R+L=J v.114

[IceFire125]

It is interesting :)

See, I am much more cautious about dishonoring himself in front of Elia because I tend to think that there is a lot about Elia we haven't been told yet. I think she was like a partner in all this. She might not have known what Rhaegar was planning when he presented that crown to Lyanna but I think R/E talked a lot about his plans--politically and prophetically.

It's all within speculation and what the readers feel.

And I agree with you, just as Visenya probably was not happy with Aegon deciding to marry Rhaenys, after their marriage (due to their parents making them, thus 'for duty'); I also feel Rhaegar was reasonable to at least impart to Elia of his wish. Knowing that she could not risk another child, unless resulting in death, Rhaegar must have shared with her his plans. To what extent he told Elia about his plans, we don't know, but it was enough for Elia to read between the lines, seeing Rhaegar in deep study and research about the prophecy, and wanting another legitimate child, that in the end she would've understood and was willing to go along with Rhaegar's plans, if not, she was able to keep private her feelings rather in open protest in front of the king or high septon.

[corbon]

On Baratheon genes, note that the Baratheon genes were 100% dominant over everybody (at least in the research Ned did), not just Lannisters.

Those genes really are that dominant.

Every other family, including Targaryens, seems to be a bit more of a mixture with offspring favouring either parent rather than one being truly dominant. The Targaryens maintained their look by as much interbreeding and careful selection outside their house as possible, not because it was particualrly dominant.

Curiously it seems that the Lannisters are the only family that comes close to being as genetically dominant as the Baratheons. Are there any Lannisters without blonde hair and/or green eyes? (Mind you, theres no little inbreeding there either in recent times)

But even they bow down to the Baratheon coal-black and blue.

I think the second point follows from the first. Point 1: the vast majority of people with one Targaryen parent have Targaryen features (after all, their heritage is "proclaimed" by those features),

Note that the majority of children that we know about with 1 Targaryen parent have either a Targaryen, a part-Targaryen, or some-other-House-with-Valyrian-looks 2nd parent.

Nothing at all follows from a first point so horribly flawed.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

On Baratheon genes, note that the Baratheon genes were 100% dominant over everybody (at least in the research Ned did), not just Lannisters.

Those genes really are that dominant.

Indicating that perhaps Ned didn't do that great a job of research, as Princess Rhaenys (the Queen Who Never Was) had the Valyrian look despite a Baratheon mother. Her children, Laena and Laenor Velaryon also had the Valyrian look.

Curiously it seems that the Lannisters are the only family that comes close to being as genetically dominant as the Baratheons. Are there any Lannisters without blonde hair and/or green eyes? (Mind you, theres no little inbreeding there either in recent times)

Cleos Frey, perhaps? He has a Lannister mother, at least. One of Tion Frey and Willem Lannister also had brown hair (one would assume this was Tion but who knows)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On Baratheon genes, note that the Baratheon genes were 100% dominant over everybody (at least in the research Ned did), not just Lannisters.

Those genes really are that dominant.

I seem to recall that it was specifically stated that everytime a Baratheon and a Lannister had a child, the child looked like the Baratheon.. no mention of other children and their looks..

We begin with a Valyrian looking Targaryen (Aegon 1) and we end with one (Dany), but as we can see, there were plenty of Targs in between with different looks. That might have been the case for House Baratheon as well..

[Disputatious]

Melisandre doesn't say that- Val does. Melisandre says "I see you everytime I look into my flames", and Val says that she sees "Kings and dragons".

And she does- Jon is both. He is a metaphorical dragon, but a dragon, nonetheless.

Daenerys is also a dragon in the metaphorical sense and royalty as well.

Melisandre, for her part, wants to wake a real dragon: that was what she promised Stannis if he would agree to the sacrifice of Edric Storm.

[sj4iy]

Daenerys is also a dragon in the metaphorical sense and royalty as well.

Melisandre, for her part, wants to wake a real dragon: that was what she promised Stannis if he would agree to the sacrifice of Edric Storm.

I think you are completely and utterly missing my point.

This isn't about what Melisandre thinks or what she promised Stannis or what Dany is.

This is about what Melisandre SEES in her fires. And she is seeing Jon Snow. Every time. We see that she sees Jon Snow, as well.

Val then tells Jon that Melisandre sees things in her fires. When he tried to wave it off by saying "Ashes and Cinders", Val says that Melisandre sees "Kings and Dragons". We know that she has seen Jon. She always sees Jon. Jon is a king and a dragon.

It's clearly foreshadowing. No one is arguing that Dany isn't a dragon or that she isn't a queen- I'm saying that this particular quote is referencing Jon.

[corbon]

I seem to recall that it was specifically stated that everytime a Baratheon and a Lannister had a child, the child looked like the Baratheon.. no mention of other children and their looks..

