[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[Ygrain]

Just because Rhaegar could have intended to have two wives doesn't mean he actually got to marry Lyanna.

Marrying Lyanna meant that he wasn't just some lusty dude that dishonoured a girl and she was going to be left to her own disgraced. He was going to do the honourable thing: marrying the girl he got or was going to get pregnant. Aeron the Dragon had two wives and no one calls him a cheater, even if he indeed had one wife first and then, married the other one he liked the most. If polygamy hadn't being proposed, then he wouldn't be different from any other guy who had bastards. But that's not how Rhaegar rolls, apparently.

He put the girl's honour above his - it's not like we haven't seen this before :-)

Who is this Aeron the Dragon guy? I won't be getting TWOIAF any time soon, so pleeeease, quote!

I have to say I found the chapter on Aerys fascinating. He's been fully fleshed out as a character and somehow comes across as both more human and more monstrous at the same time. I see A LOT of Henry VIII in him, especially as a young man. His relationship with Tywin is really interesting; their twisted, competitive dynamic drives a lot of the action.

Could you provide quotes, or a summary?

I was thinking Henry VIII, as well, especially after watching the Tudors, where he really came over as a psycho - charming as long as he had his way, demanding heads left and right when he got pissed, and always, always having an excuse for himself why what he did was necessary, or why it was anyone else's fault but his.

The passage on Duskendale does involve Rhaegar and I'd love to put post some quotes from it, but I also don't want to spoil it for anyone...

Gosh, that's what this thread is for! Spoil away! What was Rhaegar doing during Duskendale?

BTW, could it be possible that Tywin talked to Rhaegar about marriage to Cersei first and Rhaegar agreed to win his support against Aerys? Could this have been a factor, except Aerys' pride, that put a stop to the plan?

ETA: One thing I wanted to add to what I had said previously: since no big reveal can come from a book outside the main series, it is wrong to ask "how does the new information change what we already know" - the right question is, "how does it fit with what we already know".

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

In the "real" RLJ thread (87, I think) people came up with quite a bit of evidence suggesting that RL might have named their boy Aemon. We may never know, of course, but I do like the Aemon suggestion.

Wasn't that the scenario of "what would Lyanna choose if Rhaegar hadn't left instructions for Lyanna in the case it were a boy"?

[Ygrain]

My apologies, I completely missed the issue with the title. Fixed now, I hope. Here there be spoilers. Lots of them.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Who is this Aeron the Dragon guy? I won't be getting TWOIAF any time soon, so pleeeease, quote!

Aeggggggggggon I.

[Ygrain]

Ah. Oh. Sigh. No new reveal then :-(

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ah. Oh. Sigh. No new reveal then :-(

Believe me. There are a looooooooooooooooooooooot of dragons revealed. The one Olenna was going to marry, another one who was going to marry a Manderly but died when she was drinking and riding a horse, Aerion the Asshole naming his son Maegor...

[Ygrain]

Believe me. There are a looooooooooooooooooooooot of dragons revealed. The one Olenna was going to marry, another one who was going to marry a Manderly but died when she was drinking and riding a horse, Aerion the Asshole naming his son Maegor...

I meant, no new reveal of a polygamous Targ :-)

Yeah, heard about Olenna - she was to marry a gay who spurned her and then she got leftovers after another Targ. She must have been royally pissed :D

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I meant, no new reveal of a polygamous Targ :-)

Not that I know. I haven't finished the whole book but I think there are no more reveals.

[Ygrain]

Would have been too obvious, I suppose :-) Instead, we're getting this little wrench how it was coooomplicated because the main series shows nothing like that.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm sure there are more clues despite anything related to polygamy that we could use for RLJ. We haven't yet found them.

For instance, there was a Targaryen Princess called Viserra. That sounds dangerously similar to Serra. I know the most popular theory is that Aegon is a Blackfyre, but to be honest, he could actually be revealed as a Targaryen, even a legitimate one, and I wouldn't be shocked at all as they pretty much procreated EVERYWHERE and with EVERYONE.

[Ygrain]

For instance, there was a Targaryen Princess called Viserra. That sounds dangerously similar to Serra. I know the most popular theory is that Aegon is a Blackfyre, but to be honest, he could actually be revealed as a Targaryen, even a legitimate one, and I wouldn't be shocked at all as they pretty much procreated EVERYWHERE and with EVERYONE.

Which is, IMHO, the reason why Steffon Baratheon was sent to look for a bride for Rhaegar In Essos - it seems that a good couple of Targs headed that way. The question is, why didn't he find any Targ descendants? Did anyone make sure that they disappeared and the Targs were about to die out just like their dragons?

[Toos]

Gosh, that's what this thread is for! Spoil away! What was Rhaegar doing during Duskendale?

IIRC it doesn't say much about what he did during siege. It's said that he was with army. When Small Council(they were with army too) discussed what to do, Tywin said just storm Duskendale. Someone said what if Darklyn really kill Aerys as he promised if they attack. Tywin answered that they have better replacement and point to Rhaegar. So there probably really start Aerys' paranoia about Rhaegar, because someone informed(Chelsted?) about what happened in camp.

