R+L=J v.114

[Alia of the knife]

That actually is not a bad theory, and I remember the passage about the song and it makes sense, but the only thing that gives me pause is that Dany says that if that woman were alive, she would be an old woman now, and it sort of sounds like Selmy knew who the lady was, so definitely no secrets.

And within the context of Selmys statement, the part about turning to "Stark" is suspicious because in that era, a woman would not have such a personal, nor intimate conversation with a man not her family member if it is her "dishonor" that is being alluded to.

Even today, where men and women do enjoy friendships on a casual and socially accepted level, a conversation like that could still prove awkward.

The only way she might is if in appeal for help, and to a man that would have some sort of influence. If we assume she turned to Ned for help, or the other way around, to Brandon, it could only be if that Stark had any influence on the desired outcome, and the only way that could be would be to influence another Stark, or family member.

In other words, whoever "dishonored" Ashara we assume would have been a high-ranking man, and only another high ranking man like Brandon would be in a place to challenge someone, but even then, he is from the remote north and at that point, without influence in the south, and engaged to another woman.

But if Brandon is the man, then the only one that Ashara could go to would be Ned as Brandons brother who might in turn rat out Brandon to Rickard who might have to break the betrothal to the Tullys in order to make things right with the Daynes.

Its one thing to sire a bastard on a low ranking female or common born girl, but to sire a bastard on an equally high ranking woman from an ancient and hororable family is something else.

We also need to know when Ashara turned to "Stark." Was it right then and there after the "dishonor," and about the "dishonor," or was it sometime later after the "fruit" of that dishonor became apparent?

She apparently didn't drink her tea as Arianne liked to put it.

I suppose if Ned did hold some affection for her, he might not have minded giving her his name if she did become pregnant with Lewyns child if that was the only way to have her, because as a white sword, Lewyn couldn't marry her, and at that point Ned was free. :dunno:

But, in some ways in this regard, there are parallels between Cersei/Cat and Lyanna/Ashara

For Cersei, Lyanna took the two men she had wanted, and for Cat, from the readers vantage point, Ashara had the only two men that she wanted.

I just tend to think that Ashara has become somewhat of a conflated character in terms of her originally intended role, which was to act as a red herring for Lyanna and protect Jons identity, as well as maybe add another layer of nuance to Brandon and Neds relationship, (particularly in regards to his statement to Cat about everything having been meant for Brandon).

And at the same time we get this information on Ashara, we also get more information on Brandon.

[J. Stargaryen]

That actually is not a bad theory, and I remember the passage about the song and it makes sense, but the only thing that gives me pause is that Selmy says that if that woman were alive, she would be an old woman now, so it sort of sounds like he knew who the lady was, so definitely no secrets.

It was actually Arriane who said that in AFfC, but I agree it is the fly in the ointment, so to speak. Then again, maybe it was just rhetorical on Arriane's part; e.g., she used to be young and beautiful but now, ~20 years later, she's an old woman. Or, maybe it was a hint of sorts that Ashara is still alive.

The points about "turned to Stark" are certainly worth considering, and definitely require an answer.

[Alia of the knife]

It was actually Arriane who said that in AFfC, but I agree it is the fly in the ointment, so to speak. Then again, maybe it was just rhetorical on Arriane's part; e.g., she used to be young and beautiful but now, ~20 years later, she's an old woman. Or, maybe it was a hint of sorts that Ashara is still alive.

The points about "turned to Stark" are certainly worth considering, and definitely require an answer.

Well thats true. My friends seven year old daughter thinks her teacher is old, and she is only twenty~eight.

Answers would be nice, and lots of them. :)

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Though that leads both ways.

OT1H if they don't have any insignia, and presumably the dancer was not in armour (or 'on duty') at the time, then how would the little crannogman have identified the dancer as a 'white sword'.

If they do sometmes carry personal insignia, especially if off-duty, then there is no doubt really it must have been Arthur Dayne.

