[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[Ingelheim]

They do, but funding tourney prizes beyond value seen thus far is a pretty large personal funds carrot to dangle for a prospect not guaranteed to work out.

If I had to guess, I would say that the funds came from a frontman somewhere else. As I said upthread, the Martells would have had a large vested interest in getting Rhaenys on the throne.

This is one of the keys here. Aerys and his "smells Dornish" seems suspicious.

[PrettyPig]

This is one of the keys here. Aerys and his "smells Dornish" seems suspicious.

Yeah, I'm reminded of that convo between Oberyn and Tyrion where Oberyn said he and Elia were as close as Jaime/Cersei, to which Tyrion thinks "Gods, I hope not" or something to that effect.

But anyway, as I mentioned, if Dornish laws of inheritance suddenly became applicable to the IT, Dorne would find themselves in a big position of win with Rhaenys if a deal had been struck behind closed doors. It seems from book text that the Martells have been trying to quietly get themselves back into position in KL for a while, so I would not be surprised if this was part of Doran's long game.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

pre-Harrenhal tourney

Tywin Lannister, Hand, of course

Qarlton Chelsted, M o Coin - pro-Aerys

Lucerys Velaryon. M o Ships - pro-Aerys

Symond Staunton, M o Laws - pro-Aerys

Varys, M o Whisperers - pro-Varys

GM - Pycelle

LCKG-Gerold Hightower

[Ingelheim]

pre-Harrenhal tourney

Tywin Lannister, Hand, of course

Qarlton Chelsted, M o Coin - pro-Aerys

Lucerys Velaryon. M o Ships - pro-Aerys

Symond Stauton, M o Laws - pro-Aerys

Varys, M o Whisperers - pro-Varys

GM - Pycelle

LCKG-Gerold Hightower

And pro-Aerys. Remember how he warned the Kings twice? First about Harrenhal. Later about Tywin.

[PrettyPig]

pre-Harrenhal tourney

Tywin Lannister, Hand, of course

Qarlton Chelsted, M o Coin - pro-Aerys

Lucerys Velaryon. M o Ships - pro-Aerys

Symond Staunton, M o Laws - pro-Aerys

Varys, M o Whisperers - pro-Varys

GM - Pycelle

LCKG-Gerold Hightower

So this tells me that either Rhaegar used his own money for the tourney, which seems unlikely to me given the value, or it was pledged to him by someone else in return for an even bigger prize.

[BearQueen87]

So this tells me that either Rhaegar used his own money for the tourney, which seems unlikely to me given the value, or it was pledged to him by someone else in return for an even bigger prize.

Why don't you think Rhaegar would have used his own money? Surely he had enough.

Are you hinting at Tywin for your second thought?

[UnmaskedLurker]

This brings back the old debate about what part of the KG vow they were following. Was it the part about protecting the king or

And the old debate about whether guarding the king takes precedence over following orders -- including the instance in The Princess and the Queen where Larys orders two KG Knights to leave Aegon II to flee King's Landing with a non-KG knight, and they obey the order.

This is probably not the place to re-hash those old debates. But what is new here is that we now have explicit confirmation that Viserys was Aerys' heir while Aegon and Rhaenys were still alive. And it does not say that Aerys changed the order of succession and named him heir -- he was just the "new heir."

Anyway, if Viserys was not automatically the new heir, and Aerys had to change the order of succession after the Trident, we have to make a big leap of logic before thinking that the 3KG believed Jon was the new king. We have to believe that:

1. The KG know that Viserys, Rhaella, and Darry fled to Dragonstone (stated explicitly in Ned's fever dream, so they do know this)

2. They know that Aegon is dead (this is just an assumption, since it is never mentioned in the text) -- otherwise, Jon can't be king

3. But their source failed to inform them that Viserys was named as the new heir.

Why would their source tell them (1) and (2) but not (3)? To me, that would be a big plot hole.

The news presumably was from a source in Dorne telling them about the events of the war. Viserys going to Dragonstone would be public--the death of the royal family at the time of the sack would be public--a declaration by Aerys that Viserys was now his formal heir would be known by the insiders at court, but not necessarily made public, at least not in the middle of the war. So it is quite plausible that the information about the death of Rheagar, Aegon and Aerys, as well as the movement of Viserys to Dragonstone, would be known to the KGs' sources, but not a written pronouncement regarding who was named heir. I admit that it would have been better if WoIaF clarified why Viserys rather than Aegon was considered to be the new heir, but it is not unrealistic that this particular news, at a time of war, would not have been deseminated widely--particularly to the Dornish who would be angry about overlooking Elia's children

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yep, that's always been my take on that passage as well.

