R+L=J v.111

[aDanceWithFlagons]

From Dany's HotU scene, as Elia holds baby Aegon. "There must be one more. The dragon must have three heads." By this time he has Rhaenys and Aegon. One more child is needed.

I know, I know. But he was looking at Dany when he spoke. Aemon thought he could be a head of the dragon, so I think the 3 heads are not necessarily siblings.

Now that I caught up since I posted this... I forgot about Halloween! So, don't murder anyone for dressing as Robert tonight! :laugh:

[BearQueen87]

I know, I know. But he was looking at Dany when he spoke. Aemon thought he could be a head of the dragon, so I think the 3 heads are not necessarily siblings.

Now that I caught up since I posted this... I forgot about Halloween! So, don't murder anyone for dressing as Robert tonight! :laugh:

Aemon may not have, but Rhaegar might have. When "Rhaegar" turns to say that to Dany it's not really Rhaegar so much as magic breaking the fourth wall. It's magic telling Dany (and the readers) something important but I think it matches what Rhaegar thought, at least in the broad sense that he thought there needed to be three and we have no recollection from Viserys about Rhaegar spending any time with him, preparing him, ect.

I don't think they need to be siblings given that I think the three heads are Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. Jon and Dany are aunt/nephew and Tyrion is a Lannister (unless AJT holds up).

[J. Stargaryen]

We spend a lot of time discussing and theorizing over the secret/hidden Targaryens (and/or Bright- Blackfyres) in the story. While, in universe, there are definitely four secret/hidden Starks; Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon. The latter three all believed to be dead. So, another little ice & fire, Stark & Targaryen parallel. The difference being that the audience is in on the secret with the Stark kids.

Happy Halloween! :cheers:

[Ser Creighton]

Princess Unicorn in action XDhttp://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s389/sj4iy/halloween14_zps7c0e816f.jpg

So friggin cute, love the kicks on little Princess Unicorn.

http://rs1337.pbsrc.com/albums/o665/anitamcd/1031141959a_zpsdx4ujjjv.jpg~320x480

Inspired by my fourteen year old furbaby.

Happy Halloween!

Alia look out someone left a Bear on the chair next to you. It looks hungry.

So jealous I almost always dress up and I can't this year. Everyone gets to have fun but me. I was at least thinking I would get the usual mob of kids early on, which is always entertaining, but it went from snow flurries to sleet to hail. You know whats interesting about Tricks and treats? The entire basis of it seems to come from Hansel and Gretel. Adult lures kid to house with candy, kid plays trick on adult. Though nobody ever does the trick anymore. That's why I make kids actually say trick or treat, even the old teenagers who are looking for handouts. Then I tell them I want the trick as I eat the candy in front of them. I am not giving away my candy, you got to earn it and the trick better be good or in the oven they go.

So what did you make the hubby wear?

:laugh: I love Dwight trying to rationalize that. "Did a king have sex with a unicorn? did a unicorn have sex with some kind of royal horse?"

They are adorable.

Dwight's unicorn debate reminds me of every do Targs have dragon blood thread ever posted.

[sj4iy]

So friggin cute, love the kicks on little Princess Unicorn.

Thanks :) I wanted something she could walk in.

So jealous I almost always dress up and I can't this year. Everyone gets to have fun but me. I was at least thinking I would get the usual mob of kids early on, which is always entertaining, but it went from snow flurries to sleet to hail. You know whats interesting about Tricks and treats? The entire basis of it seems to come from Hansel and Gretel. Adult lures kid to house with candy, kid plays trick on adult. Though nobody ever does the trick anymore. That's why I make kids actually say trick or treat, even the old teenagers who are looking for handouts. Then I tell them I want the trick as I eat the candy in front of them. I am not giving away my candy, you got to earn it and the trick better be good or in the oven they go.

