A prince born Bright

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What is the point of making a statue if he is not buying it? Why should an artist waste his time to carve an expensive statue if there is no immediate customer? Why should any person buy the statue of random nobody?

Because artists use models, who aren't the buyers, usually.. That Illyrio was the model, doesn't mean that there was no customer...

[Veltigar]

I think that it's very unlikely that Varys or Illyrio was behind Summerhal. I mean how old are they supposed to be then during the main series? As old as Tywin? or older still? Perhaps Maegor was involved, but I wouldn't even be convinced of that.

Statue:

All we know that Illyrio was the model for the thing. That means he was most likely not only a bravo but a 'model/actor' as well, at the lower end of the society. Being a sentimental guy he later bought the statue from the person it was made for.

I agree, that's the most likely explanation. And since Illyrio looked like the warrior incarnated back then, I guess he would have been quite the popular model.

Velt,

interesting speculation. An interesting variation would be if Illyrio's mother died when he was still young/a child (or even in childbirth), and his stepfather/his family/other people threw him out of the house, making effectively a poor bravo. Varys would then be the guy who both uncovered his past and helped him to get revenge on those people.

I think I like this variation the most. This is now my own headcanon.

If Illyrio comes from the fourth Daemon's line (possibly being his nephew or grandson - depending on when Maelys slew Daemon) he/his family could indeed always had Blackfyre, if the Blackfyre did not lose the sword. Daemon would have had the sword as he seems to have been the most senior Blackfyre and the rightful captain-general of the Golden Company when Maelys slew him. He would have had 'the sword'.

If this is true and the BF did retain the sword, Varys might have helped to reclaim the sword from the stepfamily that threw Illyrio out (I guess they would have kept the sword for themselves as well). Forming the basis of their strong partnership (think of the possibilities, what a great novelette or novella that could be).

As to Serra:

I really like the irony more that Illyrio's Valyrian blood was way too diluted to father a child with Valyrian features. Thus Varys and Illyrio used a poor Lysene whore for the job. I've still not ye fully bought the Serra-Illyrio-love-story. That could just be a ploy Illyrio uses to bond with Tyrion. He must have realized rather early that the whole Shae thing Varys has cooked up (or allowed to happen) may have completely broken him...

Another thing I dislike about Serra being just a random courtisan is that we lose part of the irony on another front. If Faegon truly is the legitimate son of Illyrio Blackfyre and Serra Brightflame, he actually has the best claim to the IT by far. In Faegon, three superior bloodclaims to Dany would be present then.

He would be a descendant of Aegon III through Daena, which trumps the claim of the younger line of Viserys II (and the BF bring that to the table as well). Through Maegor Targaryen, Faegon would have two other claims of an older lineage as well. Aerion was Egg's older brother and his wife was the daughter of Prince Rhaegal, himself older than King Maekar I. In fact, if you take in BF propaganda as well, there is even a fourth superior claim since they would be descendants of Aegon IV which trumps being a descendant of Aemon the Dragonknight.

Based on blood alone no one beats Faegon's claim. And yet he is the pretender/usurper.

[Mithras]

If so, do you think Illyrio was not a bravo but a mummer/actor like Varys? Arya noted that he moved like a waterdancer but actors can do that too.

[Lord Varys]

Velt,

I'm not sure Varys gives all that much about claims and blood. Sure, both he and Illyrio have to have some deep connection to Westeros and its ruling dynasty, else they would not care, but the whole Aegon plan does not seem to be a 'revenge plan'. In fact, since the Aegon plan was definitely only cooked up after the War of the Usurper, we should really consider that the actual point of 'the rise of Aegon VI Targaryen' is actually to restore a long-lasting peace in Westeros.

Sure, there is the whole irony to it that the king would not actually be Aegon VI, and it may actually be part of their whole enterprise to seat a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne, but I really don't think Varys is all about revenge. I'm buying pretty much everything from his Epilogue speech insofar as the goals he wants to achieve through Aegon are concerned. That does not explain his overall motivation nor Aegon's heritage, but it gives something away about Varys' endgame - which is essentially a sort of lasting peace/great king of his design...