How would Ned know that the KG were trying to overthrow the King?

I see this:

1-Lyanna tells Ned she married Rhaegar. Thus, Jon is Rhaegar's rightful heir, not Viserys.

2-That doesn't mean the KG weren't trying to overthrow Aerys. It just means Ned didn't know it.

I mean, Ned couldn't have known everything.

Yes, Yes and Yes.

Ok, let's put or personal wishes aside for a moment. First, yes, we all acknowledge that the book could get some bias, but we can't distrust everything from it, and accept that there are hints there. And that definitely includes that some things mentioned, while not completely explained, are there for us to add what we already know. For instance, I'm sure Yandel didn't know what Rhaegar did in the Riverlands, only that he went' there with his men, and as later he met Lyanna, he's simply assuming that was his purpose to leave KL. Also, Ned hasn't read the book, he doesn't know what Rhaegar's intentions were: he couldn't know that the KG had been conspiring along with the Prince to remove Aerys, hence, he doesn't know all the facts, and he considers them loyal by only taking what he knows: that Rhaegar loved his sister, had a child with him and the KG stayed with this boy who was also the heir of the Prince.

We are also forgetting something very important motif in the books: that vows are shit. Putting aside Jaime's behavior post-rebellion (just for the sake of this argument, please), what he did was noble: he saved KL and he kept the secret of the King's real intentions. One thing contradict his vows while the other one, didn't. And that's his main personal debate in the books: what vows to fulfil and which don't.

I suppose we could take the KG in the same regard. We know, according to GRRM, that Arthur DID do something -or try to- in order to stop Aerys. Personally, I believed Rhaegar had nothing to do with it, but AWOIAF has kinda prove me wrong: he was indeed involved and he wanted to do something. This was a main priority for Rhaegar. Also, not only was Arthur involved, but Lewyn Martell, another KG. So, this is hinting that the noble guard of Aerys went against their vows to fulfil a mayor good: remove a dangerous King and put a better one in place. At least five of them (I'm sure Darry was on it too).

As I said, the things Yandel doesn't know are the ones which involve Rhaegar's intentions about the prophecy, but let's also consider this: in a book that is intended for a man who hates the guy, everything related to any odd behaviour of Rhaegar is suspiciously missing. It could have taken little for him to say "...and while the court was divided, Prince Rhaegar couldn't get his nose out of his books and daydreamings of dragons and old prophecies".

But he's not saying that, because honestly, I think Rhaegar's intentions about anything related to the prophecy were not as important as we think they are. Rhaegar is portrayed as smart, and definitely not an airhead that played his harp all day ignoring his duties. He knew Westeros was on the edge of a civil war at some point, as his father was going mad every day, or at least he realised the severity of the situation too late. Does Rhaegar look like the man who would say "yeah, I accept my father is going madder every day. Come, friends, let's go and find Lyanna Stark, whom I plan to bed to father a messiah"? I'm sorry, but I don't see it like that. because first, to being able to fight the eventual apocalypse, he needed to be alive, he and his children, and Aerys was a danger to everybody. What's the point on having three baby warriors if your country is in a civil war when you don't even have the power to actually prepare them to face their fates? Makes little sense to me.

[Ingelheim]

JCRB, excellent as ever.

[sj4iy]

Why don't you think Rhaegar would have used his own money? Surely he had enough.

Are you hinting at Tywin for your second thought?

Rhaegar decided to win the tourney in order to recoup some of his costs XD

[Ygrain]

Rhaegar decided to win the tourney in order to recoup some of his costs XD

You've hit the nail! That's why he had to win, crowning Lyanna was merely a ruse!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Rhaegar decided to win the tourney in order to recoup some of his costs XD

"As my attempt of rebellion didn't work, I'm going to need the money back"

"My prince, that would be incredibly suspicious".

"Crap... all right, Arthur, get my lance".

[BearQueen87]

[snip]

Ok, I have a few thoughts, but this was really nicely put forth and I'm just spitballing ideas now.

1) I agree that, from what I've read so far, Rhaegar is being presented in a much more positive light that one might expect given the intended (Baratheon) audience and therefore I'm more inclined to believe that Rhaegar really was quite politically savvy--though, I never really doubted it. I just thought he was more focused on other things.

2) Apart from Aemon, who living at the start of GOT, would even know that Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy? JonCon doesn't give any hints which either meant that JonCon wasn't as close to the Prince as he thought OR means that Rhaegar prophetically inclined as we think. The Maester can't just stick your suggested annotation in there in order to discredit Rhaegar if he doesn't even have an inkling that Rhaegar is dreaming of dragons and prophecies, not when he's actually writing Rhaegar as a better guy than one might expect, again, given the audience. It would look too disjointed to the overall tale--Rhaegar, politically savvy with all these rumors of taking down Aerys, but apparently also prophetically hungry and ignoring the realm? I simply don't think the Maester knew about Rhaegar's prophetic leanings.