I do, too. They don't get candy until they do- I even held the bowl out of reach tonight of a couple of preteens until they said it. One kid didn't even know what to say, and said Happy Halloween instead. But they have to at least acknowledge my presence to get my food ;)

[UnmaskedLurker]

I do not get involved with this thread very often, but I do like to partake from time to time. I don't recall Rhaegar ever saying his children would be the three heads of the dragon or prepared for the battle of the dawn. I am not necessarily calling you out on this, so don't take this as a personal affront. This is never mentioned in the book, and I admit Rhaegar's motives are still unknown. Nevertheless, what is Jon Snow, being a legitimate Targ, in relation to his current circumstance in the North? How does King Jon Snow/Targaryen play into the story plot? The Targs do not own the throne, nor have they since Robert's Rebellion. So how is Jon King of the Westeros any more than Dany or Aegon VI? why???

As far as the septons' and the Seven's thoughts on the matter of the Targs... yes, I think the Targs(and the North for that matter) would not give two scoops of raisins for their thoughts. :cheers:

While, as usual, BQ87 has my back (and I pretty much agree with what she wrote), I will try to elaborate a bit on what she wrote to clarify what I meant. You are correct that the text never explicitly states that Rhaegar thinks his three children are the three heads of the dragon. And yes, I am relying mainly on the HotU vision as my source--and a bit of deductive reasoning. We can deduce from Rhaegar's comments in the vision, as well as Aemon's comments, that TPTWP is to have two "side kicks" and together they are the three heads of the dragon. Rhaegar and Aemon also assume (as do I, by the way) that the three heads are Targ descendants (I am a believer in A+J=T). This conclusion seems logical to me given that if the dragon has three heads--those three heads need to be "of the dragon" and a full Lannister is completely of the lion and not of the dragon--but if that Lannister is really the son of a Targ king . . .

As far as what the three heads are for, I think in context the three heads, one of them being TPTWP, are there to do what TPTWP is destined to do--which is understood to be win the second Battle for the Dawn (the first was also a fight against the Others, or so the "history" reports). Rhaegar would not appear so desperate to have the three heads unless he thought training them was necessary to save the world. We know when he thought that he himself was TPTWP he stopped reading books so much and started battle training. Logically, he would intend to put the three heads into the same sort of training as they grew up (if he had had the chance--and if he had been right about his children being the three heads).

With that in mind, I then take Rhaegar's statement that "there must be one more." Yes, as BQ87 notes, Rhaegar is "breaking the fourth wall" and talking to Dany, but it also has to be something he said or thought at that moment as well. It must do double duty as both an actual statement or thought at the time AND a message to Dany--because as only a message to her it would be there are two more, not one more. So on the literal level, the statement is what Rhaegar actually said or thought at that moment in time. In context, given that he was just talking about Aegon being TPTWP, and we know he had one other child, Rhaenys, stating that there must be one more can only mean that he must have one more child to be the third head. As only a message to Dany (as you seem to suggest), the statement would have been something like--there are two more--go find them. But he says there must be one more--it has to mean one more child to be "Team Dragon" with his other two children. Of course he was wrong because Aegon and Rhaenys are not two of the heads, but what matters here is what he believed.

As far as Jon being a legitimate child of Rhaegar, the significance really is not very important in terms of becoming King. I think he might become king and being the legit son of Rhaegar might be relevant to Jon being an acceptable candidate for some people--but it will not be the main reason he is made king (if he is made king)--it will be because he led the battle and saved the world in the Battle for the Dawn (and all the other credible contenders are dead, I suspect, by that time). No, the significance is that Jon is the Prince that was promised--not the Bastard that was promised. He is the leader of the charge who will team together with the other two heads (Dany and Tyrion, his aunt and half-uncle) to win the battle (with help from others--mainly the Starks, I think). It is not an accident that the Targs and Starks never inter-married. But with the birth of Jon, there is finally the merger of Ice and Fire--he is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified, enabling him to be TPTWP, and bring balance between the opposing forces in the world and save humanity. Sounds a bit corny, perhaps, but it looks to me like that is where GRRM is going.

