[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Okay. I just don't see the outlines of that plan. In fact, I think Harrenhal effectively killed those plans indefinitely, and whatever Rhaegar did after Aegon's birth had nothing to do with a plan to depose his father.

And we really don't know yet how well-known Rhaegar's relationship to Lyanna became during the Rebellion. Since that's a core mystery nobody talks about that, but that does not prove anything.

Rhaegar did do nothing on the political front throughout half of the Rebellion. That strongly suggests he had no plan whatsoever. It is pretty evident that he and Aerys completely misinterpreted the fallout of the Crowning. Aerys and cronies saw it as a political overture, Rhaegar meant it as a romantic gesture. Both things led to trouble for him and the whole dynasty.

If Rhaegar married Lyanna this was not part of a political plan. If there had been no Rebellion, Aerys and his cronies had destroyed Rhaegar. In fact, it was Brandon's rashness which saved Rhaegar (for a time), nothing else. If Aerys had not had Aerys head for this treason (i.e. taking another wife without his consent) he would have forced him to abdicate the same way Duncan was forced to abdicate.

And the Lords and the Realm would have backed Aerys in that, not Rhaegar. And surely whoever would have backed Rhaegar in a hypothetical 'Rhaegar tries to depose Aerys while hiding Lyanna' scenario would have been appalled and disgusted by their polygamous 'king', leading either to another rebellion or to a coalition/Great Council deposing the self-proclaimed King Rhaegar in favor of young Viserys (or in the reinstatement of Aerys II if he had not been killed by Rhaegar).

Whether the marriage in itself is legal is really not the point.

Good points. However, I sincerely hope the huge mystery of R+L=J isn't just a matter of Rhaegar falling in love with the wrong girl at the wrong time and deciding that he could act on that because of a prophecy. That seems... too pedestrian for GRRM, you know? I'd be disappointed.

[UVA]

Thanks! That's a relief -- when I saw UVA and Hrafntyr talking about the significance of Dorne and KOLT, I thought, "But I just wrote a long post about this!"

Sorry Liz, it wasn't intentional!

My crackpot about the most obvious political event that may have driven Rhaegar to "abduct" Lyanna is if his father learned that she was KOLT some time after the tournament ended and either threatened to kill her, or actually made an attempt while she was staying at Harrenhal. It's huge to me that she wasn't abducted from Winterfell or Riverrun post-ToH. That is very different than most of what I've read here and elsewhere. And given HH's significance (and symbol of ill fatedness), I just wouldn't be surprised. If there were a choice between "get her into hiding" and death, I think that no matter how he felt about Lyanna, Rhaegar would help her.

I'm not sure. If this is the case, why disappear with Lyanna for so long? Why would Aerys want to trigger a civil war by effectively committing the same crime against the Starks and Baratheons, as Rhaegar was accused of? The political rescue angle is compelling, but I think there are more layers to the "abduction"" beyond the scenario you suggest. There are strong implications that it was also romantic, and prophesy-fueled -- reasons that would better explain why Rhaegar, who (according to TWOAF) seemed to haven taken great pains spearheading a political coup, ceased to be present and pro-actively involved.

[sj4iy]

But he wasn't, king that's the problem. That marriage might not have ever been legitimate.

Rhaegar was very clearly planning on deposing his father. We know that he tried at Harrenhal and that he was going to call for it once he returned from the Trident. He very clearly thought he was going to be king (and very likely would have).

[MoIaF]

Well the Faith has no say over the Northern religion. And if Rhaegar is planning on taking down Aerys then he doesn't need permission when marrying Lyanna in front of a heart tree. Marrying in the old way solves that problem, then once you take down Aerys, the HS will do as he is told.

I think it gets down to what LV said which is the acceptance of either the king or the Lords of such an arrangement and I think that a tough pill to swallow for most Lords. Also, I'm unsure, do those who follow the Old Gods accept polygamous marriages? I know we have Craster but I don't belive he's a good example.

[BearQueen87]

I think it gets down to what LV said which is the acceptance of either the king or the Lords of such an arrangement and I think that a tough pill to swallow for most Lords. Also, I'm unsure, do those who follow the Old Gods accept polygamous marriages? I know we have Craster but I don't belive he's a good example.

Ygon Oldfather had 17 wives and no one bats an eye.

ETA: I get what you're saying about tough pill to swallow but that doesn't mean R and L wouldn't take the chance.

[MoIaF]

Rhaegar was very clearly planning on deposing his father. We know that he tried at Harrenhal and that he was going to call for it once he returned from the Trident. He very clearly thought he was going to be king (and very likely would have).