Maegor's descendants:

Well, we simply have no reason to assume that Maegor ever fathered children who were born in Lys (Varys, according to the official story) or ended up in a brothel there (Serra). Considering that Maegor would have been 27 at Summerhall, he could easily have been the father of Varys, but if that was the case, then GRRM has really carefully ensured that nothing suggesting as much has found its way into TWoIaF. I don't think it is impossible, but George would really have to give us Maegor/Varys' story in detail. The fact that Maegor's story is not told in TWoIaF could be a pretty big clue that he may become important and is saved for later books. The same should be true for all the missing Blackfyres.

What I find problematic about the Serra idea is that we have to assume a lot of additional stuff - especially considering that Valyrian featured slaves should be fund in abundance in Lys. Varys and Illyrio only made up the Aegon plan after the Rebellion, so they would have been in kind of hurry to produce a child as quickly as possible. Was Serra just a lucky find at that time? Or wouldn't it make more sense if they would just use a random woman, perhaps one who had already given birth to a lot of bastards with silver-god hair and purple eyes?

[Wmarshal]

Velt,

I'm not sure Varys gives all that much about claims and blood. Sure, both he and Illyrio have to have some deep connection to Westeros and its ruling dynasty, else they would not care, but the whole Aegon plan does not seem to be a 'revenge plan'. In fact, since the Aegon plan was definitely only cooked up after the War of the Usurper, we should really consider that the actual point of 'the rise of Aegon VI Targaryen' is actually to restore a long-lasting peace in Westeros.

Sure, there is the whole irony to it that the king would not actually be Aegon VI, and it may actually be part of their whole enterprise to seat a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne, but I really don't think Varys is all about revenge. I'm buying pretty much everything from his Epilogue speech insofar as the goals he wants to achieve through Aegon are concerned. That does not explain his overall motivation nor Aegon's heritage, but it gives something away about Varys' endgame - which is essentially a sort of lasting peace/great king of his design...

Maegor's descendants:

Well, we simply have no reason to assume that Maegor ever fathered children who were born in Lys (Varys, according to the official story) or ended up in a brothel there (Serra). Considering that Maegor would have been 27 at Summerhall, he could easily have been the father of Varys, but if that was the case, then GRRM has really carefully ensured that nothing suggesting as much has found its way into TWoIaF. I don't think it is impossible, but George would really have to give us Maegor/Varys' story in detail. The fact that Maegor's story is not told in TWoIaF could be a pretty big clue that he may become important and is saved for later books. The same should be true for all the missing Blackfyres.

What I find problematic about the Serra idea is that we have to assume a lot of additional stuff - especially considering that Valyrian featured slaves should be fund in abundance in Lys. Varys and Illyrio only made up the Aegon plan after the Rebellion, so they would have been in kind of hurry to produce a child as quickly as possible. Was Serra just a lucky find at that time? Or wouldn't it make more sense if they would just use a random woman, perhaps one who had already given birth to a lot of bastards with silver-god hair and purple eyes?

It is not completely unreasonable to assume Serra is his get, they described two only branches of the house remaining, and Steffon beings sent to look for a bride across the sea makes more sense if more Targayens lived there. As to the failure it makes more sense know if Serra was lose in the slave trade, because i seriously doubt it would have been all that hard to find a really hot lysenei noble.

[Lord Varys]

Steffon only traveled to Volantis in search of a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar, not to Lys. Thus it makes no sense whatsoever to assume that Steffon was supposed to find some missing Targaryen girl, and most certainly not some distant offspring of the brothel owner Saera.

The two branches of the House Targaryen left after Summerhall are, in my opinion, Jaehaerys/Shaera/Aerys/Rhaella/Rhaegar and Rhaelle/Steffon (or only Steffon, if his mother was already dead).

This was Yandel's way to refer to Robert's Targaryen heritage.

[Wmarshal]

Steffon only traveled to Volantis in search of a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar, not to Lys. Thus it makes no sense whatsoever to assume that Steffon was supposed to find some missing Targaryen girl, and most certainly not some distant offspring of the brothel owner Saera.