Of course, to a certain extent, all of this analysis is conjecture. Until GRRM writes it down, we cannot be sure. But I think looking at the overall story structure and the information already provided, something along the lines of what I have outlined above makes the most sense. And I am not trying to take credit for all this analysis--this is a summary of months (maybe even years) of reading this board and trading ideas with the other talented analysts on this board. But these are the conclusion that I have reached based on that analysis. We will have to wait to see if I am right.

[Ser Creighton]

I know, I know. But he was looking at Dany when he spoke. Aemon thought he could be a head of the dragon, so I think the 3 heads are not necessarily siblings.

Now that I caught up since I posted this... I forgot about Halloween! So, don't murder anyone for dressing as Robert tonight! :laugh:

Well we all have our own takes on it. I tend to be cool with most theories on the subject unless they get offensive or become some sort of attack on a character.

So maybe I can address a little of what I think, although by no means is it any sort or consensus. I very much associate Jon and Dany and really don't get into favoring one above the other. I am not big on the whole mine is better than yours deal.

The dragon has 3 heads is a repetitive theme and there is enough symbolism of 3 dragons, and 3 heads to lend weight to it being of some significance. It does not matter what or who you think this is about but it does seem to be important.

Targ sigil.

Trios

The use of 3, now you don't have to believe in the Corn Code which for some odd reason got brought up again recently. But I have found a use for it, more than one really. One of those is simply looking at the examples I gave to see some of the different ways Martin employs 3 within the books. No theory just as examples of his writing.

3 Dragons

And of course the prophecies.

The book a Dance with dragons.

Real quickly before I give some examples let me just point out Aemon actually thought he was not one of the heads, he believed he was too old. He just really wanted to help his family which had been decimated before he passed. Seriously loved that guy, felt so bad for him and was glad Sam was with him.

The three heads as I recall primarily centers around Dany but I do not believe it is all about her. Now Dragon of course is often another name used when refereeing to Targaryens in Westeros.

Gonna start with Dance. Now the original Dance was a war which may get you to think the title of the book is referring to that. But it isn't it's a idea held by some that Dance actually refers to Jon and Dany and Possibly Tyrion or a third targ depending on personal belief. Aside from all the other Jon clues in the books and there are many, one of the largest clues appears to be the title of the 5th books. Within Dance, Jon and Dany share many parallels, there stories mirror eachothers. So this of course lends credence to the theory that Jon is a Targ and of course R+L=J. If you would like some examples of the parallels there are multiple threads, I have one that explores that aspect along with other parallels that exist within the books called Sun and Moon. But there are others that are just as good and relevant to the question.

So we get the HotU, which is like this giant Prophecy dump, vision quest, info dump.

So of course we have Rhaegar.

"The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads."."

Is this right is this accurate? Well we do have conformation on 3 out of the 4 doors that precede it. So chances are it's probably something that happened. Now maybe he is looking at Dany after all in the other rooms another shade spirit thing seemed to take notice of her as well.

"The second is a room filled with savagely slaughtered corpses which appear to have been attending a feast. A dead man with the head of a wolf, wearing an iron crown and holding a leg of lamb like a king might hold a sceptre, sits at a throne, his eyes looking at Dany with mute appeal."

Now of all the characters in the book and it is no knock against Jon, Dany is by far the POV most heavily associated with Rhaegar. Weather it's been her visions or just comments about her and Rhaegar she is tied to him. Now on it's simplest level what is this vision about? Rhaegar? I don't think so, the vision is actually emphasizing the son of Rhaegar. Now maybe this ties her to Aegon? It's possible but I will get to why I think it isn't in a bit.

"Again she sees the red door in Braavos, but then she is flying over the Dothraki sea, everything fleeing in terror before her. She can sense home beyond the door, "green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm". Then she sees Rhaegar in his armor, but when she lifts the visor of his helm the face within is her own. And then there is only pain, fire within her, and the whispering of stars."

Now of course Jon is a mystery, but that does not stop Rhaegar from being heavily connected to the Starks via Lyanna, which by association does connect him with Jon. (This is without using the R+L=j theory just to be clear, just showing a natural connection without using a theory.)

