A prince born Bright

[Wmarshal]

Technically that could be true, but there are a bunch of subtle clues that Yandel is going with Rhaelle being Robert's legal claim to the Iron Throne. That is pretty obvious in all the sections discussing the match.

Yandel should have specified the other branch if it was not Steffon's... Going with Maegor's children would make as much sense as to with any unmentioned sons of Duncan by Jenny. They would also be Targaryens, and one of them could have survived Summerhall.

If Rhaelle did survive Summerhall, she could have been meant, personally. She was not a Baratheon, after all. Aemon would also always be a possibility, but he was clearly not meant, either. But I can only repeat it: In my opinion Yandel was sucking up to House Baratheon by trying to make Robert's Rebellion appear more justified because Robert himself had a quite a lot of Targaryen blood.

Whether any of the other Targaryen cadet branches besides the Tarths still existed at that point is far from certain. WE have no idea what happened to Elaena's Penrose children, nor is it certain that all of Rhaena's Hightower girls lived long enough to breed. However, I'd say that the present-day Velaryons are all descendants of Baela and Alyn.

Then that means that there was a total of six branches, including, Jaeherys, Saera, Rhaella, Aerys, and baby Rhaegar.

To assume all the prodigy died is much, the Plumms are alive, and Rhaena's girls would not even be mentioned if that was the case.

[Lord Varys]

Wmarshal,

the sidebar states that many people believed that the decision of the Great Council excluded both females and males from male from the succession. But that view clearly did not survive the rise of Aegon III, Viserys II, and Robert Baratheon.

Not to mention that females and males from female lines have to figure into the whole thing eventually, if all males are dead. Somebody has to sit on the throne, after all.

I'm under the impression that branches means bloodlines, not individuals. There is the main Targaryen bloodline surviving Summerhall (Jaehaerys/Shaera, their children Aerys/Rhaella, and little Rhaegar), and there is the bloodline of Princess Rhaelle (Steffon, and eventually Robert/Stannis/Renly).

I'd argue that Yandel deliberately chose to not name other branches of House Targaryens like the Tarths, the Plumms, the Penroses, the Martells, and so forth. The point of Yandel's narrative there is that the main branch of House Targaryen lost its right to rule due to Aerys' and Rhaegar's crimes, and was thus rightfully replaced by Robert Baratheon, the eldest grandson of the youngest daughter of Aegon V.

That's not exactly what happened, but that's really the way how Yandel would (and did) paint the rise of House Baratheon. Yandel also stretches the fact that Robert was a great warrior and all, to suck up to him, but he really considers his dynasty as a cadet branch of House Targaryen, which should also be the reason why his history extensively covered the history of the Targaryen reign, as Robert is as much descended from all kings from Aenys I to Aegon V as Aerys and Dany are...

[Bael's Bastard]

Actually no, it makes it quiet clear they bare a number of cousins born of female lines, Tarths, Plumms, Velaryons, Hightowers, and Penroses.

There is really no good reason to think that the comment about the tree of House Targaryen being reduced to two lonely branches after the tragedies of Egg's reign refers to a line not descended from Egg. It obviously refers to the line of Jaehaerys II/Shaera and the line of Rhaelle/Ormund Baratheon. As of now any children of Vaella, Maegor, or Duncan, let alone children of them surviving Egg's reign, are just speculation, while all of Westeros knows of the branches descended from Egg's children Jaehaerys II/Shaera and from his daughter Rhaelle with Ormund Baratheon, the branches which led each side of the war/rebellion.

[Wmarshal]

Wmarshal,

the sidebar states that many people believed that the decision of the Great Council excluded both females and males from male from the succession. But that view clearly did not survive the rise of Aegon III, Viserys II, and Robert Baratheon.

Not to mention that females and males from female lines have to figure into the whole thing eventually, if all males are dead. Somebody has to sit on the throne, after all.

I'm under the impression that branches means bloodlines, not individuals. There is the main Targaryen bloodline surviving Summerhall (Jaehaerys/Shaera, their children Aerys/Rhaella, and little Rhaegar), and there is the bloodline of Princess Rhaelle (Steffon, and eventually Robert/Stannis/Renly).

I'd argue that Yandel deliberately chose to not name other branches of House Targaryens like the Tarths, the Plumms, the Penroses, the Martells, and so forth. The point of Yandel's narrative there is that the main branch of House Targaryen lost its right to rule due to Aerys' and Rhaegar's crimes, and was thus rightfully replaced by Robert Baratheon, the eldest grandson of the youngest daughter of Aegon V.