The two branches of the House Targaryen left after Summerhall are, in my opinion, Jaehaerys/Shaera/Aerys/Rhaella/Rhaegar and Rhaelle/Steffon (or only Steffon, if his mother was already dead).

This was Yandel's way to refer to Robert's Targaryen heritage.

I don't think cousins count when born of female lines, as if true HT has a number of branches.

[Lord Varys]

Technically that could be true, but there are a bunch of subtle clues that Yandel is going with Rhaelle being Robert's legal claim to the Iron Throne. That is pretty obvious in all the sections discussing the match.

Yandel should have specified the other branch if it was not Steffon's... Going with Maegor's children would make as much sense as to with any unmentioned sons of Duncan by Jenny. They would also be Targaryens, and one of them could have survived Summerhall.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Yandel specifically refers to noble branches of House Targaryen. That's very odd. Are there any non-noble branches of House Targaryen? Why even use the word noble if there is no need to distinguish from some branch that is non-noble? I strongly suspect that is how any possible children of Duncan and Jenny would be classified, due to Jenny's status. (Her claims to descent from First Men kings of old weren't taken seriously by anyone Yandel covers.)

This particular passage could be taken as possible evidence for the existence of descendants of Duncan and Jenny.

ETA-grammar

[Bael's Bastard]

I don't think cousins count when born of female lines, as if true HT has a number of branches.

Just look at the Targaryen tree at the back of the book. Even if it is meant for fans and not in world, it is clear that the only two known branches were the main line of Aerys/Rhaella and the line of Rhaelle with Steffon.

If Aerion had any legitimate descendants after Summerhall they are almost certainly not known by Yandel to have survived and to be alive.

The only other real possibility than Rhaelle Baratheon and Aerys/Rhaelle, IMO, is that Yandel is referring to Maelys and Egg's descendants.

But I don't think that is the case as, aside from other reasons, he refers to them as the Blackfyre pretenders.

I think the branches he is referring to are the ones on each side of Robert's Rebellion.

[Wmarshal]

Just look at the Targaryen tree at the back of the book. Even if it is meant for fans and not in world, it is clear that the only two known branches were the main line of Aerys/Rhaella and the line of Rhaelle with Steffon.

If Aerion had any legitimate descendants after Summerhall they are almost certainly not known by Yandel to have survived and to be alive.

The only other real possibility than Rhaelle Baratheon and Aerys/Rhaelle, IMO, is that Yandel is referring to Maelys and Egg's descendants.

But I don't think that is the case as, aside from other reasons, he refers to them as the Blackfyre pretenders.

I think the branches he is referring to are the ones on each side of Robert's Rebellion.

Actually no, it makes it quiet clear they bare a number of cousins born of female lines, Tarths, Plumms, Velaryons, Hightowers, and Penroses.

[Lord Varys]

If Rhaelle did survive Summerhall, she could have been meant, personally. She was not a Baratheon, after all. Aemon would also always be a possibility, but he was clearly not meant, either. But I can only repeat it: In my opinion Yandel was sucking up to House Baratheon by trying to make Robert's Rebellion appear more justified because Robert himself had a quite a lot of Targaryen blood.

Whether any of the other Targaryen cadet branches besides the Tarths still existed at that point is far from certain. WE have no idea what happened to Elaena's Penrose children, nor is it certain that all of Rhaena's Hightower girls lived long enough to breed. However, I'd say that the present-day Velaryons are all descendants of Baela and Alyn.

[Wmarshal]

My friend’s mom makes $88 /hr on the internet . She has been without work for nine months but last month her payment was $12290 just working on the internet for a few hours. browse around this site,.,,,,,

http://www.usa-review.com

Kill yourself and never respawn spammer.

[Veltigar]

Velt,

I'm not sure Varys gives all that much about claims and blood. Sure, both he and Illyrio have to have some deep connection to Westeros and its ruling dynasty, else they would not care, but the whole Aegon plan does not seem to be a 'revenge plan'. In fact, since the Aegon plan was definitely only cooked up after the War of the Usurper, we should really consider that the actual point of 'the rise of Aegon VI Targaryen' is actually to restore a long-lasting peace in Westeros.