My recollection is that the lineage book listed all the Baratheons (Lords and their heirs at least), all with black hair and blue eyes. Only some married Lannisters, most married non-Lannisters. Plus Roberts siblings, his bastards, and Shireen.

ETA: To clarify, every lord was the product of his Baratheon father and 'other' mother. Most 'other' mothers were not Lannisters, but were all from over. I think the mother's descriptions were there as well, all different colourings but I'm not sure about that (might be thinking of the various women Robert sired bastards on). So thus we have plenty of non-Lannister women (I have a Hightower stuck in my mind associated with this list, but again, maybe misremembering something else) matched up to a Baratheon Lord and producing black haired blued eyed children. And one or two blonde/green Lannister women in the list just to confirm that even the gold falls before the coal.

Surely someone can find and post the list from the books?

Apparently Baratheon women don't necessarily pass on the magic (or literary) genes.

[sj4iy]

My recollection is that the lineage book listed all the Baratheons (Lords and their heirs at least), all with black hair and blue eyes. Only some married Lannisters, most married non-Lannisters. Plus Roberts siblings, his bastards, and Shireen.

Apparently Baratheon women don't necessarily pass on the magic (or literary) genes.

It's only located on the Y-chromosome :)

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Daenerys is also a dragon in the metaphorical sense and royalty as well.

Melisandre, for her part, wants to wake a real dragon: that was what she promised Stannis if he would agree to the sacrifice of Edric Storm.

Yeah. She's bat-shit crazy. She wants to wake the stone dragon. You know who else was crazy. Viserys. He had Targ blood by both parents but was claimed to not be a dragon. In this light, why would Jon be considered a dragon?

I don't get the Jon is a dragon ideal. He may have dragon blood, but he is most like Ghost. The wolf [with ice (or should I say snow?) in his veins] that belongs to the old gods. Right

[BearQueen87]

Yeah. She's bat-shit crazy. She wants to wake the stone dragon. You know who else was crazy. Viserys. He had Targ blood by both parents but was claimed to not be a dragon. In this light, why would Jon be considered a dragon?

I don't get the Jon is a dragon ideal. He may have dragon blood, but he is most like Ghost. The wolf [with ice (or should I say snow?) in his veins] that belongs to the old gods. Right

Jon is not one or the other. He is both.

[sj4iy]

Yeah. She's bat-shit crazy. She wants to wake the stone dragon. You know who else was crazy. Viserys. He had Targ blood by both parents but was claimed to not be a dragon. In this light, why would Jon be considered a dragon?

I don't get the Jon is a dragon ideal. He may have dragon blood, but he is most like Ghost. The wolf [with ice (or should I say snow?) in his veins] that belongs to the old gods. Right

And Rhaegar has been called 'the last dragon'. What made him one? He had the same blood as Dany and Viserys. What makes a dragon a dragon? Does 'not being insane' count? Because that fits Jon, as well. Does 'being capable' count? Does 'smart and talented and capable of amazing things' count as well? Because all of those cover Jon.

I see no reason why Jon can't be considered 'a dragon' simply because he doesn't know it yet or because he's a wolf. He can be both- really, that's the point of Jon, is that he IS both.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I don't see it. I wouldn't call Robb a Tully even though his has that blood. His physical appearance says so, but I would definitely call him a wolf. The hotter side of the Stark apple. Same difference with Jon. That's my opinion.

[BearQueen87]

I don't see it. I wouldn't call Robb a Tully even though his has that blood. His physical appearance says so, but I would definitely call him a wolf. The hotter side of the Stark apple. Same difference with Jon. That's my opinion.

So Jon isn't dutiful, considerate, and good at everything he does? Like Rhaegar? He isn't hot tempered at times? He isn't privileged at times? Like Dany?

The problem here is trying to categorize exactly what a "dragon" is. It's many things. It's not just CRAZY!!!!! Jon is the balance. Is the fire and the ice. The is the dragon and the wolf.

And the difference with Robb is that Robb KNOWS his full heritage. And he is like Cat and he is like Ned.

[sj4iy]

I don't see it. I wouldn't call Robb a Tully even though his has that blood. His physical appearance says so, but I would definitely call him a wolf. The hotter side of the Stark apple. Same difference with Jon. That's my opinion.

Jon's mother was the wolf. Jon's father was the dragon. By your reasoning, Jon shouldn't be considered a 'wolf' at all since the mother's side apparently doesn't count.

Robb looks like a Tully. His greatest allies were the Tullies. He's most definitely a Tully AND a Stark, just like Jon is both Stark AND Targaryen.

The whole point of Jon is that he is balance between ice and fire. He has both. There is plenty of 'fire' in Jon...the difference is that he simply has the 'ice' side to temper him.

Of course, you've yet to tell me what qualifies or disqualifies Jon from BEING a dragon in the first place, because that's sort of important if you want to disqualify Jon from being a dragon. So, tell me- what makes some Targaryens dragons while others are not?