That's not exactly what happened, but that's really the way how Yandel would (and did) paint the rise of House Baratheon. Yandel also stretches the fact that Robert was a great warrior and all, to suck up to him, but he really considers his dynasty as a cadet branch of House Targaryen, which should also be the reason why his history extensively covered the history of the Targaryen reign, as Robert is as much descended from all kings from Aenys I to Aegon V as Aerys and Dany are...

Yeah it did, Aegon and Viserys were both born of male branch. As to Robert, he was never rightful king under Targ law, Viserys lived.

And there are other bloodlines some very close Tarth. Rhaelle wasn't the only female Targ to marry out the family.

He didn't really name any lines, but he did mention a close Targ Targ match.

[Wmarshal]

There is really no good reason to think that the comment about the tree of House Targaryen being reduced to two lonely branches after the tragedies of Egg's reign refers to a line not descended from Egg. It obviously refers to the line of Jaehaerys II/Shaera and the line of Rhaelle/Ormund Baratheon. As of now any children of Vaella, Maegor, or Duncan, let alone children of them surviving Egg's reign, are just speculation, while all of Westeros knows of the branches descended from Egg's children Jaehaerys II/Shaera and from his daughter Rhaelle with Ormund Baratheon, the branches which led each side of the war/rebellion.

Well one, he never said blood of Egg, just house Targ, so assuming he meant Baratheon when they are in no way Targ cadet branch even with Rhaelle's blood makes no real sense.

[Lord Varys]

I do not know of any line suggesting that Aegon III rose to the Iron Throne because he was descended of Jaehaerys I through Baelon and Daemon. Do you?

By the time of Summerhall 'House Targaryen' was effectively Aegon V and his children and grandchildren. Perhaps Rhae and Daella's children could be considered to the extended family, too, but we really don't know anything about them. House Tarth would not be really considered to be a branch of House Targaryen.

Especially if the Tarths are actually descended from a daughter of Dunk's and Daella's - this could have resulted in all of their descendants forfeiting all their claims to the Iron Throne (as Duncan and his children - if he had any - did).

[Wmarshal]

I do not know of any line suggesting that Aegon III rose to the Iron Throne because he was descended of Jaehaerys I through Baelon and Daemon. Do you?

By the time of Summerhall 'House Targaryen' was effectively Aegon V and his children and grandchildren. Perhaps Rhae and Daella's children could be considered to the extended family, too, but we really don't know anything about them. House Tarth would not be really considered to be a branch of House Targaryen.

Especially if the Tarths are actually descended from a daughter of Dunk's and Daella's - this could have resulted in all of their descendants forfeiting all their claims to the Iron Throne (as Duncan and his children - if he had any - did).

I don't remember anywhere it states he was of the female line do you? He was of the male line. As to Viserys, he got his crown directly do to the precedent still in use.

House Targaryen was everyone with the last name Targaryen, that is how it works. How on earth does house Baratheon counts?

[Mithras]

One of the lonely branched should be Maegor's mysterious line.

[Lord Varys]

Considering that Yandel does not tell us that Maegor was still alive and whether he had any children, that's very unlikely. He carefully crafted his tale, and it would make little sense for him (or George, Ran/Linda) to refer to Maegor's line if they did not actually first introduce that line.

Especially considering that Maegor could have died at Summerhall. We do know that lots of branches of House Targaryen were cut down by that event.

[Wmarshal]

Considering that Yandel does not tell us that Maegor was still alive and whether he had any children, that's very unlikely. He carefully crafted his tale, and it would make little sense for him (or George, Ran/Linda) to refer to Maegor's line if they did not actually first introduce that line.

Especially considering that Maegor could have died at Summerhall. We do know that lots of branches of House Targaryen were cut down by that event.

he tells us nothing of Maegor, Aegon's kin sisters, or Dunk's line, though we know Dunk is the lords of Tarth's ancestor. it would make zero sense if he means Robert's, because he in no way is a Targ, he is a Baratheon.

[Veltigar]

I'm a proponent of the Brightfyre theory, but I don't think the two branches refer to Maegor's line. Lord Varys makes a compelling case, the whole book and especially the last section was made to suck up to Bobby B and the Lannisters. Of course Yandel would stress Bobby B as being the legitimate ruler in every way possible. It's obvious that he would stress the blood connection between Bobby B and the Targaryens.

[Bael's Bastard]

Well one, he never said blood of Egg, just house Targ, so assuming he meant Baratheon when they are in no way Targ cadet branch even with Rhaelle's blood makes no real sense.