3) With #2 said, I don't think we can take prophecy out altogether. If anything, politics and the magical prophetic aspects are working together, which goes to one of the larger ideas of the series: the game and the magic occurrences not being separate stories. So politically savvy Rhaegar has also begun to fall in love with Lady Lyanna Stark. They communicate. They develop certain feelings. Rhaegar's wife can no longer have children (unless Pycelle is lying his ass off, which ...hell, maybe). So they form a plan that works for both sides of Rhaegar's desires: a political alliance with the North to aid in his plan against Aerys, but also that ensures his three-headed dragon prophetic ideals.

Rhaegar decided to win the tourney in order to recoup some of his costs XD

Done! lol!

[MtnLion]

According to app, which is in between semi-canon and canon, the way I see it, Rhaenys was stated to have been 3 when she died.

Aegon, according to SSM, was 12 to 14 months old when he died

Correct, GRRM says that Aegon was about 12 months old when he was killed. Tywin says that Rhaenys was "two, maybe three" when she was killed. It implies that it was near her third birthday, either just before, or just after.

[PrettyPig]

Rhaegar decided to win the tourney in order to recoup some of his costs XD

If I had tens of thousands of gold dragons on the line, I'd unhorse every knight there too! lol

No, actually, if anyone I would suspect Doran Martell, due to the gain the Martells would see from a secret deal putting Rhaenys next in line.

Then again, there is another party (or two parties, rather), that have been playing an even longer game than Doran Martell and are even more flush with gold - one of whom is right there in KL to sow chaos and discontent.....

[Pigeon Pie]

Yes, Yes and Yes.

Ok, let's put or personal wishes aside for a moment. First, yes, we all acknowledge that the book could get some bias, but we can't distrust everything from it, and accept that there are hints there. And that definitely includes that some things mentioned, while not completely explained, are there for us to add what we already know. For instance, I'm sure Yandel didn't know what Rhaegar did in the Riverlands, only that he went' there with his men, and as later he met Lyanna, he's simply assuming that was his purpose to leave KL. Also, Ned hasn't read the book, he doesn't know what Rhaegar's intentions were: he couldn't know that the KG had been conspiring along with the Prince to remove Aerys, hence, he doesn't know all the facts, and he considers them loyal by only taking what he knows: that Rhaegar loved his sister, had a child with him and the KG stayed with this boy who was also the heir of the Prince.

We are also forgetting something very important motif in the books: that vows are shit. Putting aside Jaime's behavior post-rebellion (just for the sake of this argument, please), what he did was noble: he saved KL and he kept the secret of the King's real intentions. One thing contradict his vows while the other one, didn't. And that's his main personal debate in the books: what vows to fulfil and which don't.

I suppose we could take the KG in the same regard. We know, according to GRRM, that Arthur DID do something -or try to- in order to stop Aerys. Personally, I believed Rhaegar had nothing to do with it, but AWOIAF has kinda prove me wrong: he was indeed involved and he wanted to do something. This was a main priority for Rhaegar. Also, not only was Arthur involved, but Lewyn Martell, another KG. So, this is hinting that the noble guard of Aerys went against their vows to fulfil a mayor good: remove a dangerous King and put a better one in place. At least five of them (I'm sure Darry was on it too).

As I said, the things Yandel doesn't know are the ones which involve Rhaegar's intentions about the prophecy, but let's also consider this: in a book that is intended for a man who hates the guy, everything related to any odd behaviour of Rhaegar is suspiciously missing. It could have taken little for him to say "...and while the court was divided, Prince Rhaegar couldn't get his nose out of his books and daydreamings of dragons and old prophecies".

But he's not saying that, because honestly, I think Rhaegar's intentions about anything related to the prophecy were not as important as we think they are. Rhaegar is portrayed as smart, and definitely not an airhead that played his harp all day ignoring his duties. He knew Westeros was on the edge of a civil war at some point, as his father was going mad every day, or at least he realised the severity of the situation too late. Does Rhaegar look like the man who would say "yeah, I accept my father is going madder every day. Come, friends, let's go and find Lyanna Stark, whom I plan to bed to father a messiah"? I'm sorry, but I don't see it like that. because first, to being able to fight the eventual apocalypse, he needed to be alive, he and his children, and Aerys was a danger to everybody. What's the point on having three baby warriors if your country is in a civil war when you don't even have the power to actually prepare them to face their fates? Makes little sense to me.