[Ygrain]

IIRC it doesn't say much about what he did during siege. It's said that he was with army. When Small Council(they were with army too) discussed what to do, Tywin said just storm Duskendale. Someone said what if Darklyn really kill Aerys as he promised if they attack. Tywin answered that they have better replacement and point to Rhaegar. So there probably really start Aerys' paranoia about Rhaegar, because someone informed(Chelsted?) about what happened in camp.

Ugh. That was ugly, and I really don't hold it against Aerys that he was mightily pissed with Tywin. - This was after the match with Cersei was proposed, right?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ugh. That was ugly, and I really don't hold it against Aerys that he was mightily pissed with Tywin. - This was after the match with Cersei was proposed, right?

Yep. Also, it's mentioned that Aerys cheered for Rhaegar during the Tourney. So, it's all Tywin's fault they didn't get along. :P

Seriously, I think Aerys and Rhaegar were in relative good terms until Duskendale, and Tywin's comment was used by the men of the Small Council who were definitely trying to get the most they could from the fragile-minded Aerys (yes, they were described as such), and it's not that Varys started to poison Aerys' mind. He was already poisoned by his own men.

[bent branch]

I haven't read anything from the relevant sections yet, but an idea that I had from reading this thread is that Rhaegar was not behind Harrenhal. Tywin was behind Harrenhall and the plot was more nefarious than I had originally thought (I think Tywin was behind Duskendale and Harrenhal). Anyway, what if Harrenhal was a setup to get Rhaegar to go to a tourney that had been arranged so that some lords could try to depose Aerys and declare Rhaegar the new king. Rhaegar was actually unaware that this is what was planned. Now, as I say I haven't read this stuff for myself yet, but I thought I saw were there was also a plot by some lords to go over both Aerys and Rhaegar and install Viserys because he was more easily controlled. What if, both of these plots were being controlled by Tywin. To what purpose? If Rhaegar could be trapped in the appearance of committing treason, then he would be executed (Aerys was already suspicious of Rhaegar and Rhaegar was also already married). Anyway, then the plan to depose Aerys could be put into affect. Then, Tywin could get Cersei married to Viserys and himself made hand (since he had been spreading all this wonderful propaganda about it was really he who had been ruling for the past 14 years). Thus, he would have everything he wanted. His daughter as queen and control of Westeros. Not the best thought out theory, but just some thoughts inspired by this thread.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I haven't read anything from the relevant sections yet, but an idea that I had from reading this thread is that Rhaegar was not behind Harrenhal. Tywin was behind Harrenhall and the plot was more nefarious than I had originally thought (I think Tywin was behind Duskendale and Harrenhal). Anyway, what if Harrenhal was a setup to get Rhaegar to go to a tourney that had been arranged so that some lords could try to depose Aerys and declare Rhaegar the new king. Rhaegar was actually unaware that this is what was planned. Now, as I say I haven't read this stuff for myself yet, but I thought I saw were there was also a plot by some lords to go over both Aerys and Rhaegar and install Viserys because he was more easily controlled. What if, both of these plots were being controlled by Tywin. To what purpose? If Rhaegar could be trapped in the appearance of committing treason, then he would be executed (Aerys was already suspicious of Rhaegar and Rhaegar was also already married). Anyway, then the plan to depose Aerys could be put into affect. Then, Tywin could get Cersei married to Viserys and himself made hand (since he had been spreading all this wonderful propaganda about it was really he who had been ruling for the past 14 years). Thus, he would have everything he wanted. His daughter as queen and control of Westeros. Not the best thought out theory, but just some thoughts inspired by this thread.

But why would House Whent help Tywin?

[bent branch]

But why would House Whent help Tywin?

Like I said, this is all coming from things that have been said in this thread. Someone said something about a potentially mysterious backer since Whent couldn't have had the money himself. If this was the case, Whent might not be aware of where the money was coming from. And he'd probably think that whoever was willing to put up that kind of money to help Rhaegar to the throne was Rhaegar's supporter.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Like I said, this is all coming from things that have been said in this thread. Someone said something about a potentially mysterious backer since Whent couldn't have had the money himself. If this was the case, Whent might not be aware of where the money was coming from. And he'd probably think that whoever was willing to put up that kind of money to help Rhaegar to the throne was Rhaegar's supporter.

But someone would have needed to contact Whent first, right? Either Tywin in person, making it obvious where the money is coming from, or a bannerman of Tywin's, making it highly suspicious that it's Tywin where the money is coming from.

You know, the thought isn't such a strange one. Tywin had just resigned because Aerys had taken his heir away, and it was the Tourney where Jaime would officially join the KG. Rhaegar could set it all to rights again, or so perhaps people thought..

But with so many people willing to support Aerys, and the others willing to support Rhaegar (because most people loved Rhaegar), I doubt that there was ever a well thought plan from Tywin about getting Viserys on the throne. Tywin's support alone would not have been enough for that.