But he didn't become king and there in lies the problem. If this child was going to enter the line of succession there needs to be support for it. Otherwise, if he were to inherite his legitimacy could easily be used to start a rebellion. This kind of thing is highly destabilizing. Aegon I and Maegor (to an extent) could impose it but they also had dragons. Rhaegar had no such tools to impose anything.

Honestly, I don't think they got married. But I'm just going to agree to disagree.

[MoIaF]

Ygon Oldfather had 17 wives and no one bats an eye.

ETA: I get what you're saying about tough pill to swallow but that doesn't mean R and L wouldn't take the chance.

True about Oldfather.

They could have but I don't believe it happened but like I said above I respect your right to disagree this is all very ambitious and it could go either way.

[Danilo Sanches]

What i think is , incest is what drove the faith to arms. And after peace was made , Jaehaerys took Alysanne to wife , and no one said a word about it. There are those that argue that Poligamy was outlawed after peace was made between Jaehaerys and the Faith , but i think that , if it were the case , it would have been worth mentioning in the section that dealt with this subject , especially as we hear that Jaehaerys began a huge legal reform involving all kingdoms under the Iron throne . And i still bellieve that the haith would have been more worried about banning incestuous marriages before poligamy.

[Lord Varys]

Maegor began the trouble, Aenys tried to pacify the High Septon with Maegor's exile and the appointment of Septon Murmison as Hand, but that did not really work. Later Aenys miscalculated the Faith's true view on incest, and the amount of influence the High Septon had over the smallfolk, the pious lords, and the Realm.

Aenys was loved by the commons, but they did not like incest.

Back to topic:

Rhaegar falling in love with Lyanna is the core of the whole mystery, I think. Prophecy played a certain role, sure but just imagine Rhaegar as his mother's son, a dutiful son who always did what the world, the family, and destiny expected of him. And then, when he was plotting to topple his father, and expecting/hoping that his son would be the One that was expected, not he himself, he fell in love at Harrenhal. Really fell in love. And Lyanna, possibly, too.

When Aegon was born, Elia barren, and the prophecy finally - in Rhaegar's mind - fulfilled, he made the first and only rash decision in his life - just like Doran Martell when he married Mellario - and it backfired. With Elia barren, destiny sort of invited (or asked) Rhaegar to follow his heart and take Lyanna. And that he did.

I really don't see that policy played a role in that at all. And prophecy also did not determine a match with Lyanna. That was love - at least on his part. Rhaegar could only have believed that Aegon was the promised prince for a very short amount of time after his birth in December/January. There is little reason to assume that a day after 'He has a song' scene he suddenly decided that his child with Lyanna would be the real promised prince. Perhaps later something happened that changed his view, but that would have been on the road, not on Dragonstone.

Addendum:

Aerys caring about the Knight of the Laughing Tree after Harrenhal does not fit his changeable nature at all. The core of his madness is change, he has many mistresses and notions, but he forgets about that in days or weeks. Upon his return to KL he would have learned that Jaime had been there all the time, and that would have settled the issue. That Knight was just some guy.

[BearQueen87]

True about Oldfather.

They could have but I don't believe it happened but like I said above I respect your right to disagree this is all very ambitious and it could go either way.

:grouphug:

given that you I agree on so many other Non RLJ things...all good!

[MoIaF]

:grouphug:

given that you I agree on so many other Non RLJ things...all good!

:d :hugs: Alls well that ends well.

[Anath]

When Aegon was born, Elia barren, and the prophecy finally - in Rhaegar's mind - fulfilled, he made the first and only rash decision in his life - just like Doran Martell when he married Mellario - and it backfired. With Elia barren, destiny sort of invited (or asked) Rhaegar to follow his heart and take Lyanna. And that he did.

Not really. At the time Elia and Oberyn visited Casterly Rock, Doran was betrothed to Mellario. Meaning - he didn't really leave the world in the dark, including his mother. He might have fallen in love and deciced that hey, this would be his wife and no one else. He clearly broke the tradition only in making a love match. In all else, he went according to the custom. And given the fact that Mellario was of a noble Norvosi birth, she wasn't a terrible choice. Probably just not the one the Princess of Dorne would have made. But she accepted Doran's decision.

He didn't run away, leaving everyone to wonder where the hell he was and was he making sweet love to this cute girl or raping her brutally.

[UnmaskedLurker]

True about Oldfather.

