R+L=J v.114

[TGO]

On the contrary, you've read too little into it.

Care to provide some examples?

Every time i try to post the quotes from Sj4iy's sig dropbox the text turns huge and bold and overlaps previous quotes and i'm too lazy to write each and every one out but i did try. A lot of them are unrelated and don't really hint towards anything to do with Jon's birth. The ones i will give him credit for are those of Lyanna asking for Ned to promise her something, this could be to keep a child safe but it could also be something entirely different. We know Rhaegar raped her quite a bit so it is definitely possible that she wound up pregnant but at the same time i highly doubt the woman would've wanted to havea child with a man who rapes her constantly, There are dozens upon dozens of methods of keeping from getting pregnant even in ASoIaF.

Melisandre doesn't say that- Val does. Melisandre says "I see you everytime I look into my flames", and Val says that she sees "Kings and dragons".

And she does- Jon is both. He is a metaphorical dragon, but a dragon, nonetheless.

I find it enjoyable that i've been told in a post that i am apparently ignoring the arguments everyone here is posting yet right here you are ignoring those of others who don't want it to be R+L=J.

If he was truly Ned Stark's bastard then why the mystery? Why spend 6 books not telling us? If it's "nothing spectacular" then there is no reason not to tell and to drop all the hints about RL.

And you have zero idea how learning RLJ will affect Jon. Who says he is going to suddenly be Jon Targaryen and make a play for the iron throne. Most of us here don't even believe that.

Other posters have theories on this. The mother herself is a mystery and the father is open for debate as-well. Unlike the lot of you claim i have never once said the R*L=J theory is by any means not a solid one, if Jon was part Targaryen the reason for concealing him from Cat is plain and obvious, Tullys value family over all and housing a secret Targaryen would have been treason and a risk to the Stark family.

What you do not take into account is that the woman who gave birth to Jon Snow also may not have been Lyanna, it could've been anyone just as Ned could have been the father as easily as Rhaegar. One poster here claims he takes into account all of the possibilities and has been agreed upon by others yet everyone is refusing to consider the dull possibility that Ned could be Jon's father. The mother could very well have been a woman Cat had known for gods sake, Ned was gone during a war and didn't even fully know Cat, falling in love with another woman would have been simple and easy, look at Robb for instance. He barely knew his wife yet he loved her all the same during their short time together.

I already said that this theory has absolutely no bearing on whether he gets the throne or not. They are separate issues, and you will find many who absolutely believe R+L=J but don't believe Jon will ever sit the throne. Stop equating the two.

He hasn't changed anything to "make" Jon into a Targaryen. It's there from the very first pages of the very first book. In fact, it is most heavily foreshadowed in the first book because we have Ned's POV. Every subsequent book (even the World Book) supports it.

Which ones, exactly? If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, then stop talking in generalizations and tell me which quotes have nothing to do with the theory. I bet I could tell you why each and every quote on that list has a bearing on it.

See, there's your problem. You simply don't want it to be true. Myself? I personally don't care whether it's true or not, as long as Martin writes an alternative that is equally plausible and makes just as much sense. Give me an alternative that is equally plausible and I'll consider it. I go by logic...not by feelings. I like Jon's character, but I'm not so emotionally invested in him to the point that I can't consider real evidence. You seem to dislike him so much that you refuse to look at the evidence.

I don't even know what the hell the last part of your run-on sentence means. Feel free to give actual examples of why you think my list is wrong- otherwise, quit insulting my intelligence. People who can't back up their position with facts and quotes and instead resort to insulting others by calling them "fan girls" and "circle jerks" really don't have anything worthwhile to say in the first place.