Jon is further connected to another Targ via his brother Bran. And yet another Targ via Aemon. It begins to appear that Stark and Targ are in fact intertwined. I can go into the Ghost and Raven theories but those seem rather obvious and don't really need me point them out more than just mentioning them.

Mother of Dragons

". . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . ."

The first mention of ice and fire in the series. This heavily associates Dany with this theme. It's also pointing out she needs to do something though this is not the first time a vision or dream has told her to do something.

Her fever in thrones did not hint at her to wake the Dragons, it actually tells her to do it. Generally this means to me Dany has certain things she needs to do, but why? Wake the dragons so she cant take over Essos in a series that is about Westeros? And does dragons have more than one meaning here, is it only speaking of the eggs in that dream or hinting at something else as well?

Jojen and Meera also mention Ice and fire and recent information has pact between two houses associated with this theme.

. . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . .

. . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . .

Child of three? Now this can go in a lot of directions, but the prophecy is about the mother of dragons. And as we know from Dany's chapters she is heavily associated with motherhood. Now it's not typical mother hood, but mother of dragons of course, and mother to her people. And it is the mother of Dragons who witnessed the vision of a Targaryen baby boy. And it is her visions that have been guiding and setting her on a path she does not fully understand yet, none of us really do.

Now of course whatever thoughts you have on what kind of mother she is are your own. But what I am referring to is how Martin the author is associating her to these things. So you have Dany associated with Rhaegar, in one dream actually replacing Rhaegar, associated with the Prince and Rhaegars son. Now of course Rhaegar can't help or hold his son, but Dany could. I mean come the girl bathed in the womb of the world beneath the Mother of Mountains, Martin is not being subtle with the theme.

But how is Dany really connected to Jon?

You know I don't want to exclude Jon so I won't. Jon has had his own visions and dreams. One of himself on the wall battling Wights, he repeatedly dreams of the Winterfell crypts. And one particular wolf dream where he sees Castle black where the Sun hides or sleeps. This is also where Jon happens to be sleeping at the time he is looking at his home.

Dany of course also has a vision of battling the Wights.

"That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened."

Again here she is presented as Rhaegar.

3 Fires must you light

. . . three heads has the dragon . . .

. . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .

. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .

. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

Again the three theme, and again the visions are telling her she has to do this and she will experience this. Though heavily cryptic you might start to ask yourself why the Dragon having 3 heads keeps repeating to Dany after she already woke the three dragons. Now personally I tend to interpret this as her visions saying it is not just you. Though some think it is a different person altogether and not associated with Dany at all. My simple response to that is if it has nothing to do with Dany she probably would not be the one having the visions about it.

Moving forward.

"Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name."

Not to be rude but Martin is basically hitting people over the head with hammer at this point. It's Rhaegar, it's the trident and I will let you figure out the name. But before you do.

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness."

Now some associate this part of the prophecy with various things. I am not going to associate the bride of fire with it in anyway other than she sees and smells it. It's association is already heavy enough in the books.

Now we can also go into blue flowers and a certain bard, family and and child. But I don't think it is required at this point. Now unless Martin has gone mad, I pretty sure he also knows what he associated the blue flowers with as well.

Now does this mean Jon will ride a dragon or carry a flaming sword, or they will kill each other or anything like that? I don't really need to go into that. Because the idea was to show the association between the two and I hope I have done that.

Really all I have to say is don't worry Jon Jon, momma' coming. Yeah I said. What? The girl adopts everything she gets her hands on and you may want to get used to this imagery.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Px1kFw09lU

Joking aside I do personally find it hard to ignore the connections, however a person wants to interpret them.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Last year:

http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s389/sj4iy/halloween2013_zps1b06ad8e.jpg

/I look terrible in that picture, but I always give them more attention than myself

Princess Unicorn in action XD

http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s389/sj4iy/halloween14_zps7c0e816f.jpg

http://rs1337.pbsrc.com/albums/o665/anitamcd/1031141959a_zpsdx4ujjjv.jpg~320x480

Inspired by my fourteen year old furbaby.

