[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[The Twinslayer]

Just one question for you and the other doubters: why did GRRM introduce the entire issue of polygamy--with Aegon I and Maegor and with Crastor and Oldfather, if polygamy is never going to come into play as part of the main story?

My guess is that Dany will try it. She will regret marrying Hizhdar and want to take another husband while he is still alive. She'll think she can get away with it, like Aegon I, because she has dragons. But it will backfire -- her turning up as a polygamist at the head of a Khalassar will be too much for the lords of Westeros.

[RumHam]

Just one question for you and the other doubters: why did GRRM introduce the entire issue of polygamy--with Aegon I and Maegor and with Crastor and Oldfather, if polygamy is never going to come into play as part of the main story?

I'd imagine there are a lot of historic details that are just there. Otherwise this could also be there to establish a previous incarnation of the "three heads of the dragon." It could also be to allow Daenerys to take two husbands.

[BearQueen87]

My guess is that Dany will try it. She will regret marrying Hizhdar and want to take another husband while he is still alive. She'll think she can get away with it, like Aegon I, because she has dragons. But it will backfire -- her turning up as a polygamist at the head of a Khalassar will be too much for the lords of Westeros.

Doubtful. While I do think Dany will get married again, it won't be until after she executes Hizzy.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Moral: Never fall in love. ;)

BearQueen87, that's GRRM in a nutshell. No good ever comes out of "love" in this series. Ever!

My guess is that Dany will try it. She will regret marrying Hizhdar and want to take another husband while he is still alive. She'll think she can get away with it, like Aegon I, because she has dragons. But it will backfire -- her turning up as a polygamist at the head of a Khalassar will be too much for the lords of Westeros.

God, I hope not. Hizdahr probably doesn't make it out of the battle for Meereen.

[BearQueen87]

God, I hope not. Hizdahr probably doesn't make it out of the battle for Meereen.

That's a shame

[Annara Snow]

Maegor began the trouble, Aenys tried to pacify the High Septon with Maegor's exile and the appointment of Septon Murmison as Hand, but that did not really work. Later Aenys miscalculated the Faith's true view on incest, and the amount of influence the High Septon had over the smallfolk, the pious lords, and the Realm.

Aenys was loved by the commons, but they did not like incest.

Back to topic:

Rhaegar falling in love with Lyanna is the core of the whole mystery, I think. Prophecy played a certain role, sure but just imagine Rhaegar as his mother's son, a dutiful son who always did what the world, the family, and destiny expected of him. And then, when he was plotting to topple his father, and expecting/hoping that his son would be the One that was expected, not he himself, he fell in love at Harrenhal. Really fell in love. And Lyanna, possibly, too.

When Aegon was born, Elia barren, and the prophecy finally - in Rhaegar's mind - fulfilled, he made the first and only rash decision in his life - just like Doran Martell when he married Mellario - and it backfired. With Elia barren, destiny sort of invited (or asked) Rhaegar to follow his heart and take Lyanna. And that he did.

I really don't see that policy played a role in that at all. And prophecy also did not determine a match with Lyanna. That was love - at least on his part. Rhaegar could only have believed that Aegon was the promised prince for a very short amount of time after his birth in December/January. There is little reason to assume that a day after 'He has a song' scene he suddenly decided that his child with Lyanna would be the real promised prince. Perhaps later something happened that changed his view, but that would have been on the road, not on Dragonstone.

Addendum:

Aerys caring about the Knight of the Laughing Tree after Harrenhal does not fit his changeable nature at all. The core of his madness is change, he has many mistresses and notions, but he forgets about that in days or weeks. Upon his return to KL he would have learned that Jaime had been there all the time, and that would have settled the issue. That Knight was just some guy.

I agree with your overall views, but I don't see why you think that the idea that Rhaegar was motivated by the prophecy means he concluded his child with Lyanna was to be the Prince Who Was Promised. The more obvious conclusion from the vision in the House of the Undying is that he was looking for the third head of the dragon. (A popular theory is that he was probably expecting it to be a girl he would call Visenya. I wonder what he planned to call the baby if it turned out to be a boy.)

[BearQueen87]

I agree with your overall views, but I don't see why you think that the idea that Rhaegar was motivated by the prophecy means he concluded his child with Lyanna was to be the Prince Who Was Promised. The more obvious conclusion from the vision in the House of the Undying is that he was looking for the third head of the dragon. (A popular theory is that he was probably expecting it to be a girl he would call Visenya. I wonder what he planned to call the baby if it turned out to be a boy.)

In the "real" RLJ thread (87, I think) people came up with quite a bit of evidence suggesting that RL might have named their boy Aemon. We may never know, of course, but I do like the Aemon suggestion.

