R+L=J v.108

[Alia of the knife]

“How fares our lad?” asked Illyrio as the chests were being secured. Tyrion counted six oaken chests with iron hasps. Duck shifted them easily enough, hoisting them on one shoulder.

When the lad emerged from the cabin with Lemore by his side, Griff looked him over carefully from head to heel. The prince wore sword and dagger, black boots polished to a high sheen, a black cloak lined with blood-red silk.

The Bright Prince, Aerion Targaryen, he was a Second Son.

“My lord does have one prize to offer,” Haldon Halfmaester pointed out. “Prince Aegon’s hand. A marriage alliance, to bring some great House to our banners.”

A bride for our bright prince.

This is like the biggest giveway ever.

"As the Bright Prince is not? Raymun laughed. Dont look so anxious, Ser Duncan, theres none here but us. It is no secret that Aerion is a bad piece of work. Thank the gods that he is well down in the order of succession.

...

Prince Aerion made a sudden dive for his morningstar. Dunk kicked him in the back and knocked him facedown, then grabbed hold of one of his legs and dragged him across the field. By the time he reached the viewing stand where Lord Ashford sat, the Bright Prince was brown as a privy. Dunk hauled him onto his feet and rattled him, shaking some of the mud onto Lord Ashford and the fair maid. Tell him!

Shadow?” Davos felt his flesh prickling. “A shadow is a thing of darkness.”

“You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows.”

Aegon the Unworthy ... began his realm when he was young and handsome, and ended it old and corrupt. To provide some variety in the portraits, let us go with the older Aegon. By the end he was bloated, fat, corrupt. His eyes almost lost in the fat of his face, his legs too weak to support his belly, his mouth small and mean. His clothing should be silk and satin, bright and rich, and he would have lots of gold and gemstones about him; a chain, rings, etc.

Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger’s eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion mused, though I’d need a cleaver to claim them.

And addition to this, the description of Ilyrios own appearance as a youth sounds eerily similar to the dragons as well, be they legit or not, as well to young Griff.

“Illyrio is tall and morbidly obese, with an oiled forked yellow beard and crooked yellow teeth.[1] He has pig's eyes and fat cheeks. He has a huge white belly and a pair of heavy breasts that sag like sacks of suet covered with coarse yellow hair. His bedrobe is large enough to serve as a tourney pavilion.(jeeze Martin). :shocked:

In his youth, however, Illyrio was a sellsword and was muscular and exceptionally handsome.

A statue of his youthful self carved by Pytho Malanon graces the court in his manse. It is of a naked boy standing in the water of a marble pool, poised to duel with a bravo’s blade in hand. He is lithe and handsome, no older than sixteen, with straight blond hair that brushes his shoulders. So lifelike does the statue seem that it takes Tyrion a moment to realise he is made of painted marble, though his sword simmers like true steel.

Illyrio says he once wept looking at the statue of himself then and looking at himself now.”

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

And addition to this, the description of Ilyrios own appearance as a youth sounds eerily similar to the dragons as well, be they legit or not, as well to young Griff.

“Illyrio is tall and morbidly obese, with an oiled forked yellow beard and crooked yellow teeth.[1] He has pig's eyes and fat cheeks. He has a huge white belly and a pair of heavy breasts that sag like sacks of suet covered with coarse yellow hair. His bedrobe is large enough to serve as a tourney pavilion.(jeeze Martin). :shocked:

In his youth, however, Illyrio was a sellsword and was muscular and exceptionally handsome.

A statue of his youthful self carved by Pytho Malanon graces the court in his manse. It is of a naked boy standing in the water of a marble pool, poised to duel with a bravo’s blade in hand. He is lithe and handsome, no older than sixteen, with straight blond hair that brushes his shoulders. So lifelike does the statue seem that it takes Tyrion a moment to realise he is made of painted marble, though his sword simmers like true steel.

Illyrio says he once wept looking at the statue of himself then and looking at himself now.”

Agreed,sounds to me like Aegon The Unworthy 2.0.Also has his eye colour ever been mentioned?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Thank you all for your thoughts.

A google document does sound like a great way to try and make this a reality. I would love to contribute (I could type down the rest of the quotes I already have highlighted that I didn't put in that thread I linked), but I really don't see myself "running" the whole thing. Someone who is more involved in the RLJ threads would probably do a much better job, anyway.