Happy Halloween!

Thanks for sharing guys! I'm a bit late to the Halloween party but I was out trick or treating and wrangling kiddos at the after party ( 9 yo girl sleepover party! yippee!)

Alia, all I can say is :D .... and sj4iy the kids are adorable... I remember when my daughter wanted to be something pretty (last week, and I have the mermaid costume to prove it) ... then inexplicably she decided to be this .

I guess the Grim Reaper is kind of ASoIaF-ish? :p

[sj4iy]

Thanks for sharing guys! I'm a bit late to the Halloween party but I was out trick or treating and wrangling kiddos at the after party ( 9 yo girl sleepover party! yippee!)

Alia, all I can say is :D .... and sj4iy the kids are adorable... I remember when my daughter wanted to be something pretty (last week, and I have the mermaid costume to prove it) ... then inexplicably she decided to be this .

I guess the Grim Reaper is kind of ASoIaF-ish? :p

LOL- that's awesome. My daughter got a bit wish washy after seeing her friends in princess costumes, but I spent too much on the unicorn outfit to be swayed. Still, your daughter makes a great grim reaper ;) My son didn't pick out his costume because he wasn't really sure what was going on- he really got it last night, though.

[Salafi Stannis]

Last year:

http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s389/sj4iy/halloween2013_zps1b06ad8e.jpg

/I look terrible in that picture, but I always give them more attention than myself

Don't worry, you look great for a 1000 year old Time Lord.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Speaking of Ice and Fire - Lyanna and Rhaegar... I was thinking how does Lyanna equal Ice? Sure she is of the North, but there is nothing Icy about her. The Starks are somewhat seperated into 2 categories; wild as wolf and cold as ice, to paraphrase. Lya definitely has the wolf blood mentality. The passionate type of personality. It seems that Lyanna is the Fiery one. Meanwhile Rhaegar is more laid back and not very fiery at all, except that he is Targaryen.

Add to this, the new info from the world book

Rhaegar has Blackwood blood from the North as much as he has Targ blood

So what's really going on here. Ice and fire, or fire and earth, or icy fire and earthy ice :)

[UnmaskedLurker]

Speaking of Ice and Fire - Lyanna and Rhaegar... I was thinking how does Lyanna equal Ice? Sure she is of the North, but there is nothing Icy about her. The Starks are somewhat seperated into 2 categories; wild as wolf and cold as ice, to paraphrase. Lya definitely has the wolf blood mentality. The passionate type of personality. It seems that Lyanna is the Fiery one. Meanwhile Rhaegar is more laid back and not very fiery at all, except that he is Targaryen.

Add to this, the new info from the world book

Rhaegar has Blackwood blood from the North as much as he has Targ blood

So what's really going on here. Ice and fire, or fire and earth, or icy fire and earthy ice :)

The family sword of the Starks is named "Ice" so I think that House Stark represent Ice in the same way that House Targ represents Fire.

[BearQueen87]

Yes, I don't think it's just blood of the First Men, but it's something more to do with the Starks who are heavily associated with winter, specifically.

[Alia of the knife]

So friggin cute, love the kicks on little Princess Unicorn.

Alia look out someone left a Bear on the chair next to you. It looks hungry.

So jealous I almost always dress up and I can't this year. Everyone gets to have fun but me. I was at least thinking I would get the usual mob of kids early on, which is always entertaining, but it went from snow flurries to sleet to hail. You know whats interesting about Tricks and treats? The entire basis of it seems to come from Hansel and Gretel. Adult lures kid to house with candy, kid plays trick on adult. Though nobody ever does the trick anymore. That's why I make kids actually say trick or treat, even the old teenagers who are looking for handouts. Then I tell them I want the trick as I eat the candy in front of them. I am not giving away my candy, you got to earn it and the trick better be good or in the oven they go.

So what did you make the hubby wear?

Dwight's unicorn debate reminds me of every do Targs have dragon blood thread ever posted.

Thanks, like I said "DA bear" is not quite as robust as he use to be. And it was quite a sight to see what some of the men came up with, (at the last minute), for a costume.