Let's not forget that one of the first things mentioned in the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, after Howland reaches Harrenhal is the Kingsguard officially having Jaime join their ranks. Presumably for such an occasion they'd all be "in uniform" so to speak and since Howland apparently saw it, he could very well have recognized one of the men he'd seen before. So whichever Kingsguard dancing with Ashara could still be recognizable as a Kingsguard even if he wasn't wearing anything identifying him as such (and also Howland was with the Starks who probably could've told him who was who)

[TheLordProtector]

When I first start reading these forums this was at R+L=J v. 84.

Lots of people have lots to say on this topic and it seems that it's basically head-canon at this stage.

My thoughts always turn to the reveal after a few minutes; how will GRRM reveal the secret and how it will impact Jon and the storyline overall.

These next paragraphs are obviously 100% fan fiction but it would be my ideal scenario and would be the least forced option (in my head) but probably the most anti-climactic.

Jon, having been stabbed near to death, is in a coma and we get his first chapter maybe a third of the way into tWoW. In his coma he's having all sorts of dreams; the crypt dreams, bran visiting him etc etc and then we come to a dragon dream in reverse; he sees the past, not the future. In his dream the circumstances of his birth and his parentage are revealed to him.

When he awakes it's left to him to struggle with this knowledge, to come to terms with it and finally to act on it. He knows that he is the prince that was promised and it's he that has to lead the charge against the others. Fulfilling his fathers prophecy by accepting his duty, as was thought to him by his adoptive father.

He saves Westeros / the world and dies a tragic death, without his parentage ever becoming widely known. He will be the hero gotham westeros deserves.

[addicted to snow]

When I first start reading these forums this was at R+L=J v. 84.

Lots of people have lots to say on this topic and it seems that it's basically head-canon at this stage.

My thoughts always turn to the reveal after a few minutes; how will GRRM reveal the secret and how it will impact Jon and the storyline overall.

These next paragraphs are obviously 100% fan fiction but it would be my ideal scenario and would be the least forced option (in my head) but probably the most anti-climactic.

Jon, having been stabbed near to death, is in a coma and we get his first chapter maybe a third of the way into tWoW. In his coma he's having all sorts of dreams; the crypt dreams, bran visiting him etc etc and then we come to a dragon dream in reverse; he sees the past, not the future. In his dream the circumstances of his birth and his parentage are revealed to him.

When he awakes it's left to him to struggle with this knowledge, to come to terms with it and finally to act on it. He knows that he is the prince that was promised and it's he that has to lead the charge against the others. Fulfilling his fathers prophecy by accepting his duty, as was thought to him by his adoptive father.

He saves Westeros / the world and dies a tragic death, without his parentage ever becoming widely known. He will be the hero gotham westeros deserves.

That is so not going to happen... Resolution to this story will come about in a way pretty much no one will see coming, yet the reader will be able to look back & see tons of foreshadowing... That is the way that GRRM writes... Any predictions that depict Jon as a good-guy or a hero have a zero % chance of success...

R+L = J = TPTWP'ed = AAR = Rightful King of the 7 Kingdoms = The Savior of Westeros &/or The World :: Is far too simple for GRRM's Writing Style... Not to mention too predictable... Though I can agree on the R+L = J part of the Equation...

[Ghost's Shadow]

That ending line kind of makes me want to barf, though.

Westeros doesn't seem to 'deserve' much, these days.

[TheLordProtector]

That is so not going to happen... Resolution to this story will come about in a way pretty much no one will see coming, yet the reader will be able to look back & see tons of foreshadowing... That is the way that GRRM writes... Any predictions that depict Jon as a good-guy or a hero have a zero % chance of success...

R+L = J = TPTWP'ed = AAR = Rightful King of the 7 Kingdoms = The Savior of Westeros &/or The World :: Is far too simple for GRRM's Writing Style... Not to mention too predictable...

