Why don't people like AFFC?

[Elessar]

It did give me a good laugh as well. But I disagree with it.

Well done, though.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

In addition to these, we see Euron fecking Greyjoy in the Ironborn chapters.

AND VICTARIOOOOOOON...

(Victarion is cooler, at least to me. While Euron is just some evil mofo, we have Victarion being the kind of man who WANTS to be good, but his background makes him take some very objectionable decisions. I like that. Also,he's also badass)

After chapters and chapters investing yourselves in the Starks the Red Wedding made you cry. Theon's betrayal angered you. Now prepare to feel absolutely numb to The Queenmaker. After spending one whole chapter preparing for Arianne's plan to crown Myrcella. Prepare not to care or be surprised when it fails 5 mins after it starts. Fear the most dangerous man in Dorne, who can't even kill an 11 year old girl.

[...]

I actually liked the book, but it didn't really have a plot, it was just an assortment of chapters, and since many of those characters were new and barely mentioned I didn't end up caring for any of them.

There is a lot of people who liked the Queenmaker. A lot of it is revealed during those chapters.

And what you mentions is the problem with the problem people have with the book: It's like having a tv show end up in a big bang that kills many characters, while next season starts actually setting up new characters and players, and people starts to label it immediately as "lame" or "poor", when there are still more than 20 episodes left.

Saying "I don't care for Ariane/Euron/Victarion" for what they did in Feast (even Dance), is something we can conclude because they are not even yet starting to act. And that's George's fault because he's taking forever to continue their arcs. But the characters are fine.

[Red Tiger]

You know it's funny, I like the Dorne chapters, but Sapna is absolutely correct about the parts I gave zero fucks about. I liked reading Arianne's thoughts and her feelings about (presumably) not being the heir, but the queenmaker plot in itself was laughable and the part about Darkstar still has me in tears.

[Cas Stark]

AND VICTARIOOOOOOON...

(Victarion is cooler, at least to me. While Euron is just some evil mofo, we have Victarion being the kind of man who WANTS to be good, but his background makes him take some very objectionable decisions. I like that. Also,he's also badass)

There is a lot of people who liked the Queenmaker. A lot of it is revealed during those chapters.

And what you mentions is the problem with the problem people have with the book: It's like having a tv show end up in a big bang that kills many characters, while next season starts actually setting up new characters and players, and people starts to label it immediately as "lame" or "poor", when there are still more than 20 episodes left.

Saying "I don't care for Ariane/Euron/Victarion" for what they did in Feast (even Dance), is something we can conclude because they are not even yet starting to act. And that's George's fault because he's taking forever to continue their arcs. But the characters are fine.

I feel very confident in predicting Vic is going to end up like Quentyn, a non starter POV who goes nowhere.

And if Euron is going to be important, when is that going to happen? If he's going to be REALY important, to the end game, it's a bit late to introduce him. It would be like if the penultimate moment in Breaking Bad, turned not on Walter White or Jesse Pinkman, but some other random person who had shown up in one previous episode the year before and had no speaking lines. Then, he pops up in the last scene and everything revolves around him.

I didn't like Arianne's chapters, but given who she is and that Dorne has been foreshadowed since GOT, at least there is reason to believe she and her POV will amount to something.

But, none of that can change the fact that introducing 6 new POVs in one book is poor structure.

[Hangover of the Morning]

You know it's funny, I like the Dorne chapters, but Sapna is absolutely correct about the parts I gave zero fucks about. I liked reading Arianne's thoughts and her feelings about (presumably) not being the heir, but the queenmaker plot in itself was laughable and the part about Darkstar still has me in tears.

My memories of reading AFfC for the first time are still relatively fresh since it hasn't been that long ago. I have never been so baffled as when reading the Queenmaker chapter. Arrianne's plan was so blatantly idiotic and just couldn't believe that she managed to persuade anyone to follow her and that I am actually witnessing firsthand this imbecility. It felt like reading a different book entirely.

The chapter in itself was not interesting or engaging at all. Just an exposition into some ultra minor Dornish characters whose name I forgotten as soon they left the page. Darkstar was actually the only interesting thing in that chapter, but possibly only because he's a Dayne (so we got a few blubs about Arthur) and because he shone by comparison to the rest of the completely bland companions.

I agree that Victarion is like Quentyn just an overblown prologue character, i.e. he will deliver his fleat to Danny and die.

[Cas Stark]

I've been very disappointed that for whatever reason, the author has made the entire Martell family, minus the Red Viper, deeply stupid and useless, which makes reading the POVs much less interesting.

[Hangover of the Morning]

I've been very disappointed that for whatever reason, the author has made the entire Martell family, minus the Red Viper, deeply stupid and useless, which makes reading the POVs much less interesting.

I agree. Done was fantastic until we actually got there. The chapters didn't provide any info about Dorne that we didn't know already.

Quentyn, Arriane and Doran were shown like complete idiots. I love Oberyn but even he got killed by his own stupidity and didn't accomplish what he set himself to do.

[Cas Stark]

I agree. Done was fantastic until we actually got there. The chapters didn't provide any info about Dorne that we didn't know already.

Quentyn, Arriane and Doran were shown like complete idiots. I love Oberyn but even he got killed by his own stupidity and didn't accomplish what he set himself to do.

Hey, at least he killed The Mountain, that's something, more than Doran accomplished, though it looks like the 'also poisoned Tywin' theory is giong to turn out to be wrong, he's still head and shoulders above the rest of them in any results.

It was strange, reading the whole fire and blood I was going to wed you to Viserys...I was like 'what'? Are you kidding me? And you still sat your ass all this time and never sent the kid one dragon or advisor or anything? This is your fucking plan? And yet, I think we/the reader are still supposed to think Doran is a formidable opponent, everyone in the books believes this....But, I'm now with the people of Dorne, they've got it right, he's a passive lightweight who never takes action no matter what injuries he suffers.