There was "Jake" the State Farm guy in just his red polo and khakis with "Flo" from Progressive, lol. :lol:

One guy came as an a@$hole, with literally, a cardboard cut-out of a butt with his face in the center. :wacko:

Really? :shocked:

And a great run-down on Dani. (Loved the cartoon reference as well), but is the conclusion more or less, that Rhaegar was trying to send Dani to Jon because he is in danger?

I suppose in that spirit realm, he would know his other children are dead?

Thanks for sharing guys! I'm a bit late to the Halloween party but I was out trick or treating and wrangling kiddos at the after party ( 9 yo girl sleepover party! yippee!)

Alia, all I can say is :D .... and sj4iy the kids are adorable... I remember when my daughter wanted to be something pretty (last week, and I have the mermaid costume to prove it) ... then inexplicably she decided to be this .

I guess the Grim Reaper is kind of ASoIaF-ish? :P

Oh gods, a sleep over with a bunch of girls is more frightening than a hoard of zombies, lol. I don't have children, but I've helped chaperone a couple of times, (though, you know me, I'm not sure I helped the situation). :laugh:

But your daughter is just too adorable. And yes, the Reaper is very aSoIaF, and her choice just seems so Arya. :D

And for the sake of clarity, I do have a pretty mean flat iron that I usually use to tame that ginger mess, lol

LOL- that's awesome. My daughter got a bit wish washy after seeing her friends in princess costumes, but I spent too much on the unicorn outfit to be swayed. Still, your daughter makes a great grim reaper ;) My son didn't pick out his costume because he wasn't really sure what was going on- he really got it last night, though.

Well, they had to be the cutest kids in the neighborhood. My co-workers son just had his first Halloween as a participant, and he was having NO part of the costumes.

The poor little guy had to stay home with his grandparents so his sister could go out.

Speaking of Ice and Fire - Lyanna and Rhaegar... I was thinking how does Lyanna equal Ice? Sure she is of the North, but there is nothing Icy about her. The Starks are somewhat seperated into 2 categories; wild as wolf and cold as ice, to paraphrase. Lya definitely has the wolf blood mentality. The passionate type of personality. It seems that Lyanna is the Fiery one. Meanwhile Rhaegar is more laid back and not very fiery at all, except that he is Targaryen.

Add to this, the new info from the world book

Rhaegar has Blackwood blood from the North as much as he has Targ blood

So what's really going on here. Ice and fire, or fire and earth, or icy fire and earthy ice :)

The Starks are the heriditary "kings of Winter, and I daresay have more royal blood than the Targs. actually do. And I don't have my book yet, but I understand that the Starks had quite the empire at one time, with lands extending beyond the Wall?

Prior to Aegons arrival, Rhaegar may not have even been considered for Lyannas hand.

But, you make a good point on their personalities, and maybe thats just GRRM being ironic, because after all, Lyanna does end up being Rhaegars knight in shining, mismatched armor. ;)

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I just find it humorous that the personalities of L and somewhat R are opposite of their houses. The somewhat hot-headed girl of the Icy Winterfell blood and the cool as a cucumber guy of the Dragon blood.

Both houses have fallen away from their ancestors. The Kings of Winter became the Kings in the North. The Dragon riders lost their Dragons and have Fire and Blood in name only. Moving away from their magical backgrounds to a more political role. Until the current story begins. Now that Magic is on the rise, I wonder just how far ,Dany and Jon for example, will throwback to their roots?

[Ser Creighton]

Speaking of Ice and Fire - Lyanna and Rhaegar... I was thinking how does Lyanna equal Ice? Sure she is of the North, but there is nothing Icy about her. The Starks are somewhat seperated into 2 categories; wild as wolf and cold as ice, to paraphrase. Lya definitely has the wolf blood mentality. The passionate type of personality. It seems that Lyanna is the Fiery one. Meanwhile Rhaegar is more laid back and not very fiery at all, except that he is Targaryen.