Please read the above posts as-well, I can't seem to copy + paste any of your quotes and passages from the books that you have in the signature dropbox so i can't bring out spot-on quotes. I did not equate the two possibilites of Jon maybe being half Targaryen and the possibility that he will end up on the throne. You say you consider possibilites yet ignore several and claim me to be ignoring those that you want to happen. No i do not want Jon to be on the throne nor do i want him to be a Targaryen but you just as quite a few others here; do want him to be a Targaryen otherwise you would not be backing the theory so much. I am opinionated and a little bias with my comments that i will admit but i am not stupid and certainly do not ignore any of the notes in your dropbox, in the start of this thread or in the books despite initally forgetting one in my original post. Whether any of you want him on the throne or not is invalid because again it is a possibility.

You claim i am insulting your intelligence, no; you've brought up some valid points and i can agree that they do sound plausible and add to the idea but you've also brought up pointless ones. I am in no way insulting your intelligence; i am insulting the contradictions you've made throughout your posts in these last few pages just as you have with those i've made.

I have not read tWoIaF yet but i do plan on reading it so it is possible there are some additional points in there that could back your argument. As for the alternative i have stated one or two possible alternatives in my earlier post.

You've all here also taken my odd wording and trash-mouth the wrong way, by Circle-jerking and fangirls i simply meant that while you all aren't by any means on the level to be considered fangirls there are other forums that are practically run by them to the point that they're so desperate for R*L=J / Jon + Dany to happen and so desperate for him to be alive that they've even made the pointless prediction that LS gives the last of her life to revivie him. None of you have gone that far and none of you have even mentioned Dany in this debate which i'm thankful for; instead there's another dilemma of mistaking what i'm saying as something else. As for the circle-jerk comment i meant we seem to be circling between the same thing over and over. Fact is that both arguments are plausbible and neither are fact; they're both theories and tWoW / aDoS will confirm one or the other, until then they're both just as likely.

[BearQueen87]

Every time i try to post the quotes from Sj4iy's sig dropbox the text turns huge and bold and overlaps previous quotes and i'm too lazy to write each and every one out but i did try. A lot of them are unrelated and don't really hint towards anything to do with Jon's birth. The ones i will give him credit for are those of Lyanna asking for Ned to promise her something, this could be to keep a child safe but it could also be something entirely different. We know Rhaegar raped her quite a bit so it is definitely possible that she wound up pregnant but at the same time i highly doubt the woman would've wanted to havea child with a man who rapes her constantly, There are dozens upon dozens of methods of keeping from getting pregnant even in ASoIaF.

Oh we know Rhaegar raped Lyanna, huh? Says who? Robert Baratheon. Why would Ned think positively of the man who raped his sister countless times?

What you do not take into account is that the woman who gave birth to Jon Snow also may not have been Lyanna, it could've been anyone just as Ned could have been the father as easily as Rhaegar. One poster here claims he takes into account all of the possibilities and has been agreed upon by others yet everyone is refusing to consider the dull possibility that Ned could be Jon's father. The mother could very well have been a woman Cat had known for gods sake, Ned was gone during a war and didn't even fully know Cat, falling in love with another woman would have been simple and easy, look at Robb for instance. He barely knew his wife yet he loved her all the same during their short time together.

Actually no given Ned's code of honor and his views on marriage and fidelity.

[Ygrain]

We know Rhaegar raped her quite a bit so it is definitely possible that she wound up pregnant but at the same time i highly doubt the woman would've wanted to havea child with a man who rapes her constantly, There are dozens upon dozens of methods of keeping from getting pregnant even in ASoIaF.

Actually, we know that it wasn't rape.

What you do not take into account is that the woman who gave birth to Jon Snow also may not have been Lyanna, it could've been anyone just as Ned could have been the father as easily as Rhaegar. One poster here claims he takes into account all of the possibilities and has been agreed upon by others yet everyone is refusing to consider the dull possibility that Ned could be Jon's father. The mother could very well have been a woman Cat had known for gods sake, Ned was gone during a war and didn't even fully know Cat, falling in love with another woman would have been simple and easy, look at Robb for instance. He barely knew his wife yet he loved her all the same during their short time together.