What he said was, "the tragedies of Aegon the Unlikely's reign had trimmed the noble tree of House Targaryen down to just a pair of lonely branches." We know of, and the tree in the book explicitly shows, two lines in the days of Jaehaerys and Aerys: those of Jaehaerys/Shaera and Rhaelle. These are the definitely existing lines we know of, everything else is speculative. We know Maegor and Vaella were alive in 232-233, we have no idea how long (if at all) they survived beyond that, or whether they ever had any descendants at all. We don't know if Duncan and Jenny ever had any descendants, or if they survived Summerhall. In 259-262 the only lines we know for sure are the main line and the Baratheon descendants of Rhaelle. The only branches we know of are the ones which fought against eachother in the early 280s.

[Lord Varys]

If Maegor (or any of his descendants) was still alive after Summerhall we have to assume that official history had either lost him/them, or believed him dead. The fact that Yandel does not cover Maegor and his fate (and neither that of Daenora, Vaella, Rhae, Daella, or of the speculative children of Duncan and Jenny) does not necessarily mean that they were dead by that point, but it is actually very likely. At best they could be officially dead in the sense that they fled or were exiled.

TWoIaF does give us nothing to determine Maegor's fate. He could have

1. died as an infant/child/youth/adult, either childless or with one or multiple children.

2. risen in failed rebellion against Egg which could be the topic of another Dunk & Egg story and was therefore omitted from TWoIaF (Egg could have then killed or exiled him).

3. stayed at court to die at Summerhall - if he was not killed/died before 259, and if he stayed in Westeros, I think this would be the most likeliest option.

4. become a septon, maester, Kingsguard, or brother of the Night's Watch (this scenario would also have resulted in Yandel considering him officially dead as he was clearly not counting Aemon as branch of the Targaryen tree when discussing the aftermath of Summerhall).

I've tried to make a list of the potential Targaryens being killed at Summerhall. Maegor is always a suspect, as are Rhaelle, Rhae, Daella, Daenora, and Vaelle. I also hope Betha died there, too, as I'd hate the idea of her dying early.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't remember anywhere it states he was of the female line do you? He was of the male line. As to Viserys, he got his crown directly do to the precedent still in use.

House Targaryen was everyone with the last name Targaryen, that is how it works. How on earth does house Baratheon counts?

Considering that the Maesters justify Robert's claim to the throne by using his lineage through Rhaelle, and considering Yandel is a maester, who was at first writing his book for Robert, and after that for Robert's sons, emphasizing that little fact of two branches might have been rather important to him ;)

[Wmarshal]

What he said was, "the tragedies of Aegon the Unlikely's reign had trimmed the noble tree of House Targaryen down to just a pair of lonely branches." We know of, and the tree in the book explicitly shows, two lines in the days of Jaehaerys and Aerys: those of Jaehaerys/Shaera and Rhaelle. These are the definitely existing lines we know of, everything else is speculative. We know Maegor and Vaella were alive in 232-233, we have no idea how long (if at all) they survived beyond that, or whether they ever had any descendants at all. We don't know if Duncan and Jenny ever had any descendants, or if they survived Summerhall. In 259-262 the only lines we know for sure are the main line and the Baratheon descendants of Rhaelle. The only branches we know of are the ones which fought against eachother in the early 280s.

The tarths are not speculation, he mentioned them himself, and the penroses had targ blood before even elaena even wed them. As well the Plumms.

[Fae Boleyn]

Actually no, the precedent of GC 101 stated even grandsons of female lines could not inherit.

True, but this would be an emergency situation, so to speak. About their only other option would be to somehow release Aemon from his double set of vows - and get him to accept, which he's already once refused. Precedent has a way of falling by the wayside when you have no other options.

Or I suppose they could call up the Blackfyres.

I think it's obvious Yandel meant the Jaehaerys/Shaera bloodline and the Baratheons; as others have said, one of the themes is sucking up to/legitimizing the Baratheons. Of course, this doesn't mean no other lines exist - the remaining Targ ladies had to marry somebody, but they're being deliberately dismissed. I doubt they were all at Summerhall, but the last thing a history justifying the current rule wants is to mention other families with blood claims.

And Maegor, well, we don't even know where he was. If he and his mother ran away, for example (as I think is highly likely), maybe no one's even sure what became of him.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The tarths are not speculation, he mentioned them himself, and the penroses had targ blood before even elaena even wed them. As well the Plumms.

Only the Penroses had Targaryen blood pre-Elaena.

[Wmarshal]

Only the Penroses had Targaryen blood pre-Elaena.

I meant they have known Targ blood

[Wmarshal]

About the tree in the back of the book: wasn't that already stated it is not in Yandel's book but for readers?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I meant they have known Targ blood

Ah, then I think I read your post wrong :) my bad...

About the tree in the back of the book: wasn't that already stated it is not in Yandel's book but for readers?

Yeah, the trees and the art are both for the readers benefit. They are not in-universe.