R+L=J v.114

[Alia of the knife]

I get bored and move on from my hobbies eventually. I like new and exciting things, and when they start to stagnate, I lose interest and drop them. I know some people here could wait the rest of their lives for Martin's ending- but not me. I want some closure so I can fully invest myself in something new.

Gotta agree.

[addicted to snow]

No, he doesn't. People who are paying attention will pick up on the foreshadowing before a 'surprising' event happens.

Very rarely will those who are paying attention 'pick up on' events before they happen... The red Wedding & R+L=J are two of those rare events.

You don't think Jon would struggle with finding out not only that Ned wasn't his father, but that his parents' actions helped cause a war that caused the death of many of his family members? This isn't a 'OH happy day I'm a prince!" revelation. Nor would any revelation concerning Jon as some prophesied figure, as the sheer weight of the responsibility would be soul crushing.

You've got to be joking... there is death, famine, winter, war, The Others, etc, etc going on in Martin's world, but you think that GRRM's writing about the condition of the human heart is going to focus on Jon whining about who his parents really were... Give me a break...

Seriously, that is where you think GRRM is going with this series?

[addicted to snow]

With hindsight, foreshadowing is always more obvious. And just like prophecy - it always comes true, otherwise it was never really prophetic to begin with.

I wonder, when all is said and done, what we'll discover was actually being foreshadowed about Jon's role in this story?

You can rest assured that it will be vastly different from the way the clues seem to point at this this time...

[Kingmonkey]

You can rest assured that it will be vastly different from the way the clues seem to point at this this time...

Maybe this isn't the place for it, but you're convinced Jon Snow is the next Night's King, right?

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

Doesn't that kind of suggest that if we get a new Night's King, it's going to be Bran?

[BearQueen87]

You've got to be joking... there is death, famine, winter, war, The Others, etc, etc going on in Martin's world, but you think that GRRM's writing about the condition of the human heart is going to focus on Jon whining about who his parents really were... Give me a break...

Seriously, that is where you think GRRM is going with this series?

I don't think that is what sj4iy is saying at all. But Jon learning about his parents and then struggling internally with that IS going to be part of the story. GRRM isn't going to sweep away all that emotional and internal turmoil for one of his main characters.

You can rest assured that it will be vastly different from the way the clues seem to point at this this time...

Actually the only thing we can be sure of is that we don't have Winds of Winter so being absolutely convinced about our personal pet theories amounts to nothing. Unless you are GRRM you don't know anything anymore than we do.

[Greymoon]

I don't think that is what sj4iy is saying at all. But Jon learning about his parents and then struggling internally with that IS going to be part of the story. GRRM isn't going to sweep away all that emotional and internal turmoil for one of his main characters.

I don't see how or why Jon should be emotionally distressed at learning the truth of R+L; when he's had to deal with the loss/supposed deaths of Ned, Robb, Arya, Bran, Rickon, Ygritte and Sansa; or when he's had to chose between duty, love and glory already.... imo, Jon will also be hardened by the betrayal of the Night's Watch men, and become a ruthless leader -- one who will forsake his innocence and honor, for vengeance, for restoring what once was -- or preserving what remains.

Jon has never even met Lyanna Stark, and he's never known Rhaegar either. The lies and Ned's secrecy will certainly come as a shock to him and, were he still the 14 year old boy we met at the beginning of aGoT, then yes, R+L would prove terribly distressing. But to the man Jon is becoming, R+L would only constitute a small ripple in a storm. IMO, the truth of Jon's birth will have greater political importance than emotional; and it might matter more to other people, than to Jon himself.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I don't see how or why Jon should be emotionally distressed at learning the truth of R+L; when he's had to deal with the loss/supposed deaths of Ned, Robb, Arya, Bran, Rickon, Ygritte and Sansa; or when he's had to chose between duty, love and glory already.... imo, Jon will also be hardened by the betrayal of the Night's Watch men, and become a ruthless leader -- one who will forsake his innocence and honor, for vengeance, for restoring what once was -- or preserving what remains.

Jon has never even met Lyanna Stark, and he's never known Rhaegar either. The lies and Ned's secrecy will certainly come as a shock to him and, were he still the 14 year old boy we met at the beginning of aGoT, then yes, R+L would prove terribly distressing. But to the man Jon is becoming, R+L would only constitute a small ripple in a storm. IMO, the truth of Jon's birth will have greater political importance than emotional; and it might matter more to other people, than to Jon himself.

