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Ygrain

[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

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Not necessarily directly related to R+L=J, specifically, but the bits about Vermax leaving eggs and there being a dragon under Winterfell are so bluntly dismissed ("Nothing to see here!") that I think there's actually something to both. At least the eggs.

The dragon egg placed under Winterfell (as a part of the Pact of Ice and Fire) is Jon.

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You know this does set two things in motion- Robert didn't feel any animosty toward Rhaegar... until tht happened. We still don't Lord Rickard's reaction. I also wonder why Robert didn't joust..

Robert was a melee kind of guy.

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Much more likely Jon's future dragon already sprung from one of those eggs. Remember Bran's last chapter of ACoK. The winged fiery snake Summer saw? Ramsay burned Winterfell, and certainly people burned to death in this fire. And with the dragons already back in the world, other dragon eggs may hatch somewhat more easily...



Mushroom would have this story from Jace, and Jace would only tell something like that if it actually occurred (i.e. if Vermax went missing, and was then eventually found in the crypts). Jace most likely told Cregan to leave the eggs there since they would hatch when the Targaryen princess came to Winterfell, or the Starks had dragon blood.



Such a development would make much more sense than believing that Jon could (or will) eventually claim one of Dany's dragons. Especially if we assume that the truth of the claim that Jon is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna will be 'proven' by him becoming a dragonrider. Only such a feat will prove that without the shadow of a doubt (or, cause Jon to really investigate his heritage and others to come forth and reveal what they know).


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And on Arya, even under all the dirt and and grime at twelve, the "Kindly" Man already seems to see Aryas burgeoning beauty as he offers her a life with him or a Courtesans life of satins and ease with the Black Pearl.

And,(gross as it is), other men are already noticing Arya. I think Arya will always see herself as as an "ugly duckling" partly because of the negative messages she heard growing up.

Meera does acknowledge, (and sadly at that), the wolf maid was indeed tQoLaB.

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The dragon egg placed under Winterfell (as a part of the Pact of Ice and Fire) is Jon.

The speculation about ice dragons means that even in dragons, there are those of ice and those of fire. We have had just Old Nan's tales, but good to see it being a topic discussed by maesters. And their melting away is nicely juxtaposed with the Targaryan custom of turning (returning?) to ash.

We are also told that the pact went unfulfilled---hopefully that is fleshed out.

One thing stands out to me: why have a picture of Jon Snow in an "in universe" historical piece? Are LCs always featured in similar texts?

Just a conceit to get Jon included (right after a picture of Dany, nonetheless) in the book?

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I cant help wondering why the hell did Lyanna (if she was not kidnapped) not send a raven to her brothers and say "Im fine guys, I ran away with the man I love etc etc etc". Could have stopped so many people dying.


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One thing that occured to me only after I turned off the PC: who knew of Brandon's reaction? Was it public, right away after Lyanna was crowned? Did Rhaegar know? And who else? Because this ties in with the idea that Brandon could easily by instigated into something similar, on purpose, together with being given misleading information about Rhaegar's location.

I think it must have been public--foreshadowing what happened in KL.

Speaking of Brandon..someone with the book. Does it go into his arrival in KL, demanding Rhaegar come out and die, ect?

I noticed two things explicitly:

1. What happened to Lyanna after the "abduction" is never explained, not even speculated on.

Which is odd given that this book was originally written for Robert. So now the Maester (with an obvious Lannister bias) has made Rhaegar out to be fairly politically savvy and not a kidnapper/rapist. That actually feels more like GRRM (Elio and Linda) deliberately not wanting to put it into the text.

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I cant help wondering why the hell did Lyanna (if she was not kidnapped) not send a raven to her brothers and say "Im fine guys, I ran away with the man I love etc etc etc". Could have stopped so many people dying.

Once Aerys calls for Ned and Robert's head....that's it. There is going to be a war and it's not about Lyanna Stark anymore. And she would have heard about Brandon and Rickard and then Ned/Robert quite a bit after the events given the TOJ's remoteness and the fact that there are no raven coming directly to and from there (it's a ruined old tower, ravens world like homing pigeons. They fly home. But with no Maester there to train and keep them, ravens don't fly to the TOJ. They'd have to fly to a nearby keep)

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Dorne may not be happy about Rhaegar's actions, but they would support him. Why? Because they want to see Elia's children on the IT. It's really that simple.

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I cant help wondering why the hell did Lyanna (if she was not kidnapped) not send a raven to her brothers and say "Im fine guys, I ran away with the man I love etc etc etc". Could have stopped so many people dying.

...because that would have defeated the purpose of running off together. If they are getting married, then it seems to me that Rhaegar is taking a page out of Jaehaerys' book and keeping it a secret until people have no choice but to accept their marriage.