But, that's simply my opinion :)

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Just finished reading the Targaryen & Stark sections of the book in detail after my initial excited skim, and have flipped through the entire volume.

So many thoughts, but yes, bent branch, I think that once we have the entire R+L=J puzzle, the name of Tywin Lannister will be mentioned somewhere. I'm not a huge fan of Tywin or the Lannisters, and I know that this volume was written knowing they were the real power behind the throne and would be reading this, but still...

I like what you wrote Liz, and I especially agree with the bolded part. The World Book just helps us to put what we already know within a socio-political context, albeit with a pro-Lannister slant at times.

I only read from Aegon V's reign to the end of the Rebellion last night, but there is some mention of prophecy, particularly with regards to the pressure it put on Aerys and Rhaella's marriage to produce more children, especially since their family had all but been destroyed after Summerhall.

I have to say I found the chapter on Aerys fascinating. He's been fully fleshed out as a character and somehow comes across as both more human and more monstrous at the same time. I see A LOT of Henry VIII in him, especially as a young man. His relationship with Tywin is really interesting; their twisted, competitive dynamic drives a lot of the action.

The passage on Duskendale does involve Rhaegar and I'd love to put post some quotes from it, but I also don't want to spoil it for anyone...

Agree totally about the chapter on Aerys. One of the greatest contributions of this is that we have far more knowledge of Aerys' reign, even with the POV limitations... and Aerys' late reign was the context that R+L=J was happening in, and that Rhaegar, Lyanna, the Kingsguard, and other players would be responding to.

After all, we now know that Rhaegar spent nearly a year at Casterly Rock when he was eight -- a formative time in a boy's life. He was there with his father and Tywin "ruling the realm" from the Westerlands while his mother and brother are in KL.

There's no way that Rhaegar didn't trust Steffon and Tywin as his father's far more levelheaded friends, the ones who were the voices of reason. And with Steffon dead, Tywin may have been that trusted older person. I don't think he went to Tywin with prophecy or treason... I definitely don't think he told Tywin "my father needs to go" or "I'm thinking about running off with Lyanna Stark." However, it is significant that Tywin didn't move until Rhaegar was dead. Still mulling over that, but given the information we now have, especially around Duskendale? What Tywin allegedly said there is huge in my opinion. Unless Yandel just made that up, it can't be ignored -- has to be taken into account.

(I'm kicking myself for actually believing that Tywin sat on his hands from 281 until 283 just twiddling his thumbs, when nothing we've seen from him in canon shows that as part of his character. He's no Doran Martell, licking his wounds and biding his time until he can repay an insult. A Lannister always pays his debts....)

After my re-read, I definitely think that my initial take about the King's Men vs. Prince's Men issue being rendered moot by Aerys' growing madness and then the Rebellion is accurate and not just a maester's spin. In fact, if the Rebellion hadn't occurred, the King and the Prince likely would have ended up in a dragonless Dance anyway... which totally parallels TPaTQ. For instance, it is huge that Aerys was actually considering passing Rhaegar over for Viserys, and that it's not just conjecture, but something people like Pycelle (prob Yandel's best source) knew.

I still cling stubbornly to the fact that there's no way Jon Snow would be walking around had there not been a number of fully rational actors participating in some effort to conceal Rhaegar and Lyanna's whereabouts. Context is everything.

[bent branch]

But someone would have needed to contact Whent first, right? Either Tywin in person, making it obvious where the money is coming from, or a bannerman of Tywin's, making it highly suspicious that it's Tywin where the money is coming from.

You know, the thought isn't such a strange one. Tywin had just resigned because Aerys had taken his heir away, and it was the Tourney where Jaime would officially join the KG. Rhaegar could set it all to rights again, or so perhaps people thought..

But with so many people willing to support Aerys, and the others willing to support Rhaegar (because most people loved Rhaegar), I doubt that there was ever a well thought plan from Tywin about getting Viserys on the throne. Tywin's support alone would not have been enough for that.

But, that's simply my opinion :)

Well, Jaime hadn't actually been made a KG yet. In fact, one of the things I always found really strange about Harrenhal was when Jaime said there wasn't many knights from the Westerlands attending. There were just a handful of them. So at this point Tywin was still Hand and men from the Westerlands were staying away from this tourney.

Now we know that a lot of the ground work for this being done by the maesters who were arranging marriages, etc. If it was Tywin's plan to put Viserys on the throne, he would have to flush out all the Rhaegar supporters first. This way he could get them to show their hand and deal with them before trying to depose Aerys. By "revealing" the supposed treason of Rhaegar and his supporters before putting the second phase of his plan into affect, Tywin would be dealing with those who would fight him on putting Viserys on the throne. It might also buy him some time with Aerys since he'd help out Aerys' "traitors".

The biggest fly in the ointment was Jaime showing up and screwing everything up by getting inducted to the KG. That is the point when Tywin finally resigned as Hand.

Anyway, when I read the pertinent parts I might see how this is totally not doable.