[sj4iy]

In the "real" RLJ thread (87, I think) people came up with quite a bit of evidence suggesting that RL might have named their boy Aemon. We may never know, of course, but I do like the Aemon suggestion.

I think that if Rhaegar were really naming his children after Aegon and his sisters, he wouldn't have named his first daughter Rhaenys.

[Lord Varys]

I don't think Rhaegar changed his view on the promised prince at all. He was only after the third dragon head (and following his heart). But if he did, that came later.

The idea that any Targaryen descended from Aenys and Jaehaerys would name a girl Visenya died with Aenys. Visenya is a reputed kinslayer and kingslayer and her name never became popular.

The fact that Jaehaerys I had a daughter named Viserra strongly suggests that that name was sort of dead. The first Viserys, Aenys' son, may have been named after Visenya (just as Rhaena was named after Rhaenys, and Aegon after Aegon I), but all the other Viserys' have been references to that ill-fated Prince Viserys, and then to Viserys I, Viserys II, and so on.

Aemon would have been a good name indeed.

[Annara Snow]

I don't think Rhaegar changed his view on the promised prince at all. He was only after the third dragon head (and following his heart). But if he did, that came later.

The idea that any Targaryen descended from Aenys and Jaehaerys would name a girl Visenya died with Aenys. Visenya is a reputed kinslayer and kingslayer and her name never became popular.

The fact that Jaehaerys I had a daughter named Viserra strongly suggests that that name was sort of dead. The first Viserys, Aenys' son, may have been named after Visenya (just as Rhaena was named after Rhaenys, and Aegon after Aegon I), but all the other Viserys' have been references to that ill-fated Prince Viserys, and then to Viserys I, Viserys II, and so on.

Aemon would have been a good name indeed.

So what would he have wanted to call the child if it had been a girl?

[Lord Varys]

That depends. Shaera, after his grandmother? Rhaella, after his mother - although that was already included in the name Rhaenys.

Perhaps something like Lyaenna after her mother? Bah, that looks awful. Lyanna?

[Ramsays Fleyed Lips]

Wait a minute, I always thought the vision in HOTU was of baby Jon?

[BearQueen87]

Wait a minute, I always thought the vision in HOTU was of baby Jon?

No that was confirmed to be Elia. Rhaegar was dead by the time Jon was born, which was after The Sack

[El Guapo]

Just one question for you and the other doubters: why did GRRM introduce the entire issue of polygamy--with Aegon I and Maegor and with Crastor and Oldfather, if polygamy is never going to come into play as part of the main story?

Who said it won't come in to play in the story? Whether the marriage is considered legitimate or not it still gives Jon a claim to the throne.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I agree with your overall views, but I don't see why you think that the idea that Rhaegar was motivated by the prophecy means he concluded his child with Lyanna was to be the Prince Who Was Promised. The more obvious conclusion from the vision in the House of the Undying is that he was looking for the third head of the dragon. (A popular theory is that he was probably expecting it to be a girl he would call Visenya. I wonder what he planned to call the baby if it turned out to be a boy.)

Yes, that was a popular theory--one that drove me crazy when I was only a lurker and could not chime in and part of why I registered. As VS and BQ87 and sj4ij have pointed out in various ways, the theory that Rhaegar was expecting a girl to call her Visenya is a weak theory (although I understand where it comes from). As to whether Rhaegar changed his mind on the identity of TPTWP, anyone who has seen my posts in the past know I strongly believe he did change his mind (although not sure when he would have changed his mind). The main reason I believe this is because the only time in the entire series the name of the series is used is Rhaegar saying that TPTWP has a song--A Song of Ice and Fire. Given his obsession with prophecy, I just find it hard to believe that at some point while he is with Lyanna and having a child with her, he would not have figured out that their son would be A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified. The connection simply would have been obvious for him to miss it. But, of course, I cannot be sure.

Who said it won't come in to play in the story? Whether the marriage is considered legitimate or not it still gives Jon a claim to the throne.

The people who don't believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (which prompted the post you responded to) don't seem to think polygamy will come into play. That was my question to them, if they don't think R&L were married, then why all the talk about Targ polygamy. As to a claim to the throne--I don't think Jon would ever actively pursue such a claim. I think a GC might thrust the throne upon him--and being the legit son of Rhaegar might be relevant to making him a potential candidate--but the main reason likely will be Jon saving the world in the War for the Dawn (and likely the death of all the other potential claimants, including Tommen, Myrcella, Dany, Stannis, (f)Aegon, Shireen--all of whom I suspect will be dead before the end of the series--Dany as part of a huge sacrifice to save humanity). Of course all of this is basically speculation on my part--but informed speculation based on my sense of the overall story arc clues in the series.