[sj4iy]

So Jon isn't dutiful, considerate, and good at everything he does? Like Rhaegar? He isn't hot tempered at times? He isn't privileged at times? Like Dany?

The problem here is trying to categorize exactly what a "dragon" is. It's many things. It's not just CRAZY!!!!! Jon is the balance. Is the fire and the ice. The is the dragon and the wolf.

And the difference with Robb is that Robb KNOWS his full heritage. And he is like Cat and he is like Ned.

Well, it can't be crazy, because Rhaegar was considered a dragon and he was not crazy.

[BearQueen87]

Well, it can't be crazy, because Rhaegar was considered a dragon and he was not crazy.

I agree. Everyone seems to want to associate "crazy" to the Targs across the board. It's like saying all Starks are honorable just because of Ned.

[sj4iy]

I agree. Everyone seems to want to associate "crazy" to the Targs across the board. It's like saying all Starks are honorable just because of Ned.

I'll also add that Dany isn't crazy, either. Really, I think people are too quick to throw the word 'crazy' on the Targs when it's very clear that some are and some aren't. Making questionable decisions doesn't make one crazy.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I don't think crazy is every Targ. I have seen posts here claiming that blood doesn't make a Targ a Dragon yet Jon's blood makes him a Dragon. I don't see it that way. Jon seems most like Ned and Robb seems most like a Stark blend. Rhaegar and Ned were not good at eveything. They were most efficient, but still had their moments of not using their brains. Politics.

I guess the Starkness shines in the children because Ned was the teacher of the family, besides the other household teachers. Septa, Maester etc. Cat... not so much. She brushed Sansa's hair one time. :) Seriously though, she never came across as the hands on parenting type.

I'm straying off the subject. I don't recall any personality traits of Rhaegar except Barristan's description of excelling, which is a bit overdone, imo. We know he wasn't the political mind of his time. Other than that...

[sj4iy]

I don't think crazy is every Targ. I have seen posts here claiming that blood doesn't make a Targ a Dragon yet Jon's blood makes him a Dragon. I don't see it that way. Jon seems most like Ned and Robb seems most like a Stark blend. Rhaegar and Ned were not good at eveything. They were most efficient, but still had their moments of not using their brains. Politics.

I guess the Starkness shines in the children because Ned was the teacher of the family, besides the other household teachers. Septa, Maester etc. Cat... not so much. She brushed Sansa's hair one time. :) Seriously though, she never came across as the hands on parenting type.

I'm straying off the subject. I don't recall any personality traits of Rhaegar except Barristan's description of excelling, which is a bit overdone, imo. We know he wasn't the political mind of his time. Other than that...

To me, Jon is a 'sleeping' dragon for the following reasons:

1. He has dragon dreams (I don't think they are connected to him being a Stark, because the only other Stark that has as many prophetic dreams as he does is Bran, and Jon's not a greenseer. We see that Dany has prophetic dreams as he does)

2. He has quite a temper (as we've seen in his reactions to Thorne, he lets his temper get the best of him at times)

3. He has unexplainable strength at times (We see him go berserker on Iron Emmett and we see him pull out a spear that had been driven into the frozen ground with one yank while other men were struggling to do the same. I don't know if this means anything or not, but it's noticeable that Jon has done this type of thing more than once when he was angry)

4. He is an excellent rider (could be directly related to him one day riding a dragon, but his horsemanship is top-notch and even downright amazing at times. He mounted a horse without a saddle while in the midst of a fight and with only one hand, and we've seen other times where he's calmed down his horse with just a word)

5. He is constantly appearing in Melisandre's visions (she wants to wake a sleeping dragon, and is trying to find ways to do so with 'king's blood'. Jon just happens to be lying on the ground bleeding when we leave him. I somehow don't think this is a coincidence at all)

[BearQueen87]

I don't think crazy is every Targ. I have seen posts here claiming that blood doesn't make a Targ a Dragon yet Jon's blood makes him a Dragon. I don't see it that way. Jon seems most like Ned and Robb seems most like a Stark blend. Rhaegar and Ned were not good at eveything. They were most efficient, but still had their moments of not using their brains. Politics.

I guess the Starkness shines in the children because Ned was the teacher of the family, besides the other household teachers. Septa, Maester etc. Cat... not so much. She brushed Sansa's hair one time. :) Seriously though, she never came across as the hands on parenting type.

I'm straying off the subject. I don't recall any personality traits of Rhaegar except Barristan's description of excelling, which is a bit overdone, imo. We know he wasn't the political mind of his time. Other than that...

The world book disagrees.

ETA: Also, Cat isn't a hands on parent? She was pretty much Robb right's hand before and after he became the King in the North. When she arrives at Moat Cailin, she's the one who gently guides him and teaches him.