because there is a lot of relevant information we received that fits into that theory . In the end though we don't have a clear cut suspect, many of the things don't make sense or don't add up.

I just read the last two pages and I'm still trying to process it all, but the case for the locusts being designed to induce a miscarriage is getting stronger, IMO.

My only problem with the locusts being designed to induce miscarriage is that, it's too much of a risk. For instance after Dany is gone the Harpy and Hizdahr begin to make the throne into a dragon etc, which means they known how much power Dany's name gives them. If it was an attempt of iscarriage I'm guessing it would give Dany a knockout which would be detrimental to them. Also an attempt of a miscarriage will make Dany lose her trust in them.

[BearQueen87]

The forced miscarriage makes total sense except that it is a food Dany is known to hate, so if someone thought she was pregnant they knew a lot about her, except what food she liked? that makes no sense,how could someone know so much about her, but still be ignorant about the most important thing that will make the poisoning work; Dany has to eat it.

But I think you can argue that Dany would at least try one or two of the locusts given how much she's already acquiesced to the demands of the Harpy and her sons already: the wedding, the pits....Out of politeness Dany might sample one, just enough to cause her to miscarry.

But then someone points out that Dany has already refused to eat the wedding cake that was traditional to Meereenese culture, so if she won't eat cake (which is much more acceptable food to Dany) then why would she eat the locusts?

[BearQueen87]

My only problem with the locusts being designed to induce miscarriage is that, it's too much of a risk. For instance after Dany is gone the Harpy and Hizdahr begin to make the throne into a dragon etc, which means they known how much power Dany's name gives them. If it was an attempt of iscarriage I'm guessing it would give Dany a knockout which would be detrimental to them. Also an attempt of a miscarriage will make Dany lose her trust in them.

I'm just going to play with this idea, not sure how much I'm buying into what I'm saying.

But if the Sons and the Harpy wanted to reduce the risk of Dany dying, but still need to get rid of Daario's baby, then the locusts are actually the way to go. Dany doesn't like them, but given the amount she's given over in terms of power, she's more likely to sample half a locust, one locust..but not enough to kill her. If they wanted to kill Dany, they'd have put the poison in the figs which Dany would have eaten more readily and a greater quantity of.

The final point you make is a good one, though would she suspect the Harpy of inducing a miscarriage? She already thinks she can't have children so having a miscarriage might be confirmation in her mind that she can never carry a child to term, not necessarily anything conspiratorial.

So the game plan is to get rid of Daario's baby but maintain Dany as Dragon Figure Head of Meereen while Hizzy and the GG are the real power, slowly stripping Dany of any real say in her city.

Someone in the MB thread made a really good point that Hizzy says that the locusts "are" tasty--meaning he's had them before but he won't partake of them now. So that suggests Hizzy was in on it, whatever the motivation.

[PatrickStormborn]

The forced miscarriage makes total sense except that it is a food Dany is known to hate, so if someone thought she was pregnant they knew a lot about her, except what food she liked? that makes no sense,how could someone know so much about her, but still be ignorant about the most important thing that will make the poisoning work; Dany has to eat it.

Well, I don't think it's actually that important... After all, presumably whoever was responsible for the poisoning assumed there would be other opportunities.

I definitely continue to think Hizdahr was not behind the plot, simply because he seems to have no worries about Belwas eating the locusts, which would surely make it clear that there was a poisoning attempt. But the fact that he urges her to eat them tells me that he was at least somewhat aware of what was going on - even if he was only informed that Dany should eat them. Similarly, his sudden insistence that the Dornishmen were behind the poisoning seems to suggest that he isn't interested in the truth behind the poisoning attempt, indicating that he was either aware of the plot or assumed it was his allies.