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I think it must have been public--foreshadowing what happened in KL.

Speaking of Brandon..someone with the book. Does it go into his arrival in KL, demanding Rhaegar come out and die, ect?

Which is odd given that this book was originally written for Robert. So now the Maester (with an obvious Lannister bias) has made Rhaegar out to be fairly politically savvy and not a kidnapper/rapist. That actually feels more like GRRM (Elio and Linda) deliberately not wanting to put it into the text.

Is Yandel really that biased to the Lannisters? Or is that only his source for the recent events (Pycelle)?

In any case, it shouldn't be forgotten that while the book might be for Robert, it wouldn't to well to offend the Queen and her family, by focussing the attention on the woman the King used to love. So apparently, leaving Lyanna out for as much as was possible seems to have been Yandels solution.

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1. Is Yandel really that biased to the Lannisters? Or is that only his source for the recent events (Pycelle)?

2. In any case, it shouldn't be forgotten that while the book might be for Robert, it wouldn't to well to offend the Queen and her family, by focussing the attention on the woman the King used to love. So apparently, leaving Lyanna out for as much as was possible seems to have been Yandels solution.

1. Oh right. I guess it's more Pycelle than anything. I should keep that in mind. (I want my book)

2. Leaving her out and also insinuating that she wasn't that good looking to begin with (which would please Cersei no doubt). But it's still odd that there's no "and Rhaegar kept her locked away, using her in an ill manner..." ect, which seems to be the standard Westeros tale. That wouldn't offend the Lannisters, but apparently the book doesn't talk about it at all?

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1. Oh right. I guess it's more Pycelle than anything. I should keep that in mind. (I want my book)

2. Leaving her out and also insinuating that she wasn't that good looking to begin with (which would please Cersei no doubt). But it's still odd that there's no "and Rhaegar kept her locked away, using her in an ill manner..." ect, which seems to be the standard Westeros tale. That wouldn't offend the Lannisters, but apparently the book doesn't talk about it at all?

2. Perhaps that's more showing that the raping and locking her away is Roberts personal view on the matter, and not the view of Westeros in general?

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2. Perhaps that's more showing that the raping and locking her away is Roberts personal view on the matter, and not the view of Westeros in general?

It definitely gives me pause about the "official" Westeros story and at minimum what Pycelle thought.

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2. Perhaps that's more showing that the raping and locking her away is Roberts personal view on the matter, and not the view of Westeros in general?

It definitely gives me pause about the "official" Westeros story and at minimum what Pycelle thought.

I don't think that the World book really gives reasons to review what's the "official" / publicly known story.

The following extracts are rather a confirmation of what is generally thought as public perception:

What followed prince Rhaegar’s infamous abduction of Lyanna Stark was the ruin of House Targaryen. The full depth of King Aerys’s madness was subsequently revealed in his depraved actions against Lord Stark, his heir, and their supporters after they demanded redress for Rhaegar’s wrongs. Instead of granting them fair hearing, King Aerys [...]

The battle screamed about Lord Robert and Prince Rhaegar both, and by the will of the gods, or by chance—or perhaps by design—they met amidst the shallows of the ford. The two knights fought valiantly upon their destriers, according to all accounts. For despite his crimes, Prince Rhaegar was no coward. [...]

There's one more thing that I believe is a (minor, IMO) mistake --or maybe can be explained by the supposition that the maester made reviews on his work each time the king to be given to changed (but I don't think that that's the case, I think it's really a mistake):

Varys is painted in the worst colors [without the slightest mention in his role in Tyrion's escape and Tywin's murder - in fact those events are nonexistent as if the maester writes before they've happened], while during Robert's, Joffrey's and much of Tommen's reign, Varys is a member of the small council! This discrepancy makes me think that we shouldn't put too much stock in the maester's wording due to bias and/or intent to please (in most cases anyway - on Elia's murder he's blatantly parroting...) but rather, consider him as the tool for the authors' intention to present what is generally "known" and no more.

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Carry on :-)

ETA:

To sum up, the new info we have is:

- a pact between Targs and Starks which was cancelled was called Pact of Ice and Fire

- Rhaegar and Elia resided at Dragonstone

- there was a considerable rift between Aerys and Rhaegar and their factions at the court

- council members were plotting to remove Rhaegar from the line of succession

- prior Duskendale, Aerys was cray-cray in a rather harmless way

- Rhaegar was present at Duskendale and Tywin made a very untactical remark about Rhaegar being a better replacement

- there was a mysterious sponsor behind HH, main suspect is Rhaegar

- Brandon nearly challenged Rhaegar because of the crowning

- Lyanna was abducted from near HH and Rhaegar had half a dozen companions

I would add to this list the fact that, after Rhaegar died, Viserys came before Rhaegar's children in the succession. People can disagree about what this means but it is certainly relevant to the theory that the 3KG stayed at the TOJ because Rhaegar's son came before Viserys.