No. Just no. This is not RL where it could have been almost any woman whom Ned encountered during the war. This is a piece of literature, with a mystery, and these things are written according to certain rules, and must make sense on top of it. If Jon's mother is a mystery, then there must be a damn good reason, and Cat knowing the woman is not a reason not to tell Jon before he heads off for the Wall.

Besides, in his mind, Ned thinks of only two women - Cat, and Lyanna.

[sj4iy]

Every time i try to post the quotes from Sj4iy's sig dropbox the text turns huge and bold and overlaps previous quotes and i'm too lazy to write each and every one out but i did try. A lot of them are unrelated and don't really hint towards anything to do with Jon's birth. The ones i will give him credit for are those of Lyanna asking for Ned to promise her something, this could be to keep a child safe but it could also be something entirely different. We know Rhaegar raped her quite a bit so it is definitely possible that she wound up pregnant but at the same time i highly doubt the woman would've wanted to havea child with a man who rapes her constantly, There are dozens upon dozens of methods of keeping from getting pregnant even in ASoIaF.

I find it enjoyable that i've been told in a post that i am apparently ignoring the arguments everyone here is posting yet right here you are ignoring those of others who don't want it to be R+L=J.

Other posters have theories on this. The mother herself is a mystery and the father is open for debate as-well. Unlike the lot of you claim i have never once said the R*L=J theory is by any means not a solid one, if Jon was part Targaryen the reason for concealing him from Cat is plain and obvious, Tullys value family over all and housing a secret Targaryen would have been treason and a risk to the Stark family.

What you do not take into account is that the woman who gave birth to Jon Snow also may not have been Lyanna, it could've been anyone just as Ned could have been the father as easily as Rhaegar. One poster here claims he takes into account all of the possibilities and has been agreed upon by others yet everyone is refusing to consider the dull possibility that Ned could be Jon's father. The mother could very well have been a woman Cat had known for gods sake, Ned was gone during a war and didn't even fully know Cat, falling in love with another woman would have been simple and easy, look at Robb for instance. He barely knew his wife yet he loved her all the same during their short time together.

Please read the above posts as-well, I can't seem to copy + paste any of your quotes and passages from the books that you have in the signature dropbox so i can't bring out spot-on quotes. I did not equate the two possibilites of Jon maybe being half Targaryen and the possibility that he will end up on the throne. You say you consider possibilites yet ignore several and claim me to be ignoring those that you want to happen. No i do not want Jon to be on the throne nor do i want him to be a Targaryen but you just as quite a few others here; do want him to be a Targaryen otherwise you would not be backing the theory so much. I am opinionated and a little bias with my comments that i will admit but i am not stupid and certainly do not ignore any of the notes in your dropbox, in the start of this thread or in the books despite initally forgetting one in my original post. Whether any of you want him on the throne or not is invalid because again it is a possibility.

You claim i am insulting your intelligence, no; you've brought up some valid points and i can agree that they do sound plausible and add to the idea but you've also brought up pointless ones. I am in no way insulting your intelligence; i am insulting the contradictions you've made throughout your posts in these last few pages just as you have with those i've made.

I have not read tWoIaF yet but i do plan on reading it so it is possible there are some additional points in there that could back your argument. As for the alternative i have stated one or two possible alternatives in my earlier post.

You've all here also taken my odd wording and trash-mouth the wrong way, by Circle-jerking and fangirls i simply meant that while you all aren't by any means on the level to be considered fangirls there are other forums that are practically run by them to the point that they're so desperate for Jon + Dany to happen and so desperate for him to be alive that they've even made the pointless prediction that LS gives the last of her life to revivie him. None of you have gone that far and none of you have even mentioned Dany in this debate which i'm thankful for; instead there's another dilemma of mistaking what i'm saying as something else. As for the circle-jerk comment i meant we seem to be circling between the same thing over and over. Fact is that both arguments are plausbible and neither are fact; they're both theories and tWoW / aDoS will confirm one or the other, until then they're both just as likely.