They could have but I don't believe it happened but like I said above I respect your right to disagree this is all very ambitious and it could go either way.

Just one question for you and the other doubters: why did GRRM introduce the entire issue of polygamy--with Aegon I and Maegor and with Crastor and Oldfather, if polygamy is never going to come into play as part of the main story?

[Danilo Sanches]

Just one question for you and the other doubters: why did GRRM introduce the entire issue of polygamy--with Aegon I and Maegor and with Crastor and Oldfather, if polygamy is never going to come into play as part of the main story?

Could it be a red herring ? I want the theory to prove fact as well , but you never know.

[sj4iy]

But he didn't become king and there in lies the problem. If this child was going to enter the line of succession there needs to be support for it. Otherwise, if he were to inherite his legitimacy could easily be used to start a rebellion. This kind of thing is highly destabilizing. Aegon I and Maegor (to an extent) could impose it but they also had dragons. Rhaegar had no such tools to impose anything.

Honestly, I don't think they got married. But I'm just going to agree to disagree.

I think you're missing my point.

Rhaegar is fully expecting to be king. He has the support of some of the most powerful houses behind him- the Daynes and the Whents, and probably many more who want to see Aerys abdicate the throne. He would STILL have Dorne on his side (even if it pissed them off), because Elia would still be his queen and her children would still be first in line for the throne. He has all the support he needs. But then he finds out that Elia can give him no more children, and decides that he has to make his move with Lyanna for whatever reason- perhaps she was to be married soon to Robert, perhaps he believes he can waste no more time in producing another heir. Or perhaps he is simply madly in love with her and can't stand it anymore. Whatever the reason, he then takes off with his most trusted friends, meets up with her and runs off with her for MONTHS. This is the key word- they are gone for MONTHS. This isn't a tryst, this isn't a one-night affair...they are not seen for months- even after the rebellion begins. Why doesn't Rhaegar bring Lyanna back to KL with him when he comes to fight at the Trident? Because he's not king yet- he's left her, pregnant, in a tower in Dorne while he goes to fight Robert and says nothing at all about Lyanna that we know of. We do know that he plans on calling a council when he gets back- obviously, he's wants to force his father out of power. That would make him king. And then he would have the power to present Lyanna and her child to Westeros as his second wife, and there wouldn't be anything anyone could really do to oppose him on it.

To me, it makes complete sense. We have Jaehaerys and his wife doing the same thing (which Rhaegar would know about), and we have precedent for Targaryens taking second wives (which Rhaegar would also know about). He doesn't need support for his plans- he simply needs acceptance once he's king...which he would very likely have.

[MoIaF]

Just one question for you and the other doubters: why did GRRM introduce the entire issue of polygamy--with Aegon I and Maegor and with Crastor and Oldfather, if polygamy is never going to come into play as part of the main story?

Well, it could be a red herring as Danilo mentioned. But also it's not painted in the best of light, and in fact it has a lot of negative aspects to it throughout the story. It has proven to be quite problematic especially for the Targaryen's.

[Lord Varys]

Doran's decision to marry Mellario backfired on a personal level - they could not find common ground for their relationship. That's what I went. In comparison:

Rhaegar and Lyanna's love went a little farther and killed them both.

[BearQueen87]

Doran's decision to marry Mellario backfired on a personal level - they could not find common ground for their relationship. That's what I went. In comparison:

Rhaegar and Lyanna's love went a little farther and killed them both.

Moral: Never fall in love. ;)

[Lord Varys]

The Whents and Daynes are not powerful. And Aerys could always have had the West again, if he had married Viserys to Cersei, or simply apologized to Tywin. Not to mention that Rhaegar could not really marry Elia, Lyanna, and Cersei.

Doran may have been very reluctant to involve Dorne in a Targaryen civil war militarily. He considers his people first.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well, it could be a red herring as Danilo mentioned. But also it's not painted in the best of light, and in fact it has a lot of negative aspects to it throughout the story. It has proven to be quite problematic especially for the Targaryen's.

I realize there is nothing I can write that will convince you, but of course it is painted in a bad light. If GRRM wants the marriage to be revealed later than revealing R+L=J, he would not want people to assume the marriage happened. He likes to keep it a mystery. But basically, I am convinced of the marriage because I don't see Lyanna agreeing to be Rhaegar's mistress, and most important, I don't think the KG would have stayed at ToJ rather than sending at least one to Viserys if Jon is not king. But I know those factors won't convince you. I just wanted others who are reading to remember there are a lot of additional clues regarding the marriage.