I'm hearing you and I completely agree that it will be in a way that pretty much nobody will expect. Having said that ; at least one person has pretty much guessed each and everyone of the twists thus far and so you can't write off any single theory as to how things will turn out.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts (and everyone else's) on how the reveal will come about. Regardless of how Jon is likely to act on the knowledge.

[TheLordProtector]

That ending line kind of makes me want to barf, though.

Westeros doesn't seem to 'deserve' much, these days.

And this makes me wish I could 'Like' a post. Definitely barf worthy. But then again ; he did promise a 'bittersweet' ending ;)

[Ghost's Shadow]

The thing is, when people see 'bittersweet' ending, they always come in and say how Jon is going to die.

Sure, some will say it's Dany, but why on earth can people only call it bittersweet when one of those two will die, or heck, why do over half of the POVs need to die for people to realise how many deaths there's been in Westeros by the end? It's completely ridiculous!

Those wars have already devastated the lands, and then the Others haven't even stopped by, to make people hide and starve in their castles (there's already no more food in some regions, thank you, war).

How many of the smallfolk - the hard working people least deserving of all of that death whether by war or Others - have already died, and will have no place to go when the Others stop by?

When there's chapters on all that suffering, people call them BORING. Ridiculous. They're meant to make you feel or think about the common man when all you have are POVs of Lords of lordlings and their Games.

This story is already bittersweet, if only one would take a moment to think about things, and what the near future is going to be like. But no, it'll only register when main POVs die.

[TheLordProtector]

GRRM has spent 5 books - 7000 pages - building his main characters up and asking readers to relate to them. A bitter-sweet ending for readers is not going to be all about some random pot boy in the riverlands being skewered by an Other.

A bitter-sweet ending for readers is going to involve one or more of the main characters that we have lived the story through. Surely that's bloody obvious?

[BearQueen87]

R+L = J = TPTWP'ed = AAR = Rightful King of the 7 Kingdoms = The Savior of Westeros &/or The World :: Is far too simple for GRRM's Writing Style... Not to mention too predictable... Though I can agree on the R+L = J part of the Equation...

Oh there you go again, putting words in our mouth.

You do get that not everyone here believes all this right?

I'll use myself as an example

I believe RLJ; I believed RL = Legit J; I believe J = TPTWP; I do not believe J = / =AAR; I don't believe J = the only savior of the world. GRRM doesn't view the world as such.

However there are people who believe RLJ as much as I do and who disagree about some of my disagreements. We're not a homogenous lump of people.

I'm hearing you and I completely agree that it will be in a way that pretty much nobody will expect. Having said that ; at least one person has pretty much guessed each and everyone of the twists thus far and so you can't write off any single theory as to how things will turn out.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts (and everyone else's) on how the reveal will come about. Regardless of how Jon is likely to act on the knowledge.

I foresee it being two ways: Bran through visions and Jon meeting HR. By the time Jon has met Reed, though, he'll have been clued into RLJ.

I also think Sam might put it together.

GRRM has spent 5 books - 7000 pages - building his main characters up and asking readers to relate to them. A bitter-sweet ending for readers is not going to be all about some random pot boy in the riverlands being skewered by an Other.

A bitter-sweet ending for readers is going to involve one or more of the main characters that we have lived the story through. Surely that's bloody obvious?

Oh sure. I personally think quite a few people will die. Off the top of my head: Jaime, Cersei, Bran, Vic, Barry, Theon, JonCon...and I'm coming around to the idea that Dany might die as well.

Jon I have pegged as living, though.

[sj4iy]

That is so not going to happen... Resolution to this story will come about in a way pretty much no one will see coming, yet the reader will be able to look back & see tons of foreshadowing... That is the way that GRRM writes... Any predictions that depict Jon as a good-guy or a hero have a zero % chance of success...