You've summed it all up.

Whether he wanted to or no, Rhaegar was simply forced to play the game of thrones. It's exactly that he couldn't prepare for an apocalyptic war with another war on hand, and a crazy king who constantly did stupid shit and fucked things up. First he had to clear the ground for himself to have the time and means on hand.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm surrounded by people now and I can't stop laughing at the idea of Rhaegar moving to the Tower of Joy because he lost all of his money and couldn't pay the rent in Dragonstone... hahahhahaha...

[sj4iy]

Yes, Yes and Yes.

Ok, let's put or personal wishes aside for a moment. First, yes, we all acknowledge that the book could get some bias, but we can't distrust everything from it, and accept that there are hints there. And that definitely includes that some things mentioned, while not completely explained, are there for us to add what we already know. For instance, I'm sure Yandel didn't know what Rhaegar did in the Riverlands, only that he went' there with his men, and as later he met Lyanna, he's simply assuming that was his purpose to leave KL. Also, Ned hasn't read the book, he doesn't know what Rhaegar's intentions were: he couldn't know that the KG had been conspiring along with the Prince to remove Aerys, hence, he doesn't know all the facts, and he considers them loyal by only taking what he knows: that Rhaegar loved his sister, had a child with him and the KG stayed with this boy who was also the heir of the Prince.

We are also forgetting something very important motif in the books: that vows are shit. Putting aside Jaime's behavior post-rebellion (just for the sake of this argument, please), what he did was noble: he saved KL and he kept the secret of the King's real intentions. One thing contradict his vows while the other one, didn't. And that's his main personal debate in the books: what vows to fulfil and which don't.

I suppose we could take the KG in the same regard. We know, according to GRRM, that Arthur DID do something -or try to- in order to stop Aerys. Personally, I believed Rhaegar had nothing to do with it, but AWOIAF has kinda prove me wrong: he was indeed involved and he wanted to do something. This was a main priority for Rhaegar. Also, not only was Arthur involved, but Lewyn Martell, another KG. So, this is hinting that the noble guard of Aerys went against their vows to fulfil a mayor good: remove a dangerous King and put a better one in place. At least five of them (I'm sure Darry was on it too).

As I said, the things Yandel doesn't know are the ones which involve Rhaegar's intentions about the prophecy, but let's also consider this: in a book that is intended for a man who hates the guy, everything related to any odd behaviour of Rhaegar is suspiciously missing. It could have taken little for him to say "...and while the court was divided, Prince Rhaegar couldn't get his nose out of his books and daydreamings of dragons and old prophecies".

But he's not saying that, because honestly, I think Rhaegar's intentions about anything related to the prophecy were not as important as we think they are. Rhaegar is portrayed as smart, and definitely not an airhead that played his harp all day ignoring his duties. He knew Westeros was on the edge of a civil war at some point, as his father was going mad every day, or at least he realised the severity of the situation too late. Does Rhaegar look like the man who would say "yeah, I accept my father is going madder every day. Come, friends, let's go and find Lyanna Stark, whom I plan to bed to father a messiah"? I'm sorry, but I don't see it like that. because first, to being able to fight the eventual apocalypse, he needed to be alive, he and his children, and Aerys was a danger to everybody. What's the point on having three baby warriors if your country is in a civil war when you don't even have the power to actually prepare them to face their fates? Makes little sense to me.

It depends on what Rhaegar thought was coming. If you believed that a great apocalypse was coming and only something you can do can stop it, then how important does deposing your father suddenly seem in the long run?

Of course, we could debate speculation all day- in the end, the facts are that Rhaegar named Lyanna the QoLaB, ran off with Lyanna with his closest friends and confidantes, and didn't come back until well after the war began. The facts are that Rhaegar cared about the prophecies, even thinking that he was the hero they spoke of at first, and then his son next. He believed there had to be a third head of the dragon.

I don't think we can suddenly declare that Rhaegar didn't care about the prophecies just because a new book talks about him as more politically involved than first thought- that doesn't automatically mean that he wasn't still interested in fulfilling the prophecy.

[Ygrain]

I'm surrounded by people now and I can't stop laughing at the idea of Rhaegar moving to the Tower of Joy because he lost all of his money and couldn't pay the rent in Dragonstone... hahahhahaha...

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[Moondancer]

I think that Rhaegar's throne gaming mirrors the gaming of the current Westerosi, and the supernatural elements is disregarded by the majority, which doesn't mean that everyone is oblivious to the problem.

Rhaegar was probably very discreet about it.