I don't know. From a literary point of view, I think GRRM would find it more interesting to have Jon experience a considerable level of turmoil over the revelation rather than just let him accept the information with equanimity. We are not trying to predict the reaction of a real person, of course, but rather what reaction would be both consistent with the character developed by the author and which the author would find most gratifying for purposes of driving the narrative forward. It seems to me that having a character find out that his entire life has been a lie would be a great excuse for some acting out. I cannot see GRRM missing that opportunity.

[Mithras]

I don't see how or why Jon should be emotionally distressed at learning the truth of R+L;

Jon is still haunted by his bastardy. Identity problems are not alien to his story. A dramatic change like the revelation of R+L=J has to take its toll.

[Mithras]

Rhaegar – Fireball parallels

Rhaegar:

1. was killed at the crossing of Trident;

2. was silver haired but his son (Jon) has the dark brown hair of his mother;

3. the parentage of his son will be disputed;

4. his son will try to claim his heritage by riding a dragon;

5. was killed in the rebellion of which he was partially responsible;

6. knighted the person (Gregor) who would later kill his son and wife;

7. was valiant and noble per Jorah;

8. was never remembered as furious/wroth; instead, he was melancholic;

Fireball:

1. was killed at the crossing of Mander;

2. was red haired but his son (Glendon) had the dark brown hair of his mother;

3. the parentage of his son was disputed;

4. his son tried to prove his heritage by winning the tourney and claiming the dragon egg;

5. was killed in the rebellion of which he was partially responsible;

6. trained the person (Bloodraven) at arms who would later kill him;

7. was chivalrous per Dunk and a hero per Egg;

8. had a fiery temper (inverse parallel);

The Trial

Riderless, the big black stallion was slowing to a trot. Dunk jumped out and grabbed him by the reigns. At the far end of the lists, Ser Glendon Ball wheeled his mare and raised his splintered lance. Men rushed onto the field where the Fiddler lay unmoving, facedown in a puddle. When they helped him to his feet, he was mud from head to heel.

“The Brown Dragon!” someone shouted. Laughter ripped through the yard as the dawn washed over Whitewalls.

Considering Rhaegar – Fireball parallels, Glendon represents Jon in the above joust. Then, who is Daemon II aka John the Fiddler?

First clue is that Daemon II used the alias John, not Jon. That means that he is a false pretender to a position that belongs to Jon. He is not Jon.

Given that Daemon II was a Blackfyre who first appeared under a different identity, the first candidate for the “false-Jon” is of course fAegon. fAegon claims both the IT and the position of Rhaegar’s son, both of which actually belong to Jon. Since Daemon II was trampled by the person who represents Jon, that means Jon will be recognized as Rhaegar’s son and get the crown.

Another likely interpretation is that Daemon II represents Dany who will also ride a big black stallion (i.e. Drogon aka the Stallion who mounts the world). Like fAegon, Dany will be another pretender to the crown that actually belongs to Jon.

Dany is also a false-PtwP. Daemon II thought that his egg would literally hatch and he would be the king. But we know that it was Egg who hatched metaphorically at Whitewalls and Daemon II got his vision wrong. Maester Aemon erred. The dragons prove nothing. It will be seen that the literal hatching of Dany’s dragons will have nothing to do with the tPtwP/AAR prophecies. Jon will be the dragon/PtWP who will be hatched/waken by AAR at the Wall.

We see that Daemon II lost the trial and fell from his black stallion, which foreshadows Dany losing Drogon. Note that the dawn comes after the false pretender was unhorsed from the black stallion, which means the Dawn will come soon after Jon takes Drogon from Dany.

Ser Glendon was terribly tortured and beaten up but he managed to unhorse the pretender. He was recognized and cleared from the charges. Similarly, Jon will emerge victorious from the new Battle for Dawn though he will be terribly worn out. Because of his victory, Jon’s claim will be recognized.

Lightbringer

He had to get down on his knees to gather up the books he’d dropped. I should not have brought so many, he told himself as he brushed the dirt off Colloquo Votar’s Jade Compendium, a thick volume of tales and legends from the east that Maester Aemon had commanded him to find. The book appeared undamaged. Maester Thomax’s Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons had not been so fortunate. It had come open as it fell, and a few pages had gotten muddy, including one with a rather nice picture of Balerion the Black Dread done in colored inks.