Sure, there is the whole irony to it that the king would not actually be Aegon VI, and it may actually be part of their whole enterprise to seat a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne, but I really don't think Varys is all about revenge. I'm buying pretty much everything from his Epilogue speech insofar as the goals he wants to achieve through Aegon are concerned. That does not explain his overall motivation nor Aegon's heritage, but it gives something away about Varys' endgame - which is essentially a sort of lasting peace/great king of his design...

I don't buy any of it. If Varys had wanted a strong king with a long-lasting peace in Westeros, he had much easier ways to achieving that. Working with Ned Stark for instance. It also feels seriously out of place in this series. Both Varys and LF embody the GoT aspect of these novels. They are the plotters and the schemers, the most important players in the political arena. This won't boil down to altruistic Varys vs. egoistic LF. Both will be repulsive and have a selfish motivation for their wrongdoings.

Varys motivation must be a personal one. As a Brightflame descendant, he wants to place one of his ilk on the IT, where they belong according to him. On top of that, Varys, Serra and Illyrio are out for a much more personal revenge, that goes beyond taking pride in their family name. Varys was castrated, Serra was a whore and Illyrio most likely lived a life of exile as a poor bravo.

Varys' whole schtick about 'doing it for the children.' Doesn't make sense in any other way. He's not talking about kids in general (he's complicit in the murder of so many of them after all), he's talking about himself, Serra and Illyrio. This is a revenge for the shitty life they had to live, instead of a cushy life in the Red Keep. Faegon, his nephew in the theory I describe to, is a tool to achieve that end. He's been trained to be the ultimate asset in this struggle. The perfect posterboy and Varys is convinced that he's succeeded in creating such a kid.

It is not completely unreasonable to assume Serra is his get, they described two only branches of the house remaining, and Steffon beings sent to look for a bride across the sea makes more sense if more Targayens lived there. As to the failure it makes more sense know if Serra was lose in the slave trade, because i seriously doubt it would have been all that hard to find a really hot lysenei noble.

Steffon wasn't the only one to search for a bride with strong Valyrian heritage. Tywin was sent on a mission to Lys, I figure Tywin was sent there to find descendants of Maegor. However, since Tywin had plans of his own, he didn't actually trouble himself with a search for the Brightflames.

Maegor's descendants:

Well, we simply have no reason to assume that Maegor ever fathered children who were born in Lys (Varys, according to the official story) or ended up in a brothel there (Serra). Considering that Maegor would have been 27 at Summerhall, he could easily have been the father of Varys, but if that was the case, then GRRM has really carefully ensured that nothing suggesting as much has found its way into TWoIaF. I don't think it is impossible, but George would really have to give us Maegor/Varys' story in detail. The fact that Maegor's story is not told in TWoIaF could be a pretty big clue that he may become important and is saved for later books. The same should be true for all the missing Blackfyres.

I think Aerion and Maegor will be huge in the next D&E-tales. And there are a lot of subtle clues that hint to some connection between Varys, Serra and Maegor. The quests of Tywin and Steffon to locate a bride, Varys affinity with the secrets of the Red Keep (which links him to the Blood of the Dragon and King Maegor, who built the Red Keep after all), Aerion's threats of castration towards Egg, the similaritie between Varys and Egg, etc.

What I find problematic about the Serra idea is that we have to assume a lot of additional stuff - especially considering that Valyrian featured slaves should be fund in abundance in Lys. Varys and Illyrio only made up the Aegon plan after the Rebellion, so they would have been in kind of hurry to produce a child as quickly as possible. Was Serra just a lucky find at that time? Or wouldn't it make more sense if they would just use a random woman, perhaps one who had already given birth to a lot of bastards with silver-god hair and purple eyes?

They didn't pull Faegon out of nowhere. Imo, the original plan was much more traditionally Blackfyre. House Brightflame and Blackfyre were linked through marriage, they would get sons. Varys would subtly weaken the Realm and the three of them would start building a powerbase to field support for another Rebellion.