The link can be downloaded as a pdf, from which you should be able to highlight, copy and paste. All of them are direct quotes from the text itself, though. Ask me about any quote and I will tell you how it relates. But until you do, there's no way that you can possibly say that the quotes aren't related to this theory.

There's no point in debating generalities or 'feelings', though. Your claims that Jon's parents could be 'anyone' are unsupported. In fact, there are very few people that it could even possibly be, and all but Rhaegar and Lyanna can be disproved through textual evidence.

If you want to prove that Jon isn't the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then do it- there are 5 books in the series and a World Book. Surely you can find enough evidence in those 6 books combined to prove your point. Otherwise, your position is untenable and has no basis in the first place.

Also, there's no proof that Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

[BearQueen87]

Also, there's no proof that Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

And like Ygrain says, we have MORE evidence for quite the contrary. *ahem* rose petals, anyone?

[UVA]

There are dozens upon dozens of methods of keeping from getting pregnant even in ASoIaF.

What are the "dozens upon dozens" of birth control methods in asoiaf that all women have access to? Cersei and Lysa are exceptions. That most women in-universe have little or no control over their bodies, that they are, in large part, seen as broadmares at all levels is part of Martin's social critique on why this society is so fucked up.

No i do not want Jon to be on the throne nor do i want him to be a Targaryen but you just as quite a few others here; do want him to be a Targaryen otherwise you would not be backing the theory so much.

Ah no. Your "tsk" tsk" responses do little to support whatever case you're making. You seem to imply that my belief (and that of others in this thread) that Jon is R&L's son is distorted by some wish that Jon must be a Targ, otherwise the story is unsatisfying.

Look, Martin's built a very beautiful case-- subtle, as many readers don't see it at first, but also a strong one, such that once you know what to look for, the clues are multiple and persuasively woven. There are endless hints, both through subtle dialogue, basic logic, and carefully woven symbolism that tie together Lyanna, Rhaegar, Jon, supported by the reality of Ned's character and resultant shame. RLJ is an extremely well-crafted development in the plot of ASOIAF; it's a lietmotif, yet still mysterious enough to be interesting. I mean, the why and how of it all IS the mystery that has not be solved.

An argument in literature is as much about themes, symbols and imagery as it is about logical deduction and seeking additional possibilities. The fact that Jon's arc is made more authentic by R+L (symbolically and analytically), that Ned's actions make sense only if Jon is R&L's son, the fact that there is no other character we've been introduced to who could be from this union and add meaning to the story as the product of this union speaks more to the impossibility of alternate theories, imo.

[Amoracchius]

Here is the problem with trying to do the genetics thing: this is fantasy literature in which the author needs to write a believable mystery.

Jon cannot have silver hair or purple eyes cause then THE GIG IS UP. He has to look as Stark as possible for GRRM to build his mystery around who Jon's biological father is. Trying to make this scientific is rather futile because GRRM isn't going by strict genotype science but rather what is the best way to tell his story of "who are Jon Snow's parents" over the course of at least 6 books.

This.

The whole discussion of Stark vs. Targ looks once again makes me think about the legend of Finn McCool and the possibility that Jon's hair might change color at some point. We've already seen both Theon and Lancel's hair turn white after suffering major injuries, and we've seen (f)Aegon darken his hair to hide his Targ features, so I'm very intrigued by the possibility that, following the attack on him in ADWD, that his hair might lose its color and his resemblance to Rhaegar (and Targs in general) might be more apparent and his Targ heritage might become more believable.

[Kingmonkey]

The only offspring that we know of who was the fruit of a union between the Targaryens and the blood of the first men is Brynden Rivers- and he was albino. Unless you can provide actual evidence of a Stark-Targaryen union where the children had predominately Targaryen features, you cannot make this claim as if it were fact.

Actually, there's one more. Bloodraven's half brother, Bittersteel. Aegor Rivers. One from the Blackwoods, one from the Brackens. Both houses are first men remnants.

Guess what? Black hair.