Jade Compendium is one of our primary sources for Lightbringer which described its effects similar to death by dragonfire. Sam held Jade Compendium along with the book containing the picture of Balerion the Black Dread. Drogon was called Balerion come again.

I think this is strong evidence that Jon and Drogon are the two halves of Lightbringer and Sam is AAR (to be more precise, I think Sam is one of the AARs with others being Bran and Davos) because according to the prophecy, what AAR is supposed to do is to clasp the Lightbringer, which is basically what Sam did with those books.

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

Two halves of the Lightbringer fell to the ground. Jade Compendium (represents Jon) was undamaged whereas the picture of the black dragon (represents Drogon) got muddy. Returning to the Trial, another black dragon (Daemon II) fell from the big black stallion and fell into the mud. Note that he was lying face down in a puddle. This position is similar to how Jon fell to the ground after stabbing and how Drogon was whipped into submission by Dany.

Wait, a puddle? The Others turn into puddles when they are slain.

I think Drogon will die in the final fight against the Others but Jon will survive and win the war.

[BearQueen87]

I don't know. From a literary point of view, I think GRRM would find it more interesting to have Jon experience a considerable level of turmoil over the revelation rather than just let him accept the information with equanimity. We are not trying to predict the reaction of a real person, of course, but rather what reaction would be both consistent with the character developed by the author and which the author would find most gratifying for purposes of driving the narrative forward. It seems to me that having a character find out that his entire life has been a lie would be a great excuse for some acting out. I cannot see GRRM missing that opportunity.

Word.

Jon is still haunted by his bastardy. Identity problems are not alien to his story. A dramatic change like the revelation of R+L=J has to take its toll.

Hell, identity problems are HUGE in ASOIAF. Arya, Theon, Dany, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion....good lord, how about every freaking character. Jon learning he's the son of a Targ AND legit? Yeah that's take a toll on him.

[sj4iy]

Very rarely will those who are paying attention 'pick up on' events before they happen... The red Wedding & R+L=J are two of those rare events.

Bullshit. Martin has admitted that people have already 'pieced together' the clues to the mystery he has been setting up since Book 1 and doesn't plan on revealing until Book 6. Those are HIS words, not mine. And they did that as early as 1998...what do you think happened in the next 16 years with an insane increase in popularity, readership and internet discussion?

Not everything is 'unpredictable', and Martin has laid out foreshadowing from the very beginning. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to pick up on all of the possible foreshadowing and put it together.

You've got to be joking... there is death, famine, winter, war, The Others, etc, etc going on in Martin's world, but you think that GRRM's writing about the condition of the human heart is going to focus on Jon whining about who his parents really were... Give me a break...

Because that's EXACTLY what I said.

Or maybe it would cause a massive identity crisis in a man who has struggled with his identity all of his life to find out that the only father he's ever known wasn't his father at all.

Seriously, that is where you think GRRM is going with this series?

Whatever the hell he wants to do. It's his story, not yours or mine or anyone else's. If he wants to write a fairytale ending, he sure as hell can write one. If he wants to write an ending whether everyone arbitrarily becomes part of a massive circus act, then he can do that, too. I can only go by context clues, but in the end, I don't know how he's going to end it anymore than your average reader. You act as if you KNOW what he's going to do, and you don't. So get off it, already.

[Greymoon]

Jon is still haunted by his bastardy. Identity problems are not alien to his story. A dramatic change like the revelation of R+L=J has to take its toll.

I was under the impression that Jon was getting over that by aDwD. He seems to have embraced his status even, when he calls himself a bastard in front of his men and when he acknowledged Winterfell isn't for him and never was. Sure, it will be a shock -- but like I said, the emotional impact can't possibly rival the loss of Ned and Robb and Ygritte; the torture over his vows when Robb went to war, later with Ygritte, later still, when he heard about 'Arya' and when Stannis offered him the means to avenge his family.

Realistically, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for Jon to cry over R+L, when he's still grieving over and dealing with a lot more traumatic events and emotional 'torture' (Duty and the Watch over Robb; over Ygritte; over Arya...).

IMO, when he learns of R+L, Jon will either:

• shrug it off and use the information for strategic purposes;

shrug it off and keep it to himself

not deal with it at all and pretend to know nothing;

or he will pretend to shrug it off, use it for strategic purposes while feeling inner turmoil, though he'd leave that all aside to be able to function -- his strategy, up to now.

The last option, seems the most likely to me. Yet, in context, emotionally speaking and from Jon's perspective, I maintain that the revelation would still only represent a small ripple in an already raging storm. And that would also be the 'beauty' of the narrative.

The political impact of the revelation could, however, have a much greater impact on the story: I wouldn't be surprised at all if the revelation came at the least opportune moment to cripple the war effort... say, just when the northern lords are ready to declare Jon a Stark.

[sj4iy]

I was under the impression that Jon was getting over that by aDwD. He seems to have embraced his status even, when he calls himself a bastard in front of his men and when he acknowledged Winterfell isn't for him and never was. Sure, it will be a shock -- but like I said, the emotional impact can't possibly rival the loss of Ned and Robb and Ygritte; the torture over his vows when Robb went to war, later with Ygritte, later still, when he heard about 'Arya' and when Stannis offered him the means to avenge his family.

Realistically, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for Jon to cry over R+L, when he's still grieving over and dealing with a lot more traumatic events and emotional 'torture' (Duty and the Watch over Robb; over Ygritte; over Arya...).

IMO, when he learns of R+L, Jon will either:

• shrug it off and use the information for strategic purposes;
• shrug it off and keep it to himself
• not deal with it at all and pretend to know nothing;
• or he will pretend to shrug it off, use it for strategic purposes while feeling inner turmoil, though he'd leave that all aside to be able to function -- his strategy, up to now.

The last option, seems the most likely to me. Yet, in context, emotionally speaking and from Jon's perspective, I maintain that the revelation would still only represent a small ripple in an already raging storm. And that would also be the 'beauty' of the narrative.

The political impact of the revelation could, however, have a much greater impact on the story: I wouldn't be surprised at all if the revelation came at the least opportune moment to cripple the war effort... say, just when the northern lords are ready to declare Jon a Stark.

I don't see Jon shrugging it off or even pretending to. He can't afford to...he will need his Targaryen side as well as his Stark side to face what's coming, and he will have to fully accept who he is to do so.

For someone to go from "You're just a Lord's byblow" to "You're a possible prince whose birth caused the death of thousands- including much of your own family" is huge for anyone- not the least of all, Jon. I fully expect Martin to explore his reaction...otherwise, what's the point of even having it there?

[BearQueen87]

If Jon "shrugs" it off, it will only be for a short while and in the mentality of "I can't deal with this right now, i have other things to worry about." But not dealing with it at all.....nope. Don't see that at all. It's very important character development--even if he only comes to the conclusion that it doesn't matter to him at all. He can't just go, "oh. I'm really the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? That's nice. Don't care. Next!"

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Jon seems to have been a bit more comfortable with his position as a bastard, towards the end of Dance. Then, he got stabbed, and I guess that it will be a while before Jon will be over this (mentally),.. Imagine, he's just recovered (almost) from this, and then he learns about his parentage...

Internal conflict doesn't really make fighting against the Others and such easier :)

[BearQueen87]

Jon seems to have been a bit more comfortable with his position as a bastard, towards the end of Dance. Then, he got stabbed, and I guess that it will be a while before Jon will be over this (mentally),.. Imagine, he's just recovered (almost) from this, and then he learns about his parentage...

Internal conflict doesn't really make fighting against the Others and such easier :)

He got more comfortable being a bastard, but he's not just going to be learning who momma and papa are. He's going to be learning that 1) His father was royalty and 2) That he's not a bastard at all! That last one especially will be dealt with.

[Mithras]

Anger and grief will be first two reactions of Jon.

[sj4iy]

Anger and grief will be first two reactions of Jon.

Actually, I would say shock, then anger and grief.

[Amoracchius]

Very rarely will those who are paying attention 'pick up on' events before they happen... The red Wedding & R+L=J are two of those rare events.

You've got to be joking... there is death, famine, winter, war, The Others, etc, etc going on in Martin's world, but you think that GRRM's writing about the condition of the human heart is going to focus on Jon whining about who his parents really were... Give me a break...

Seriously, that is where you think GRRM is going with this series?

Actually, yes, that sounds exactly like the kind of thing that might "set the human heart in conflict with itself," as GRRM likes to say.

[Ser Leftwich]

One amusing in universe development will be the lickspittles saying things like, "he is the very image of Rhaegar." and "he has Rhaegar's eyes!"