However, RR broke out and the whole political landscape changed. At that point Varys, Illyrio and Serra just chose to adapt their strategy and use the opportunity that presented itself.

[Mithras]

What if Illyrio was a rich descendant of Blackfyres but when they lost the Wot9PK, he lost everything and had to start over everything with Varys?

[Lord Varys]

Velt,

Varys does not strike me as an embittered person who is at his core driven by rage, revenge, or overall egoistic ambition. We would have gotten some hints that would remarkably differ from those we have. For instance, we have Littlefinger's hungry look, his speeches to Sansa etc., whereas all we have from Varys are riddles and, when he seems to be the most sincere, hints that he is not in the game for himself.

And I really think the ADwD Epilogue speech would have different as well if Varys really were in 'the game' the same way as the other players.

Something like:

'The eunuch's voice turned deeper. His curled lips gave his face a hungry look, and his sharp teeth glittered in the moon light. Kevan's guts went cold in a sudden fear.

'I have waited for a long time for this moment,' Varys hissed. 'From the day I first set foot in this castle. For the very moment I first looked upon that Iron Throne which should have been mine, and my father's before me. I've waited for decades, carefully plucking all those proud dragons, leading mad Aerys to his doom. It was eye who blew out Viserys' flame in the far Dothraki Sea, it was I who ensured that your brother did never reconcile with his childhood friend on the Iron Throne. Who do you truly killed Rickard and Brandon Stark? Who do you think guided the hand of the dwarf when he gutted the man he thought was his father?

It was I who broke the neck of every descendant of Aegon V, the man ascended the Iron Throne in the place of my father, and over the body of the grandfather of my friend across the water. Now our time has come. My nephew/cousin (whatever) will return and ascend the Iron Throne as King Aegon VI.'

'May House Targaryen reign forever.' The eunuch broke into a deep laughter. Blood glistened on his teeth, Ser Kevan saw. He must have bitten on his tongue.'

I guess I can end that here. We get nothing of this sort, and the only real purpose George could have trying to achieve with Varys' speech is to give us a glimpse into his motivation, as we are not going to meet all that often 'in private', telling 'the truth'.

I do not doubt that the original motivation may have been a revenge thing, but Varys may actually have changed over the years. The death of real Aegon (or the saving of the real Aegon) may have opened an opportunity to do something else.

But I could be wrong there.

TWoIaF does not suggests that Tywin was ever sent to Lys to find a bride for Rhaegar or a lost Targaryen princess. If he was there at all (Mercy is still subject to change) it could have on a mundane matter. After all, serving as Hand for almost twenty years you have to interact and treat with the Free Cities...

I also do not doubt that Aerion is going to come back in future Dunk & Egg stories, but I'm not sure whether he'll become all that prominent. That really depends on whether there will be a lot of stories taking place at court - that pattern has yet to be established. The Third Rebellion will feature heavily in one (or perhaps even two stories - or a short novel), but the whole thing about Egg's various enemies among the lords could be a hint that George will actually focus on other mundane matters.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Velt,

Varys does not strike me as an embittered person who is at his core driven by rage, revenge, or overall egoistic ambition. We would have gotten some hints that would remarkably differ from those we have. For instance, we have Littlefinger's hungry look, his speeches to Sansa etc., whereas all we have from Varys are riddles and, when he seems to be the most sincere, hints that he is not in the game for himself.

And I really think the ADwD Epilogue speech would have different as well if Varys really were in 'the game' the same way as the other players.

Something like:

'The eunuch's voice turned deeper. His curled lips gave his face a hungry look, and his sharp teeth glittered in the moon light. Kevan's guts went cold in a sudden fear.

'I have waited for a long time for this moment,' Varys hissed. 'From the day I first set foot in this castle. For the very moment I first looked upon that Iron Throne which should have been mine, and my father's before me. I've waited for decades, carefully plucking all those proud dragons, leading mad Aerys to his doom. It was eye who blew out Viserys' flame in the far Dothraki Sea, it was I who ensured that your brother did never reconcile with his childhood friend on the Iron Throne. Who do you truly killed Rickard and Brandon Stark? Who do you think guided the hand of the dwarf when he gutted the man he thought was his father?

