[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, Jaime hadn't actually been made a KG yet. In fact, one of the things I always found really strange about Harrenhal was when Jaime said there wasn't many knights from the Westerlands attending. There were just a handful of them. So at this point Tywin was still Hand and men from the Westerlands were staying away from this tourney.

IIRC, world book states that Tywin resigned prior to the tourney..

[bent branch]

IIRC, world book states that Tywin resigned prior to the tourney..

Ah, that's different than the books.

[Ygrain]

Hmmm... I'm trying to piece together the support that Tywin showed Rhaegar (though, IMHO, it was rather blunt to put it like that, un-Tywin-like), the fact that the person paying the tourney was very rich, that Genna Lannister was so sure that Rhaegar would marry Cersei, that Cersei was still kept at the court as a handy replacement, that it was Rhaegar who convinced Aerys to send for Tywin, that Elia's death looks rather meaningless, that according to Tyrion, Pycelle aka Lannister maestertoadie somehow may have betrayed Rhaegar... one keeps running into weird Lannister connections.

[Hrafntýr]

Well, Jaime hadn't actually been made a KG yet. In fact, one of the things I always found really strange about Harrenhal was when Jaime said there wasn't many knights from the Westerlands attending. There were just a handful of them. So at this point Tywin was still Hand and men from the Westerlands were staying away from this tourney.

Now we know that a lot of the ground work for this being done by the maesters who were arranging marriages, etc. If it was Tywin's plan to put Viserys on the throne, he would have to flush out all the Rhaegar supporters first. This way he could get them to show their hand and deal with them before trying to depose Aerys. By "revealing" the supposed treason of Rhaegar and his supporters before putting the second phase of his plan into affect, Tywin would be dealing with those who would fight him on putting Viserys on the throne. It might also buy him some time with Aerys since he'd help out Aerys' "traitors".

The biggest fly in the ointment was Jaime showing up and screwing everything up by getting inducted to the KG. That is the point when Tywin finally resigned as Hand.

Anyway, when I read the pertinent parts I might see how this is totally not doable.

Hmm, this is interesting, I hadn't ever thought of things this way before. To me, this raises the possibility that Tywin was the one responsible for "whispering in Aerys' ear" rather than Varys, as is often assumed or stated. Not necessarily directly, of course. And he could have been doing so since Duskendale. I hadn't really considered the possibility that Tywin could have imagined a Cersei-Viserys marriage, which I suppose could be another reason for having Cersei at court.

I'm not the biggest Cersei fan, I'll admit, but such a possibility would add depth to her resentment of being a woman treated as a piece of marriageable flesh: was Tywin just waiting to see whether it would be Rhaegar, Viserys, or then, as the Rebellion unfolds, whoever winds up sitting the IT to whom he would propose a marriage with Cersei.

[ETA: Hee hee, I just reached "a thousand posts and one"!]

[Gala]

Pretty sure that was Darry, not Hightower.

No, it was Hightower.

[Lord Varys]

Ygrain,

Saera Targaryen run off from the Motherhouse her parents gave her to, spent some time in Lys, and ended her life as the proprietor of a brothel in Volantis. If she was ever married - which is not mention - no Targaryen in Westeros would want to marry his children to any of her offspring.

On Aerys:

Yes, he is really a human being now, and I must say there is not a page in there were I did not scream 'Could please give anyone this guy a real doctor'. There is clearly something wrong with him, he has a real physical affliction that worsens over time.

And for much of the time he is mad in the Rhaegel sense - a nice guy, whose mad ideas matter not since he forgets them soon enough. Did anyone catch the reference to Emperor Nero?

Later on he only grows dangerous where his children are concerned (i.e. for the midwives, and the family of that one mistress - but even when he confines Rhaella to Maegor's, an annulment, walk of shame, or death sentence does never come up). The populace at large is not in danger, as he is not sadistic or cruel by nature. It is explicitly mentioned that his sentences only grew harsher and crueler after Duskendale, and at that point he really completely nuts.

If Duskendale had not happened, he would have become the man he later was.

And we should really describe his relationship to Tywin as a marriage that grew worse over time and neither of them had it in them to file a divorce. It reminded me of the Danny DeVito movie 'The War of the Roses' in that regard (although they do agree on a divorce, just not on the conditions)...

[sj4iy]

I'm sure there are more clues despite anything related to polygamy that we could use for RLJ. We haven't yet found them.

For instance, there was a Targaryen Princess called Viserra. That sounds dangerously similar to Serra. I know the most popular theory is that Aegon is a Blackfyre, but to be honest, he could actually be revealed as a Targaryen, even a legitimate one, and I wouldn't be shocked at all as they pretty much procreated EVERYWHERE and with EVERYONE.

Jaehaerys running off and marrying his sister in private seemed like a pretty huge one to me.

[sj4iy]

Like I said, this is all coming from things that have been said in this thread. Someone said something about a potentially mysterious backer since Whent couldn't have had the money himself. If this was the case, Whent might not be aware of where the money was coming from. And he'd probably think that whoever was willing to put up that kind of money to help Rhaegar to the throne was Rhaegar's supporter.

...the mysterious backer was Rhaegar.

[sj4iy]

No, it was Hightower.

I mixed them up. Both told Jaime what he had sworn to do:

Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. “You’re hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. “You’re hurting me.” In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted’s screaming. “We are sworn to protect her as well,” Jaime had finally been driven to say. “We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”

After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.”