[lareine]

OMG- All day I've been wanting to check in on this thread but was to busy at school! I'm finally home and wanted to say that I have TWOIAF on

e-book, so if anyone wants me to find any quotes or passages for them, I'd be happy to do so.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just one question for you and the other doubters: why did GRRM introduce the entire issue of polygamy--with Aegon I and Maegor and with Crastor and Oldfather, if polygamy is never going to come into play as part of the main story?

Just because Rhaegar could have intended to have two wives doesn't mean he actually got to marry Lyanna.

Marrying Lyanna meant that he wasn't just some lusty dude that dishonoured a girl and she was going to be left to her own disgraced. He was going to do the honourable thing: marrying the girl he got or was going to get pregnant. Aeron the Dragon had two wives and no one calls him a cheater, even if he indeed had one wife first and then, married the other one he liked the most. If polygamy hadn't being proposed, then he wouldn't be different from any other guy who had bastards. But that's not how Rhaegar rolls, apparently.

[Alia of the knife]

If, like I suggested, their marriage was political (they must have fallen in love at one point, or Rhaegar wouldn't die with her name on his lips) and the reason she escaped with him was not to have a conquest with a married, older prince but because she supported his political cause.

She could have achieved the same thing by marrying Robert as he was Rhaegars cousin.

There is no reason to believe that Robert wouldn't have supported Rhaegar had events not played out as they did.

[Alia of the knife]

I think that if Rhaegar were really naming his children after Aegon and his sisters, he wouldn't have named his first daughter Rhaenys.

This I agree with.

When I was a reporter back in the day, I interviewed a "religious leader" and they follow their "prophesies" to the letter down to name and birth order.

[lareine]

Nothing in TWOIAF I've read so far has "ruined" what we know from the five books of ASOIAF. But the new information we have about Rhaegar actually is another piece of the puzzle, and I'm sure much of this will be revealed not only via Howland Reed, but also in Bran's weirnet. (Thank you, Isle of Faces!)

I've raised the question of why Rhaegar didn't have his family on Dragonstone before. I was sort of patted on the head nicely as a cute newbie :) but I've read a ton of fantasy, and it struck me as strange that he'd have Elia and his children anywhere near Aerys. Textual clues from ASOIAF show that he couldn't have had his head in the clouds, or be totally emo and prophecy obsessed. The strongest and best men in the realm who knew him were firmly in his corner. I suspected he was at least nominally competent. Bookish, yes. Crazy, no... I've always found it odd that people cast all kinds of aspersions his way, and yet this is Egg's grandson. Egg also clearly believed in prophecies, or he wouldn't have perished at Summerhall.

It seems counterintuitive that Rhaegar wouldn't be able to competently play the game of thrones after growing up as the heir of the king, and in KL. He's a key chess piece (OK, cyvasse piece) in that game himself.

I figured that something major happened to derail whatever plans he made pre- and post-Harrenhal. We still don't know exactly what that was. But what Yandel is recording is a player making moves. The difference is that Rhaegar is playing on two fronts: 1) fulfilling prophecy, and 2) responding to the immediate political environment.

Finally, it's critical that not only Rhaegar was involved in these moves, he had a lot of powerful men in their right minds cooperating with him. Yes, the KG are sworn to obey, but we now know that he wasn't just with KG during some part of these events.

Everything we've learned shows that Rhaegar wasn't just posthumously whitewashed. Yandel has zero reason to present a favorable portrait -- this history is going to the Baratheons. He should smear him. Apparently this is the best he can do, which is telling.

We may actually learn that Lyanna wasn't going to break her engagement after all, and that it didn't occur to Rhaegar to break it, until something happened.

It's why I think perhaps there was an attempt on her life thanks to her being KOLT. Just because Aerys didn't learn it during the Tourney doesn't mean he didn't find out later. I can just hear him ranting -- the Baratheons are not a house that the Crown should have to work hard to control. The last thing he needs is some wild she-wolf of Winterfell influencing his young cousin... a young cousin who from all accounts is infatuated with her.

I like what you wrote Liz, and I especially agree with the bolded part. The World Book just helps us to put what we already know within a socio-political context, albeit with a pro-Lannister slant at times.

I only read from Aegon V's reign to the end of the Rebellion last night, but there is some mention of prophecy, particularly with regards to the pressure it put on Aerys and Rhaella's marriage to produce more children, especially since their family had all but been destroyed after Summerhall.

I have to say I found the chapter on Aerys fascinating. He's been fully fleshed out as a character and somehow comes across as both more human and more monstrous at the same time. I see A LOT of Henry VIII in him, especially as a young man. His relationship with Tywin is really interesting; their twisted, competitive dynamic drives a lot of the action.

The passage on Duskendale does involve Rhaegar and I'd love to put post some quotes from it, but I also don't want to spoil it for anyone...