I'm always willing to help! :) Though I'll admit I am fairly busy these next few weeks, and there are those people who have found way more hints than I did.

[MtnLion]

With Selmy, when I read his inner thoughts, I always got the impression he knew the man who was Asharas lover, but he isn't sharing it with the reader.

We are in the same place, here. I am ready to know what Barristan knows . . .

[Alia of the knife]

Agreed,sounds to me like Aegon The Unworthy 2.0.Also has his eye colour ever been mentioned?

I'm not sure, but I'll wager YG's eye color is closer to Ilyrios than Rhaegars.

[Lord_Rose]

If Lyanna Was found in a pool of Blood with a promise to Ned One why would she be in a pool of blood unless birthing a child the book never stated she was Killed by murder or stabbed so obivoulsy it was birthing a child but why is that child never mentioned if Ned possibley found this child nor what had happend in the event of the war that this Child survived and Ned didnt want to speak of the woman Wylias I think or the woman that commited suicide?

[BearQueen87]

If Lyanna Was found in a pool of Blood with a promise to Ned One why would she be in a pool of blood unless birthing a child the book never stated she was Killed by murder or stabbed so obivoulsy it was birthing a child but why is that child never mentioned if Ned possibley found this child nor what had happend in the event of the war that this Child survived and Ned didnt want to speak of the woman Wylias I think or the woman that commited suicide?

A few things.

1) Lyanna was found in a "bed of blood" not pool, subtle difference because we later learn in a Dany chapter that "bloody bed" refers to childbirth.

2) The book never states how Lyanna dies at all, just that she's dead. GRRM put clues though. Childbirth plus fever (puerperal fever)

3) Ned never thinks of anyone as Jon's mother. Wylla was the wetnurse and Ned does give her name to Robert as Jon's mother, but he never thinks of her as Jon's mother.

4) Suicide woman ...you mean Ashara Dayne?

[J. Stargaryen]

Though I am in the Brandon crowd, it would also work if Prince Llewyn was her lover, though again, the way Selmy speaks, she would be an old woman by now, which Ashara would not be, so my impression is that the woman in question would have been of an age with Llewyn, maybe a high-ranking court widow.

It was Arianne who said that.

“I never had the honor to know Prince Lewyn,” Ser Arys said, “but all agree that he was a great knight.”

“A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a rare beauty in her youth, men say.”

Prince Lewyn? That tale Ser Arys had not heard. It shocked him. Terrence Toyne’s treason and the deceits of Lucamore the Lusty were recorded in the White Book, but there was no hint of a woman on Prince Lewyn’s page.

- AFfC, The Soiled Knight

The fact that Arianne describes her as "an old woman now" is the major stumbling block with the Lewyn + Ashara. Though, it could be a bit of tricky wording on GRRM's part, and Arianne is just assuming that to be the case. Also, it could be more; an assumption on Arianne's part and a hint to the reader that Ashara is still alive.

On the other hand, in favor of L+A is the part where she describes the woman as "a rare beauty." Which certainly fits with what we know of Ashara.

With Selmy, when I read his inner thoughts, I always got the impression he knew the man who was Asharas lover, but he isn't sharing it with the reader. He is sharing what he knew of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and I always thought he was pretty "matter of fact" about Harrenhal, thier love, (he called it a poison), and the unfortunate outcome. I also got the feeling that while he admired and liked Rhaegar, and perhaps had nothing against Lyanna, they are just "that couple" you wished had never met each other.

I think this is the natural assumption, but I'm not sure if it's true. And if it isn't, if it was Prince Lewyn that was Ashara's lover, right under Selmy's nose, that would add a good deal of irony to a certain passage.

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

- ADwD, The Kingbreaker

[Lord Varys]

I don't know Illyrio's eye color, but Varys' are brown.

With George's descriptions of all the Targaryen kings in mind it makes no matter that Aegon's eyes are, apparently, somewhat lighter than Rhaegar's. Viserys' and Dany's are, too, as far as I know, and Jaehaerys I and Alysanne even had blue eyes.

[Alia of the knife]

We are in the same place, here. I am ready to know what Barristan knows . . .

Thats right.

What did he know, and when did he know it?

[Alia of the knife]

I don't know Illyrio's eye color, but Varys' are brown.

With George's descriptions of all the Targaryen kings in mind it makes no matter that Aegon's eyes are, apparently, somewhat lighter than Rhaegar's. Viserys' and Dany's are, too, as far as I know, and Jaehaerys I and Alysanne even had blue eyes.

I'm actually leery now of depending on markers like eye color given all the people who have purple to blue eyes who are not Targaryens like the Daynes, the Valaryons, half the population of Lys, and those of Targaryen blood like the Martells, Bittersteel, (Varys),and Jon.

[Alia of the knife]

It was Arianne who said that.

- AFfC, The Soiled Knight

The fact that Arianne describes her as "an old woman now" is the major stumbling block with the Lewyn + Ashara. Though, it could be a bit of tricky wording on GRRM's part, and Arianne is just assuming that to be the case. Also, it could be more; an assumption on Arianne's part and a hint to the reader that Ashara is still alive.

On the other hand, in favor of L+A is the part where she describes the woman as "a rare beauty." Which certainly fits with what we know of Ashara.

I think this is the natural assumption, but I'm not sure if it's true. And if it isn't, if it was Prince Lewyn that was Ashara's lover, right under Selmy's nose, that would add a good deal of irony to a certain passage.

- ADwD, The Kingbreaker

Woops, totally forgot half the stuff she said.

Need another re-read.

[Lord Varys]

Aegon could, of course, have (a) parent(s) with Valyrian features, I just wanted to stretch the fact that the Targaryens as a pretty pure Valyrian bloodline are confirmed to bring forth scions with very different shades of purple, lilac etc.

That in itself does not prove or disprove anything, of course.

The purple eyes of the Daynes - Ashara, Edric, and Gerold all share them - (and Dawn, a Valyrian sword which is not a Valyrian sword) are most likely not a coincidence. GRRM is giving us certain clues there. They may be descended from early or proto-Valyrians, (people who would found the Valyria in the future and already possessed some of their magical powers). Dawn is a pretty big hint in that direction.

[Alia of the knife]

Aegon could, of course, have (a) parent(s) with Valyrian features, I just wanted to stretch the fact that the Targaryens as a pretty pure Valyrian bloodline are confirmed to bring forth scions with very different shades of purple, lilac etc.

That in itself does not prove or disprove anything, of course.

The purple eyes of the Daynes - Ashara, Edric, and Gerold all share them - (and Dawn, a Valyrian sword which is not a Valyrian sword) are most likely not a coincidence. GRRM is giving us certain clues there. They may be descended from early or proto-Valyrians, (people who would found the Valyria in the future and already possessed some of their magical powers). Dawn is a pretty big hint in that direction.

I could see that, and if Ashara pursued the mystic ways of Quaithe, it may have something to do with that.

[Kingmonkey]

I'm actually leery now of depending on markers like eye color given all the people who have purple to blue eyes who are not Targaryens like the Daynes, the Valaryons, half the population of Lys, and those of Targaryen blood like the Martells, Bittersteel, (Varys),and Jon.

It's well known that in GRRM's writing, eye colour is always very important -- except where it isn't, or where he forgot what he wrote previously, or it's a red herring, or he wasn't really thinking about it at all.

[BearQueen87]

It's well known that in GRRM's writing, eye colour is always very important -- except where it isn't, or where he forgot what he wrote previously, or it's a red herring, or he wasn't really thinking about it at all.

Ha. Ha. ha.

[Alia of the knife]

It's well known that in GRRM's writing, eye colour is always very important -- except where it isn't, or where he forgot what he wrote previously, or it's a red herring, or he wasn't really thinking about it at all.

Exactly, I think that question is actually a peeve of his.

[Black Crow]

I don't know Illyrio's eye color, but Varys' are brown.

He also at times has stubble on his cheeks and smells of sweat and sour wine, which may be why he is sometimes perfumed. His voice also deepens when Ser Kevan is dying. In short not only is he devious but we really don't know what he really looks like. :cool4:

[Attitude]

If I tell you'll that I have blue eyes, can I count myself as a Targ? Or just a WW?

[Bran17]

If I tell you'll that I have blue eyes, can I count myself as a Targ? Or just a WW?

A secret Targaryen. It is known.