[Marcus Agrippa]

I haven't read this yet but I need to know- what was Steffon to Rhaegar? It sounds like Steffon Baratheon might have been a bigger player then we imagined.

[BearQueen87]

IIRC it doesn't say much about what he did during siege. It's said that he was with army. When Small Council(they were with army too) discussed what to do, Tywin said just storm Duskendale. Someone said what if Darklyn really kill Aerys as he promised if they attack. Tywin answered that they have better replacement and point to Rhaegar. So there probably really start Aerys' paranoia about Rhaegar, because someone informed(Chelsted?) about what happened in camp.

Damn. Cold.

[BearQueen87]

Jaehaerys running off and marrying his sister in private seemed like a pretty huge one to me.

And it not being set aside, despite the ire of the High Houses.

[sj4iy]

And it not being set aside, despite the ire of the High Houses.

Yup. Important evidence that could easily lead Rhaegar to feeling that he could get away with it.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yup. Important evidence that could easily lead Rhaegar to feeling that he could get away with it.

Right--the point is not whether Rhaegar's judgment was perfect (we know it was not). Some (Lord Varys being the loudest voice around here) believe that Aerys would have disinherited and possibly executed Rhaegar for marrying Lyanna. Even if that view is accurate, the point is to try to figure out what Rhaegar would have been thinking. And I agree that the information about a prince marrying against the King's wishes in secret and the lords being upset but not doing anything about it seems to suggest that Rhaegar--a student of history--would have believed he could get away with marrying Lyanna (especially--but not necessarily--if he thought he would be king before the marriage was revealed).

[Anath]

And how would he become king before the marriage was revealed? He needed the lords to overthrow Aerys and he wouldn't have them if he infringed on their right to arrange their children's matches and disappppeared with their betrothed daughters, making them look like fools.

It wasn't "a prince marrying against the King's wishes in secret". Said king hated said prince's guts and suspected him in treason already, and the prince's interest in this particular bride only heightened the suspicions. He needed the King accepting the marriage to overcome the ire of the lords or he needed the lords to overthrow the King. He needed one side against the other. It was just the opposite to what history said happened. He couldn't do both things at the same time.

He might have thought that this political suicide might not be, in fact, a political suicide but that would make him even more stupid than I thought him to be.

Most likely he was half in love and half convenient prophecy high. But political thinking had nothing to do with it. Everyone with half a brain could figure out that it would not work.

Rhaegar's judgment, if he had a political one, was horrifying. That's why I think politics stopped figuring in his reasoning once love and prophecy settled in. He chose what suited his needs better. I don;t see how sound reasoning would stop him marrying Lyanna when it didn't stop him taking her in the first place.

Whether a Septon would be willing to perform a marriage ceremony for a married man or whether it would be considered legal if he did, given that Rhaegar never became king and Aerys didn;t approve is another matter altogether.

[Lord Varys]

My scenario regarding this is:

Imagine Brandon had not raced to KL and threatened Rhaegar's life. Imagine Aerys had not considered this a threat against himself.

What would Aerys have done upon learning what Rhaegar did? Remember, all he and his cronies were apparently waiting for was a pretext to get rid of Rhaegar. Rhaegar was away, and thus all Aerys would need do is publicly declare that his eldest son stands accused of treason. The Starks and Baratheons would have stood with Aerys in that.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Is it just me or does anyone else find Rhaegar look like Chris Hemsworth, only leaner and with silver hair?

<snip>

I'm so tuned into TWoIaF that I pulled up the eBook in iBooks on my iPad and did a search for "Hemsworth" the entire time thinking...I don't remember this character...what am I missing...I don't remember a House Hemsworth...

Then it hit me...

Why I share such stories about myself...I shall never know...

[sj4iy]

My scenario regarding this is:

Imagine Brandon had not raced to KL and threatened Rhaegar's life. Imagine Aerys had not considered this a threat against himself.

What would Aerys have done upon learning what Rhaegar did? Remember, all he and his cronies were apparently waiting for was a pretext to get rid of Rhaegar. Rhaegar was away, and thus all Aerys would need do is publicly declare that his eldest son stands accused of treason. The Starks and Baratheons would have stood with Aerys in that.

...and how do Rhaegar's actions POSSIBLY constitute 'treason'?

[Ygrain]

My scenario regarding this is:

Imagine Brandon had not raced to KL and threatened Rhaegar's life. Imagine Aerys had not considered this a threat against himself.

What would Aerys have done upon learning what Rhaegar did? Remember, all he and his cronies were apparently waiting for was a pretext to get rid of Rhaegar. Rhaegar was away, and thus all Aerys would need do is publicly declare that his eldest son stands accused of treason. The Starks and Baratheons would have stood with Aerys in that.

They would? If the Starks sink Rhaegar, Lyanna is a pregnant concubine, soiled goods. If they side with Rhaegar, the Stark blood enters the succession line and one day may sit the throne.

Besides, what would the other lords do? Martells, who would thus lose access to the throne? Others who see that both Aerys and Viserys are unstable and that the king's council just want to get their paws on as much power as they can? It would be RR all over - but this time, 'R' stands for Rhaegar.

[Ygrain]

...and how do Rhaegar's actions POSSIBLY constitute 'treason'?

Especially when no other Targ prince was ever accused of treason for pulling the same.