Add to this, the new info from the world book

Rhaegar has Blackwood blood from the North as much as he has Targ blood

So what's really going on here. Ice and fire, or fire and earth, or icy fire and earthy ice :)

Jojen and Meera give you the answer. It's all the same. It's about unity. A Yin Yang has a dark half and a light half you will see the symbolism of the yin yang all over the books. But it's cyclical, the yin yang turns, one leads to the other. But the yin yang is not about halves, it's about the whole, it's one thing.

Rhaegar and Lyanna, fire and ice. Kings of winter, it's not real ice of course, it's just the symbolism, north and south, east and west. Rhaegar was not a walking ball of fire, the Targs are associated with fire and the Starks winter. But that story is over, they have passed on. But the story repeats, like history repeats, the symbolism will inverse like when when the sun sets the moon rises. But they both do the same thing and yes that was a shameless plug. The woman will be fire the man will be ice. Light and Night.

Stannis and the Night King or the Light King and the Night King. Mel is to Stannis what the Night King was to the light king but the symbolism is inverted. But they are doing the same things. Note that Dany on multiple occasions is seen as Rhaegar.

[UVA]

Alia, all I can say is :D .... and sj4iy the kids are adorable... I remember when my daughter wanted to be something pretty (last week, and I have the mermaid costume to prove it) ... then inexplicably she decided to be this .

Oh can I join the postmortem Halloween 2014? So sweet Alia! Lol, my family and friends all wanted me to be Cersei this year. I may try to find her costume on sale today to wear for next year -- the dress is actually quite pretty and well-made.

Absolutely adorable sj4iy! Aww, yes Lady G, I remember when my girls wanted to be sweet pretty princesses, well not my blonde sufer girl who has typically wanted to something edgy, i.e., at three she was, in her own words, the "Spider Princess Ballerina". But it gets worse, we went from this, and this to this in just a few years. *help*

OT (slightly) a good pal from the forum and her boyfriend dressed up as Lyanna and Rhaegar last year. They looked great! ;)

[Roose Bolton's Onesie]

George responded to a question about his expanded readership and whether the internet has (or hasn't) had an impact on the unpredictability of his writing. I thought it might be worth sharing his response for the next time someone comes and says something along the lines of 'R+L=J is obvious, everyone knows about it, GRRM is going to change things in order to pull the rug out from under us.' :)

http://youtu.be/TB5AU_bCZJg?t=1h22m17s

(Just in case the link doesn't play at the correct time, George talks about it from around 1:22:17 onwards.)

[Alia of the knife]

Oh can I join the postmortem Halloween 2014? So sweet Alia! Lol, my family and friends all wanted me to be Cersei this year. I may try to find her costume on sale today to wear for next year -- the dress is actually quite pretty and well-made.

Absolutely adorable sj4iy! Aww, yes Lady G, I remember when my girls wanted to be sweet pretty princesses, well not my blonde sufer girl who has typically wanted to something edgy, i.e., at three she was, in her own words, the "Spider Princess Ballerina". But it gets worse, we went from this, and this to this in just a few years. *help*

OT (slightly) a good pal from the forum and her boyfriend dressed up as Lyanna and Rhaegar last year. They looked great! ;)

Just adorable. These are the memories that children will cherish in the rough times, and the wonderful parents who created them.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Oh can I join the postmortem Halloween 2014? So sweet Alia! Lol, my family and friends all wanted me to be Cersei this year. I may try to find her costume on sale today to wear for next year -- the dress is actually quite pretty and well-made.

Absolutely adorable sj4iy! Aww, yes Lady G, I remember when my girls wanted to be sweet pretty princesses, well not my blonde sufer girl who has typically wanted to something edgy, i.e., at three she was, in her own words, the "Spider Princess Ballerina". But it gets worse, we went from this, and this to this in just a few years. *help*

OT (slightly) a good pal from the forum and her boyfriend dressed up as Lyanna and Rhaegar last year. They looked great! ;)

They are adorable! :)

And lol the changes-- I guess all we can do is roll with it. I see that pink wig in my future :lol: