sj4iy Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I was being a little facetious. I guess i should have used an emoticon to make that clear. Just like GRRM is not really the trope buster people proclaim him to be, of course he does not just throw in curve balls left and right just for the sake of unpredictability--although of course he does both to some extent. Oh, I was actually agreeing with you. I was simply saying that I don't understand why people think Martin is unpredictable when he MAKES himself predictable on purpose. I don't see why he would spend an enormous amount of time foreshadowing Jon's potential future and outcome only to say "NOPE!" and make all of that foreshadowing worthless when he's never done it for anything else in the series so far. Martin never predicted this amount of widespread scrutiny on his books, so it's not as easy as saying "Martin is some MASTERMIND who will throw us all a curveball!" He's simply writing a good story, whether it has clichés or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Honestly, I don't get this sentiment. It's not really that unpredictable at all. We had foreshadowing for Ned's death, we had TONS of foreshadowing for Robb's death, and Jon's attack was foreshadowed all throughout ADWD. It's not like this stuff just comes out of 'nowhere' like many people proclaim it does. Now, in the show, that's different- since we don't have the prophecies, dreams and visions. But in the books? Not at all. For people to act like Martin is simply going to 'throw away' 5 books worth of foreshadowing just to be 'unpredictable' with Jon's fate is absolutely astounding to me, considering that Martin has never simply thrown foreshadowing out the door before now. GRRM writes very unpredictably, yet after reading & looking back, you are able to see quite a bit of foreshadowing... GRRM writes about the Human Heart, that's where he gets his kicks... Jon becoming some great hero who saves the world against the Others does exactly offer GRRM with an interest situation regarding Jon's heart... It will be significantly more complicated that this... I'm not the first to say this, I believe Paris feels the same way & she is far more in in the know than anyone on this board... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Oh, I was actually agreeing with you. I was simply saying that I don't understand why people think Martin is unpredictable when he MAKES himself predictable on purpose. I don't see why he would spend an enormous amount of time foreshadowing Jon's potential future and outcome only to say "NOPE!" and make all of that foreshadowing worthless when he's never done it for anything else in the series so far. The Foreshadowing that you refer to is NOT worthless... GRRM is very creative, there are ways that he can hold to said foreshadowing & still give us a resolution & conclusion that is completely different than what you imagine based upon said foreshadowing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Oh, I was actually agreeing with you. I was simply saying that I don't understand why people think Martin is unpredictable when he MAKES himself predictable on purpose. I don't see why he would spend an enormous amount of time foreshadowing Jon's potential future and outcome only to say "NOPE!" and make all of that foreshadowing worthless when he's never done it for anything else in the series so far. To be completely honest, I tend to think that GRRM wants it both ways. He includes a lot of foreshadowing, but he really expects that most people won't really be able to decipher the foreshadowing and will be surprised (the Internet has gone a long way to spoiling his fun in that regard--at least for some of the mysteries). He might be correct in that regard, however, to a large extent. So perhaps the readers are divided into two categories--the ones who analyze the foreshadowing closely (who are not going to be that surprised) and the rest of the readers (who generally will be surprise and at best only recognize the foreshadowing after the fact). Of course, these boards have proven that even incredibly clear foreshadowing (like R+L=J) can be ignored or misinterpreted or simply denied by many who seem to be attempting to genuinely analyze the foreshadowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 To be completely honest, I tend to think that GRRM wants it both ways. He includes a lot of foreshadowing, but he really expects that most people won't really be able to decipher the foreshadowing and will be surprised (the Internet has gone a long way to spoiling his fun in that regard--at least for some of the mysteries). He might be correct in that regard, however, to a large extent. So perhaps the readers are divided into two categories--the ones who analyze the foreshadowing closely (who are not going to be that surprised) and the rest of the readers (who generally will be surprise and at best only recognize the foreshadowing after the fact). Of course, these boards have proven that even incredibly clear foreshadowing (like R+L=J) can be ignored or misinterpreted or simply denied by many who seem to be attempting to genuinely analyze the foreshadowing. If not for the internet and the popularity of his series, he probably WOULD have had it both ways. But he's admitted there's nothing he can do it people have put together the clues already except to keep with his original plan despite what people know. I know there are still going to be plenty of surprises left in store...I just don't think this is one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 GRRM writes very unpredictably, yet after reading & looking back, you are able to see quite a bit of foreshadowing... No, he doesn't. People who are paying attention will pick up on the foreshadowing before a 'surprising' event happens. I wasn't at all surprised by the Red Wedding- it was practically telegraphed for two books. This has been telegraphed for FIVE books for anyone paying attention. GRRM writes about the Human Heart, that's where he gets his kicks... Jon becoming some great hero who saves the world against the Others does exactly offer GRRM with an interest situation regarding Jon's heart... It will be significantly more complicated that this... I'm not the first to say this, I believe Paris feels the same way & she is far more in in the know than anyone on this board... The struggles of the human heart don't require that everything be unpredictable. In fact, it doesn't require unpredictability at all. You don't think Jon would struggle with finding out not only that Ned wasn't his father, but that his parents' actions helped cause a war that caused the death of many of his family members? This isn't a 'OH happy day I'm a prince!" revelation. Nor would any revelation concerning Jon as some prophesied figure, as the sheer weight of the responsibility would be soul crushing. I don't know what Paris' position is or even why she's relevant to this conversation. Nor would I trust anything she has to say on the subject in public. The last thing she's going to do is to give away something big in Martin's story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
born amidst snow and corn Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 When jon and Aemon had the conversation about love and duty in a game of thrones jon started questioning ned's honour and he asked himself something like "where was ned's duty to my mother?".i can't find the full quote though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 With hindsight, foreshadowing is always more obvious. And just like prophecy - it always comes true, otherwise it was never really prophetic to begin with.I wonder, when all is said and done, what we'll discover was actually being foreshadowed about Jon's role in this story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted November 25, 2014 Author Share Posted November 25, 2014 When jon and Aemon had the conversation about love and duty in a game of thrones jon started questioning ned's honour and he asked himself something like "where was ned's duty to my mother?".i can't find the full quote though. "Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night's Watch take no wives and father no children?" [...] "So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty." That did not sound right to Jon, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night's Watch; it was not his place to contradict him. The old man seemed to sense his doubts. "Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?" Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said . . . ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what." [...] Some of the ravens were still eating, long stringy bits of meat dangling from their beaks. The rest seemed to be watching him. Jon could feel the weight of all those tiny black eyes. "And this is my day . . . is that what you're saying?" AGoT 60 Jon VIII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 GRRM writes very unpredictably, yet after reading & looking back, you are able to see quite a bit of foreshadowing... GRRM writes about the Human Heart, that's where he gets his kicks... Jon becoming some great hero who saves the world against the Others does exactly offer GRRM with an interest situation regarding Jon's heart... It will be significantly more complicated that this... I'm not the first to say this, I believe Paris feels the same way & she is far more in in the know than anyone on this board... Except that Jon becoming A hero (one among many) whose heroism is based on hard lines and making really hard choices that maybe result in the death of those he loves, but in the name of duty and keeping the realm safe, THAT's conflict of the heart right there. With hindsight, foreshadowing is always more obvious. And just like prophecy - it always comes true, otherwise it was never really prophetic to begin with.I wonder, when all is said and done, what we'll discover was actually being foreshadowed about Jon's role in this story? Yeah good question. We'll find out in about 20 years. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted November 25, 2014 Author Share Posted November 25, 2014 Yeah good question. We'll find out in about 20 years. ;) Good spirit! Keep it up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Except that Jon becoming A hero (one among many) whose heroism is based on hard lines and making really hard choices that maybe result in the death of those he loves, but in the name of duty and keeping the realm safe, THAT's conflict of the heart right there. Yeah good question. We'll find out in about 20 years. ;) I don't know how y'all've (double contraction, deal with it) done it all these years. I've only been waiting 6 months and it's already driving me crazy. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm almost 40 by the time these are finally published (23 now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Yeah good question. We'll find out in about 20 years. ;) <2 years. The show will save our sanity XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
born amidst snow and corn Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 <2 years. The show will save our sanity XD I'd rather wait 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 <2 years. The show will save our sanity XD Well, I think season 7 is more like 2-1/2 years away--but basically, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Well, I think season 7 is more like 2-1/2 years away--but basically, I agree. I meant that I think we will know in season 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I'd rather wait 20 years. Enjoy. I have better things to do with the latter half of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I meant that I think we will know in season 6. Enjoy. I have better things to do with the latter half of my life. LOL! I've never been thrilled about learning things on the show before the books but then we got those spoiler pictures of Dany and Jorah and I thought I might burst from the sheer happiness of that. So now...bring it on GOT! Gimme me whatever is coming. It's not like I'm not going to read the books (many times) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 LOL! I've never been thrilled about learning things on the show before the books but then we got those spoiler pictures of Dany and Jorah and I thought I might burst from the sheer happiness of that. So now...bring it on GOT! Gimme me whatever is coming. It's not like I'm not going to read the books (many times) I get bored and move on from my hobbies eventually. I like new and exciting things, and when they start to stagnate, I lose interest and drop them. I know some people here could wait the rest of their lives for Martin's ending- but not me. I want some closure so I can fully invest myself in something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I'd rather wait 20 years.Its already been close to twenty years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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