R+L=J v.111

[Alia of the knife]

Oh gods, BACK to the Greyjoy chapter for investigation.

[JonSnow4President]

Not anything important, but had never seen this mentioned before.

Jon swelled with pride. "Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I'm the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle."

-GOT, Jon 1

Sounds like another Stark who was known to be half a horse herself.

[sj4iy]

Not anything important, but had never seen this mentioned before.

Sounds like another Stark who was known to be half a horse herself.

Yeah, there are several quotes about Jon being an excellent rider...when his friends are talking about how he's sure to be a ranger because he's the best sword and the best rider, and how he manages to pull himself up on the horse when escaping the Wildlings without saddle or bridle and a sword in one hand.

He definitely gets it from someone ;)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Now we know who Davos' ship Black Betha was named after. I've sometimes wondered if there might be some sneaky symbolism in ship names.

Nick Cave has a song about it.

[Half Of Tormunds Member]

Sj4ij, I saw something in another thread that might be relevant for your PDF of quotes. Or is your PDF only for king quotes?

Anyway, saw this below and got me thinking.

It's in a Cat chapter near the start of GOT when Cat, Ned and Leywin are discussing what to do with the children when Ned rides south.

Cat recalls a memory she has of her asking about Jon's mother.

"That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood and that is all you need to know."

That last sentence sticks out a mile.

[Ser Lepus]

It also gives clues that it would be accepted if done in private and not revealed until after it was consummated.

And with Rhaegar, he goes an extra step. Married, consummated, and babeh.

I was speaking about how many people claim that old Rickard Stark would have gladly accepted a polygamous marriage if Rhaegar had asked before doing the deed.

I think that, if Aerys had not killed Brandon and Rickard Stark and Rhaegar had taken Lyanna as a second wife, maybe there wouldn't be a rebellion, but Lyanna would still be despised and called a concubine or whore, and the northeners would still feel dishonored and insulted. And the Faith might have never accepted that marriage as legitimate.

[BearQueen87]

I was speaking about how many people claim that old Rickard Stark would have gladly accepted a polygamous marriage if Rhaegar had asked before doing the deed.

I think that, if Aerys had not killed Brandon and Rickard Stark and Rhaegar had taken Lyanna as a second wife, maybe there wouldn't be a rebellion, but Lyanna would still be despised and called a concubine or whore, and the northeners would still feel dishonored and insulted. And the Faith might have never accepted that marriage as legitimate.

Oh, I'm sure Lyanna would have been whispered about at court and amongst the high houses, marriage or not.

As for the Faith:

1) Do I think they would have been happy? No

2) Do I think they tend to do whatever the crown tells them? Yes.

And if RL were married in the Old Faith, then the Faith of the 7 can't do anything. They have no jurisdiction over those marriages. (I still think they were married in both ways)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

And if RL were married in the Old Faith, then the Faith of the 7 can't do anything. They have no jurisdiction over those marriages. (I still think they were married in both ways)

Both ways out of three?

a) Faith of the Seven

and

b.) Old Gods b)

and maybe also the goode

c) Old Valyrian Custom?

;-)

[BearQueen87]

Both ways out of three?

a) Faith of the Seven

and

b.) Old Gods B)

and maybe also the goode

c) Old Valyrian Custom?

;-)

If RL forgo one of those, I actually think they'd forgo the Faith of the Seven. Old Gods (First Men, Winter, Ice, North) and the Valyrian Custom (Fire). Nice big ol' Ice and Fire motif there.

especially with the World book telling us about the (aborted) Pact of Ice and Fire involving a Stark and a Targ marrying

[UnmaskedLurker]

If RL forgo one of those, I actually think they'd forgo the Faith of the Seven. Old Gods (First Men, Winter, Ice, North) and the Valyrian Custom (Fire). Nice big ol' Ice and Fire motif there.

especially with the World book telling us about the (aborted) Pact of Ice and Fire involving a Stark and a Targ marrying

I kinda like it--but then we lose our good old traveling septon from the picture and I was hoping to get his report eventually on details regarding the wedding.

[sj4iy]

Sj4ij, I saw something in another thread that might be relevant for your PDF of quotes. Or is your PDF only for king quotes?

Anyway, saw this below and got me thinking.

It's in a Cat chapter near the start of GOT when Cat, Ned and Leywin are discussing what to do with the children when Ned rides south.

Cat recalls a memory she has of her asking about Jon's mother.

"That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood and that is all you need to know."

That last sentence sticks out a mile.

Wow, did I forget that one? Thanks, I'll add it!

[UnmaskedLurker]

Wow, did I forget that one? Thanks, I'll add it!

Yeah--that is one that I have heard many people site over and over again. I am surprised we all missed it when looking at your list. Good catch by CR.