[sj4iy]

What are the "dozens upon dozens" of birth control methods in asoiaf that all women have access to? Cersei and Lysa are exceptions. That most women in-universe have little or no control over their bodies, that they are, in large part, seen as broadmares at all levels is part of Martin's social critique on why this society is so fucked up.

Ah no. Your "tsk" tsk" responses do little to support whatever case you're making. You seem to imply that my belief (and that of others in this thread) that Jon is R&L's son is distorted by some wish that Jon must be a Targ, otherwise the story is unsatisfying.

Look, Martin's built a very beautiful case-- subtle, as many readers don't see it at first, but also a strong one, such that once you know what to look for, the clues are multiple and persuasively woven. There are endless hints, both through subtle dialogue, basic logic, and carefully woven symbolism that tie together Lyanna, Rhaegar, Jon, supported by the reality of Ned's character and resultant shame. RLJ is an extremely well-crafted development in the plot of ASOIAF; it's a lietmotif, yet still mysterious enough to be interesting. I mean, the why and how of it all IS the mystery that has not be solved.

An argument in literature is as much about themes, symbols and imagery as it is about logical deduction and seeking additional possibilities. The fact that Jon's arc is made more authentic by R+L (symbolically and analytically), that Ned's actions make sense only if Jon is R&L's son, the fact that there is no other character we've been introduced to who could be from this union and add meaning to the story as the product of this union speaks more to the impossibility of the alternate theories that Martin could conjure up now, imo.

I personally find it hilarious that this person is saying we are basing our reasoning solely on our want of Jon being a Targaryen, while they are clearly basing their reasoning solely on the fact that they DON'T want Jon to be a Targ.

[sj4iy]

Actually, there's one more. Bloodraven's half brother, Bittersteel. Aegor Rivers. One from the Blackwoods, one from the Brackens. Both houses are first men remnants.

Guess what? Black hair.

Yup, thanks. I mentioned him in my list before, I just forgot that they were brothers.

[UVA]

snip

I don't know if you're including intentional ironies, scenes where Martin is clearly giving an *wink* to careful readers in your list. I've always liked the scene in DWD where Stannis asks Jon who Lyanna Mormont is:

Jon took a knee. The king frowned at him, and rattled the parchment angrily. “Rise. Tell me, who is Lyanna Mormont?”

“One of Lady Maege’s daughters, Sire. The youngest. She was named for my lord father’s sister.” “To curry your lord father’s favor, I don’t doubt. I know how that game is played."

What's ironic is that this is the first instance where Jon says or thinks about a Lyanna; and here he's stressing that Lyanna Mormont was named after his aunt, of course who really is his mother.

Not sure this is included in your compendium, and it's not a clue per se, just a little baby easter egg perhaps.

[sj4iy]

I don't know if you're including intentional ironies, scenes where Martin is clearly giving an *wink* to careful readers in your list. I've always liked the scene in DWD where Stannis asks Jon who Lyanna Mormont is:

Jon took a knee. The king frowned at him, and rattled the parchment angrily. “Rise. Tell me, who is Lyanna Mormont?”

“One of Lady Maege’s daughters, Sire. The youngest. She was named for my lord father’s sister.” “To curry your lord father’s favor, I don’t doubt. I know how that game is played."

What's ironic is that this is the first instance where Jon says or thinks about a Lyanna; and here he's stressing that Lyanna Mormont was named after his aunt, of course who really is his mother.

Not sure this is included in your compendium, and it's not a clue per se, just a little baby easter egg perhaps.

I've not even thought about it that way before :) I won't include it, since there's no direct reference, but it's interesting nonetheless :D

[BearQueen87]

I personally find it hilarious that this person is saying we are basing our reasoning solely on our want of Jon being a Targaryen, while they are clearly basing their reasoning solely on the fact that they DON'T want Jon to be a Targ.

I also find it hilarious since there are many very devout RLJ believers who REALLY don't like the Targaryen's at all.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I personally find it hilarious that this person is saying we are basing our reasoning solely on our want of Jon being a Targaryen, while they are clearly basing their reasoning solely on the fact that they DON'T want Jon to be a Targ.