It was I who broke the neck of every descendant of Aegon V, the man ascended the Iron Throne in the place of my father, and over the body of the grandfather of my friend across the water. Now our time has come. My nephew/cousin (whatever) will return and ascend the Iron Throne as King Aegon VI.'

'May House Targaryen reign forever.' The eunuch broke into a deep laughter. Blood glistened on his teeth, Ser Kevan saw. He must have bitten on his tongue.'

I guess I can end that here. We get nothing of this sort, and the only real purpose George could have trying to achieve with Varys' speech is to give us a glimpse into his motivation, as we are not going to meet all that often 'in private', telling 'the truth'.

I do not doubt that the original motivation may have been a revenge thing, but Varys may actually have changed over the years. The death of real Aegon (or the saving of the real Aegon) may have opened an opportunity to do something else.

But I could be wrong there.

TWoIaF does not suggests that Tywin was ever sent to Lys to find a bride for Rhaegar or a lost Targaryen princess. If he was there at all (Mercy is still subject to change) it could have on a mundane matter. After all, serving as Hand for almost twenty years you have to interact and treat with the Free Cities...

I also do not doubt that Aerion is going to come back in future Dunk & Egg stories, but I'm not sure whether he'll become all that prominent. That really depends on whether there will be a lot of stories taking place at court - that pattern has yet to be established. The Third Rebellion will feature heavily in one (or perhaps even two stories - or a short novel), but the whole thing about Egg's various enemies among the lords could be a hint that George will actually focus on other mundane matters.

I completely believe and agree with what you say, but the problem is that a great part of the readership has gotten used to try to look for the secret meaning in the the secret meaning.

Varys' speech was, to me, the big revelation of DwD (and the books), that we finally know what he's doing, in the same way that we finally had a glimpse of LF's mind at the end of Feast: LF is doing it for his own, and Varys is doing it for a greater good. Yet, we need to scratch the bottom of the barrel: Varys wasn't being honest, he was putting up a show for "someone" to hear him, someone who was in that very same room. Or, Varys was trying to fool his little birds in case they could go and tell someone (as they don't already know a lot).

With that kind of feeling, then I'll guess we are never going to catch Martin's real hints and he's always going to be trying to say something else. But, in the case of Varys, I think Varys is this time doing exactly what he claims to be doing: his real wishes are actually selfless. That's, IMO, a big big revelation, even more than the existence of Aegon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I completely believe and agree with what you say, but the problem is that a great part of the readership has gotten used to try to look for the secret meaning in the the secret meaning.

Varys' speech was, to me, the big revelation of DwD (and the books), that we finally know what he's doing, in the same way that we finally had a glimpse of LF's mind at the end of Feast: LF is doing it for his own, and Varys is doing it for a greater good. Yet, we need to scratch the bottom of the barrel: Varys wasn't being honest, he was putting up a show for "someone" to hear him, someone who was in that very same room. Or, Varys was trying to fool his little birds in case they could go and tell someone (as they don't already know a lot).

With that kind of feeling, then I'll guess we are never going to catch Martin's real hints and he's always going to be trying to say something else. But, in the case of Varys, I think Varys is this time doing exactly what he claims to be doing: his real wishes are actually selfless. That's, IMO, a big big revelation, even more than the existence of Aegon.

Agreed

[bent branch]

The two lonely branches are definitely Jaehaerys II/Saera Targaryen and Unknown/Rhaelle Baratheon. Think about it this way. If every Targaryen had died at Summerhall, who would have been next in line for the throne? Steffon Baratheon, that's who.

[Wmarshal]

The two lonely branches are definitely Jaehaerys II/Saera Targaryen and Unknown/Rhaelle Baratheon. Think about it this way. If every Targaryen had died at Summerhall, who would have been next in line for the throne? Steffon Baratheon, that's who.

Actually no, the precedent of GC 101 stated even grandsons of female lines could not inherit.