It is also interesting that Rhaegar had six companions when he abducted Lyanna. It is likely that one of them was Connington. When Barristan lists out Rhaegar's friends, they include Myles Mooten, Richard Lonmouth, Lord Connington, who was "dear to him," and Arthur Dayne. And Jaime says Connington was "the next best thing" to Rhaegar.

So what does Connington think of all this?

Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar's wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him.

Note the use of the singular: "wedding." So Connington only remembers one wedding, the one between Elia and Rhaegar.

Further, Connington thinks a married man is not "free" to take a second wife.

"Daenerys Targaryen may yet come home one day," Connington told the Halfmaester. "Aegon must be free to marry her."

So, if Connington was one of Rhaegar's six companions, then either (1) Rhaegar never married Lyanna, or (2) Connington was never told that they would wed and it happened some time after Rhaegar and Connington parted ways. The latter seems unlikely to me. If Rhaegar was going to marry Lyanna, he would have done it right away, and Connington would have known about it.

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I would add to this list the fact that, after Rhaegar died, Viserys came before Rhaegar's children in the succession. People can disagree about what this means but it is certainly relevant to the theory that the 3KG stayed at the TOJ because Rhaegar's son came before Viserys.

Yeah that's probably relevant. It ties into a problem I've always had with that part of the theory. The Kingsguard do not get to choose who the next king is. (Criston Cole did not act alone.)

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I would add to this list the fact that, after Rhaegar died, Viserys came before Rhaegar's children in the succession. People can disagree about what this means but it is certainly relevant to the theory that the 3KG stayed at the TOJ because Rhaegar's son came before Viserys.

Yeah that's probably relevant. It ties into a problem I've always had with that part of the theory. The Kingsguard do not get to choose who the next king is. (Criston Cole did not act alone.)

Would the 3KG know about Viserys being Aerys' heir, though? When did Aerys declare Viserys to come before Rhaegar's children?

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If they knew about everything else they should not have known, they could have known that as well...



This strongly suggests that a lot of the dream conversation was reinvented by Ned later on after he learned the truth. We cannot be sure that he thought those knights were honorable when he killed them, after all.



By the way: What do you make of the Ned-Arthur-single-combat idea?


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I would add to this list the fact that, after Rhaegar died, Viserys came before Rhaegar's children in the succession. People can disagree about what this means but it is certainly relevant to the theory that the 3KG stayed at the TOJ because Rhaegar's son came before Viserys.

It is also interesting that Rhaegar had six companions when he abducted Lyanna. It is likely that one of them was Connington. When Barristan lists out Rhaegar's friends, they include Myles Mooten, Richard Lonmouth, Lord Connington, who was "dear to him," and Arthur Dayne. And Jaime says Connington was "the next best thing" to Rhaegar.

So what does Connington think of all this?

Note the use of the singular: "wedding." So Connington only remembers one wedding, the one between Elia and Rhaegar.

Further, Connington thinks a married man is not "free" to take a second wife.

So, if Connington was one of Rhaegar's six companions, then either (1) Rhaegar never married Lyanna, or (2) Connington was never told that they would wed and it happened some time after Rhaegar and Connington parted ways. The latter seems unlikely to me. If Rhaegar was going to marry Lyanna, he would have done it right away, and Connington would have known about it.

The problem is, we don't know whether there was enough time for the KG to have learned about Viserys having been named heir.. Such news, at the earliest, probably arrived at the same time as the news on Aerys' and Aegon's deaths.

And with two of the three KG being in Rhaegar´s close group, apparently involved in his secret plans, they might not even have cared. If Rhaegar in their eyes was already the king, in all but name, they would consider Rhaegar´s children heirs over anyone Aerys could name heir.

Also, while the laws on inheritance are extremely vague at times, we know that Gerold Hightower values his vows. Yet Aerys disinheriting his grandson and naming his second son heir, might not have fallen right with Hightower. I wonder if he felt conflicted, in between having to choose between the heir `accordign to andal law´ and the heir ´according to the king´.

Yet, is it possible that Hightower remained at the tower due to orders he had received from Rhaegar, and he personally didn't feel he was guarding the heir, the new king, but simply a member of the royal family, who needed KG protection?

As to Connington and Rhaegar wedding or not wedding Lyanna. It would all depend on when they parted ways. I can't recall where, but somewhere it has been stated that it were Whent and Dayne who helped Rhaegar "kidnap" Lyanna, suggesting that the party had split and gone their separate ways prior to Rhaegar and Lyanna coming face to face once more.

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