Actually, I think that is the very justification for the reasoning. Because that person admits that personal preference is a driving force in that person's analysis--it must also be for others--not considering that most people on this particular thread are much more interested in correctly interpreting the clues than pushing theories based on personal preferences. I think that this is a classic case of projection--where a person sees a trait in others that really is only a trait of that person.

[The Twinslayer]

Actually, there's one more. Bloodraven's half brother, Bittersteel. Aegor Rivers. One from the Blackwoods, one from the Brackens. Both houses are first men remnants.

Guess what? Black hair.

Don't forget the 4 children of Viserys I and Alicent Hightower (the Hightowers are a First Men family) -- who all 4 had purple eyes and silver hair.

[sj4iy]

Don't forget the 4 children of Viserys I and Alicent Hightower (the Hightowers are a First Men family) -- who all 4 had purple eyes and silver hair.

We're talking about the Starks- not the Hightowers. You seem to keep missing this very crucial point.

Jon is the only known offspring of Stark and Targaryen. You keep trying to use alternative examples to replace the very simple fact that you have no true precedent when it comes what a child of a Stark-Targaryen union would look like.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Actually, there's one more. Bloodraven's half brother, Bittersteel. Aegor Rivers. One from the Blackwoods, one from the Brackens. Both houses are first men remnants.

Guess what? Black hair.

The World Book gives us:

Egg's wife was a Blackwood. One of Egg's sons (Duncan) has dark hair while the other two (Jaehaerys and Daeron) have the Valyrian look. We don't know what either of his daughters look like.

Of course just what's a First Men house and what's an Andal house seems to be primarily an academic distinction, at least south of the Neck. That said, while the Blackwoods do presumably intermarry a lot with other southern houses, which are pretty much all thousands of years of First Men/Andal intermarrying, since they keep the Old Gods, it would not be unreasonable to assume that they intermarry with the North far more than most of the other southern houses (the Royces seem to be in a similar boat, although they don't seem to keep the Old Gods), so they very well might have "purer" First Men "blood" due to frequent Northern marriages, where there doesn't seem to be anywhere near as much intermarriage with the Andals

[IceFire125]

Another funny quote for your signature...(regretfully I don't have the book at hand to look at the exact quote)

In CoK, Jon is about to behead Ygitte because as Ned always told him "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword"....and Jon starts having doubts....inside his head he self-reproaches "you are your father son....aren't you? aren't you???"

I can totally see GRRM with a smile whiel writting those lines lol...

Yup, especially once a reader have accepted the R+L=J theory, and on top of that, of Jon being legitimate... the clues and hints that GRRM have sprinkled in the 5 novels so far are like little treasures that he will culminate into a giant revelation in the end, and we have the front row seat of seeing them develop.

Consider the event when Gilly had to give up her son for Mance's son, the whole scene of Jon convincing Gilly and making her 'kiss' the flame, submitting her to give up and follow Jon's order... it's one of my favorite scenes in the book.

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.”

...

It’s not him (Mance) we need to talk about. It’s his son. Dalla’s boy.”

“The babe?” Her voice trembled. “He never broke no oath, m’lord. He sleeps and cries and sucks, is all; he’s never done no harm to no one. Don’t let her burn him. Save him, please.”

“Only you can do that, Gilly.” Jon told her how.

Gilly shook her head. “No. Please, no.”

The raven picked up the word. “No,” it screamed.

“Refuse, and the boy will burn. Not on the morrow, nor the day after … but soon, whenever Melisandre needs to wake a dragon or raise a wind or work some other spell requiring king’s blood. Mance will be ash and bone by then, so she will claim his son for the fire, and Stannis will not deny her. If you do not take the boy away, she will burn him.”

“I’ll go,” said Gilly. “I’ll take him, I’ll take the both o’ them, Dalla’s boy and mine.” Tears rolled down her cheeks.

...