R+L = J = TPTWP'ed = AAR = Rightful King of the 7 Kingdoms = The Savior of Westeros &/or The World :: Is far too simple for GRRM's Writing Style... Not to mention too predictable... Though I can agree on the R+L = J part of the Equation...

Between:

Believing R+L = J = TPTWP'ed = AAR = Rightful King of the 7 Kingdoms = The Savior of Westeros &/or The World,

and

Believing Jon will die, warg Ghost, find Hodor, jump his spirit to him (despite the fact that is explicitly impossible in the story and Jon isn't nearly so powerful to warg a human being anyway), and then Jon/Hodor becomes the Night's King,

I know which one I would choose as "most likely to happen".

/not that I believe that Jon is a messiah figure

//I'm simply illustrating the absurdity of this position

[Mithras]

That is so not going to happen... Resolution to this story will come about in a way pretty much no one will see coming, yet the reader will be able to look back & see tons of foreshadowing... That is the way that GRRM writes... Any predictions that depict Jon as a good-guy or a hero have a zero % chance of success...

R+L = J = TPTWP'ed = AAR = Rightful King of the 7 Kingdoms = The Savior of Westeros &/or The World :: Is far too simple for GRRM's Writing Style... Not to mention too predictable... Though I can agree on the R+L = J part of the Equation...

Replace AAR with Lightbringer and I would agree the equation. If it is too predictable, why I feel like I am the only one who believes in this equation?

[BearQueen87]

Replace AAR with Lightbringer and I would agree the equation. If it is too predictable, why I feel like I am the only one who believes in this equation?

Yes.

There is no one true hero that will save everyone all by himself! Not how GRRM views the world.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Replace AAR with Lightbringer and I would agree the equation. If it is too predictable, why I feel like I am the only one who believes in this equation?

Perhaps GRRM has gotten his readers to be so convinced that he never does anything predictable that the predictable becomes the unpredictable.

[sj4iy]

Perhaps GRRM has gotten his readers to be so convinced that he never does anything predictable that the predictable becomes the unpredictable.

Honestly, I don't get this sentiment. It's not really that unpredictable at all. We had foreshadowing for Ned's death, we had TONS of foreshadowing for Robb's death, and Jon's attack was foreshadowed all throughout ADWD. It's not like this stuff just comes out of 'nowhere' like many people proclaim it does. Now, in the show, that's different- since we don't have the prophecies, dreams and visions. But in the books? Not at all. For people to act like Martin is simply going to 'throw away' 5 books worth of foreshadowing just to be 'unpredictable' with Jon's fate is absolutely astounding to me, considering that Martin has never simply thrown foreshadowing out the door before now.

[BearQueen87]

Oh I think Jon is "the guy" who will "do the thing" that will restore balance to the world--but that doesn't mean that he is the one true hero of this saga. It takes a village. That's what I'm arguing against with Mr. Mithras.

[sj4iy]

Oh I think Jon is "the guy" who will "do the thing" that will restore balance to the world--but that doesn't mean that he is the one true hero of this saga. It takes a village. That's what I'm arguing against with Mr. Mithras.

I agree that he's not the only hero. I think he's one of them, but he won't be the only one important to the outcome of the story.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Honestly, I don't get this sentiment. It's not really that unpredictable at all. We had foreshadowing for Ned's death, we had TONS of foreshadowing for Robb's death, and Jon's attack was foreshadowed all throughout ADWD. It's not like this stuff just comes out of 'nowhere' like many people proclaim it does. Now, in the show, that's different- since we don't have the prophecies, dreams and visions. But in the books? Not at all. For people to act like Martin is simply going to 'throw away' 5 books worth of foreshadowing just to be 'unpredictable' with Jon's fate is absolutely astounding to me, considering that Martin has never simply thrown foreshadowing out the door before now.

I was being a little facetious. I guess i should have used an emoticon to make that clear. Just like GRRM is not really the trope buster people proclaim him to be, of course he does not just throw in curve balls left and right just for the sake of unpredictability--although of course he does both to some extent.