[Ser Lepus]

Oh, I'm sure Lyanna would have been whispered about at court and amongst the high houses, marriage or not.

As for the Faith:

1) Do I think they would have been happy? No

2) Do I think they tend to do whatever the crown tells them? Yes.

And if RL were married in the Old Faith, then the Faith of the 7 can't do anything. They have no jurisdiction over those marriages. (I still think they were married in both ways)

Even if the High Septon bowed to Rhaegar, the rest of the Faith would still whisper that Lyanna was a whore and her children bastards. Having septons calling Lyanna's children lillegitimate bastards would be a big deal. What if Aegon died and Rhaegar tried to make Lyanna's son his heir, and the septons support Viserys instead?.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Even if the High Septon bowed to Rhaegar, the rest of the Faith would still whisper that Lyanna was a whore and her children bastards. Having septons calling Lyanna's children lillegitimate bastards would be a big deal. What if Aegon died and Rhaegar tried to make Lyanna's son his heir, and the septons support Viserys instead?.

Rhaegar believed his three children would be the three heads of the dragon. While he was political, he was more interested in making sure his children were prepared for the Battle for the Dawn. Either they were prepared and win -- or the world would be doomed. I don't think he cared very much what the septons thought--they did not really have any power at that point any way.

[BearQueen87]

Even if the High Septon bowed to Rhaegar, the rest of the Faith would still whisper that Lyanna was a whore and her children bastards. Having septons calling Lyanna's children lillegitimate bastards would be a big deal. What if Aegon died and Rhaegar tried to make Lyanna's son his heir, and the septons support Viserys instead?.

I honestly don't know because Rhaegar's plan seems rather nebulous at the moment.

Just from the world book, it seems like he was much more shrewd that people give him credit for and because of that I think he had some sort of plan, but there are so many variables that can make that plan moot. Baby Jon would have been used as a pawn if he was legit or not. What happens if he grew up (bastard) and was perceived to be more kingly than Aegon? We've got the Blackfyre situation all over again. What if Jon grew up (legit); he and his mother would be used non stop in the Game of Thrones. I don't know how Rhaegar planned to deal with all that, but given how the World book sells R as someone clever and capable and political (not just obsessed with prophecy) then I believe that he THOUGHT he had a plan for all this, so marriage was still on the table.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I honestly don't know because Rhaegar's plan seems rather nebulous at the moment.

Just from the world book, it seems like he was much more shrewd that people give him credit for and because of that I think he had some sort of plan, but there are so many variables that can make that plan moot. Baby Jon would have been used as a pawn if he was legit or not. What happens if he grew up (bastard) and was perceived to be more kingly than Aegon? We've got the Blackfyre situation all over again. What if Jon grew up (legit); he and his mother would be used non stop in the Game of Thrones. I don't know how Rhaegar planned to deal with all that, but given how the World book sells R as someone clever and capable and political (not just obsessed with prophecy) then I believe that he THOUGHT he had a plan for all this, so marriage was still on the table.

IMHO, nothing in the world book changes the basic fact that the fate of the world was at stake. No matter the political risk, R needed to have the three heads so that he could train them to win the BftD. He probably thought that raising them together as a team would result in different outcome than the other situations where they were basically raised separately and became rivals. But whatever the political risk, the fate of humanity hung in the balance regarding birthing the third head.

[sj4iy]

Yeah--that is one that I have heard many people site over and over again. I am surprised we all missed it when looking at your list. Good catch by CR.

I meant to add it, I know. Must have just skipped it.

[Half Of Tormunds Member]

Woop! My first meaningful contribution ;)

Now to just get my username to show up properly [emoji15]

ETA: Now it works :)

[JonSnow4President]

I meant to add it, I know. Must have just skipped it.

Dunno if this is on your list or not, but it's more of a 2 part quote. In Ned's chapter where he and Robert go down to the quips, it says something like "And Ned loved her with all his heart." In the Catelyn chapter shortly thereafter, she thinks that Ned must have loved her (Jon's mother) fiercely. Loved that put in over a relatively short time period. Wouldn't have thought a thing of it on my first read through, but really hits on the reread. At work atm, but can get the full quotes later if needed.

[MtnLion]

Even if the High Septon bowed to Rhaegar, the rest of the Faith would still whisper that Lyanna was a whore and her children bastards. Having septons calling Lyanna's children lillegitimate bastards would be a big deal. What if Aegon died and Rhaegar tried to make Lyanna's son his heir, and the septons support Viserys instead?.

Jeez, it isn't like Joffrey (Tommen and Myrcella) aren't being rightfully called illegitmate bastards behind their backs. It really doesn't make a lot of difference, does it?