Jon closed the fingers of his sword hand. “Take both boys and the queen’s men will ride after you and drag you back. The boy will still burn … and you with him.” If I comfort her, she may think that tears can move me. She has to realize that I will not yield. “You’ll take one boy, and that one Dalla’s.”

“A mother can’t leave her son, or else she’s cursed forever. Not a son. We saved him, Sam and me. Please. Please, m’lord. We saved him from the cold.”

“Men say that freezing to death is almost peaceful. Fire, though … do you see the candle, Gilly?”

She looked at the flame. “Yes.”

“Touch it. Put your hand over the flame.”

Her big brown eyes grew bigger still. She did not move.

“Do it.” Kill the boy. “Now.”

Trembling, the girl reached out her hand, held it well above the flickering candle flame.

“Down. Let it kiss you.”

Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame licked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob.

“Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life [Lyanna], but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”

“They’ll burn my babe, then. The red woman. If she can’t have Dalla’s, she’ll burn mine.”

“Your son has no king’s blood. Melisandre gains nothing by giving him to the fire. Stannis wants the free folk to fight for him, he will not burn an innocent without good cause. [Jon's (Ned's) promises] Your boy will be safe. I will find a wet nurse for him and he’ll be raised here at Castle Black under my protection. He’ll learn to hunt and ride, to fight with sword and axe and bow. I’ll even see that he is taught to read and write.” Sam would like that. “[Jon's future foreshadowed was Ned's broken promises] And when he is old enough, he will learn the truth of who he is. He’ll be free to seek you out if that is what he wants.”

“You will make a crow of him.” She wiped at her tears with the back of a small pale hand. “I won’t. I won’t.”

Kill the boy, thought Jon. “You will. Else I promise you, the day that they burn Dalla’s boy, yours will die as well.”

The girl sat hunched and shrunken, staring at the candle flame, tears glistening in her eyes. Finally Jon said, “You have my leave to go. Do not speak of this...”

From Jon's existence to his actions, they will always be surrounded by the forces of ice and fire, because... "his is the song of ice and fire", the balance...

[UnmaskedLurker]

I really don't understand why we are getting bogged down in this minutia. All that matters is whether Jon's coloring makes it possible that Rhaegar is Jon's father if Lyanna is Jon's mother. Everyone seems to agree it is possible for Jon to have Stark coloring and have Rhaegar as the father. In a fictional story like this one--that is all that matters. Is it possible or impossible. We all agree it is possible--end of discussion. Determining the probability is not relevant because this is a fictional story and not real life. The way this situation has been set up, for purpose of this story, probabilities based on looks are irrelevant--only possibilities (apparently, the coloring of Cersei's children made it impossible, not just improbable, to be Robert's children).

Once the possibilities is acknowledged, whether Rhaegar is the father must be determined by the reader using other clues. The clues that Rhaegar is the father are all over the series. An examination of the likelihood that Jon was have the coloring he has if R&L are the parents is pointless and irrelevant--as long as the series has set up that such coloring is possible.

[sj4iy]

I really don't understand why we are getting bogged down in this minutia. All that matters is whether Jon's coloring makes it possible that Rhaegar is Jon's father if Lyanna is Jon's mother. Everyone seems to agree it is possible for Jon to have Stark coloring and have Rhaegar as the father. In a fictional story like this one--that is all that matters. Is it possible or impossible. We all agree it is possible--end of discussion. Determining the probability is not relevant because this is a fictional story and not real life. The way this situation has been set up, for purpose of this story, probabilities based on looks are irrelevant--only possibilities (apparently, the coloring of Cersei's children made it impossible, not just improbable, to be Robert's children).

Once the possibilities is acknowledged, whether Rhaegar is the father must be determined by the reader using other clues. The clues that Rhaegar is the father are all over the series. An examination of the likelihood that Jon was have the coloring he has if R&L are the parents is pointless and irrelevant--as long as the series has set up that such coloring is possible.

Exactly. And it has.

I'm all for moving on XD