[Red Tiger]

My memories of reading AFfC for the first time are still relatively fresh since it hasn't been that long ago. I have never been so baffled as when reading the Queenmaker chapter. Arrianne's plan was so blatantly idiotic and just couldn't believe that she managed to persuade anyone to follow her and that I am actually witnessing firsthand this imbecility. It felt like reading a different book entirely.

The chapter in itself was not interesting or engaging at all. Just an exposition into some ultra minor Dornish characters whose name I forgotten as soon they left the page. Darkstar was actually the only interesting thing in that chapter, but possibly only because he's a Dayne (so we got a few blubs about Arthur) and because he shone by comparison to the rest of the completely bland companions.

I agree that Victarion is like Quentyn just an overblown prologue character, i.e. he will deliver his fleat to Danny and die.

Oh I fully understand where you're coming from. What intrigued me about Dorne was that it was the only place where a woman can just as easily come to power as a man and that idea was what intrigued me the most about Arianne's chapters. I myself like Arianne, but there's no doubt about it, she is dumb, really, really dumb and could have been used better, though I still believe she'll give us some interesting chapters in the future.

Victarion, I just can't relate to this guy and he came off like the absolute dullard GRRM said he was. He has no ambition, no real goals, all he was planning to do was continue Balon's mission of taking the North and even when Asha constantlly gave him a muchneeded reality check, he kept sticking to his original objectives, this made him just as boring as Areo Hotah to me. Both are men who follow their King or Prince's orders without question and the only guy who made that work was the deeply-conflicted Ned.

And Doran, you constantly talk about not putting the kids in danger, yet you send your son to Dorne without ever sending spies to check if everything is going okay, for shame.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Hey, at least he killed The Mountain, that's something, more than Doran accomplished, though it looks like the 'also poisoned Tywin' theory is giong to turn out to be wrong, he's still head and shoulders above the rest of them in any results.

It was strange, reading the whole fire and blood I was going to wed you to Viserys...I was like 'what'? Are you kidding me? And you still sat your ass all this time and never sent the kid one dragon or advisor or anything? This is your fucking plan? And yet, I think we/the reader are still supposed to think Doran is a formidable opponent, everyone in the books believes this....But, I'm now with the people of Dorne, they've got it right, he's a passive lightweight who never takes action no matter what injuries he suffers.

I know, Doran's plan is to marry one of his kid to a Targaryen? That's it.

He wanted to marry Arianne to Viserys but did absolutely nothing to befriend the boy or even ensure that he survives until adulthood.

When that failed, he sent his son Quentyn on an extremely dangerous and almost certainly doomed mission across the world to woe Viserys' sister. This time he at least offered Danny something (army) but it was far less than she'd be giving in return (army, dragons, birthright to the throne).

Luckily for Doran, once that failed, a secret Targaryen appeared out of nowhere so he sent his daughter to offer herself to him. Once that fails, is he going to try to marry Trystane to Jon? There's no shortage of secret Targaryens but Doran might run out of his progeny sometime soon. Is he going to start pimping out the Sand Snakes?

[Cas Stark]

I know, Doran's plan is to marry one of his kid to a Targaryen? That's it.

He wanted to marry Arianne to Viserys but did absolutely nothing to befriend the boy or even ensure that he survives until adulthood.

When that failed, he sent his son Quentyn on an extremely dangerous and almost certainly doomed mission across the world to woe Viserys' sister. This time he at least offered Danny something (army) but it was far less than she'd be giving in return (army, dragons, birthright to the throne).

Luckily for Doran, once that failed, a secret Targaryen appeared out of nowhere so he sent his daughter to offer herself to him. Once that fails, is he going to try to marry Trystane to Jon? There's no shortage of secret Targaryens but Doran might run out of his progeny sometime soon. Is he going to start pimping out the Sand Snakes?

LOL. I only want someone in Dorne who doesn't seem stupid as fuck. The Sand Snakes, too, there are way too many of them, and they're a bit cartoonishly over the top, but there might be some hope w/them maybe also Ellaria Sand.

[Syrio Fo-real]

Too long of a wait in between books and some of the fan favorites were no shows.

It seemed to drag out with Brienne and Cersei chapters imo even though they had some great material in there as well.

Sneaky snakes of dorne didnt do much for me until its revealed Doran isnt just a pushover with no cajones but he is working a master plan.

I prefer the Iron Island pirates because Victarion is a bad ass and Euron is shrouded in secrets. Aeron....until he summons a kraken i couldnt care less

[Good Guy Garlan]

I really think we should stop judging (or rather, avoiding to judge) things based on potentially future events, like:

"You can't hate on Brienne's arc, because that random begging brother she met could turn out to be Howland Reed". Yeah, so? Does that justify building an entire arc around a cameo with the Mad Mouse, or the High Septon or whatever? If the supposed sacrifice of Nimble Dick under the weirwood turns out to be relevant, will that automatically make the Whispers detour look like great literature? Well, no.

Like, reading aCoK I've never seen asking what's the point of Stannis, Davos, or Melisandre. Why? Because those characters and their arcs are immediately compelling in a way Dorne and the Greyjoy nuncles in aFfC aren't. On the flip side, we now know Pyat Pree and Xaro play important roles in aDwD, but does that make Qarth look better?

I'm a firm believer that every book should be judged according to its own merits, not based on potentially future developments. A good writer sets things up without making it feel like a slog, and a good writer just doesn't require 2 entire books to reign in the story.

Even if WoW ends up being mind-blowingly awesome (and I really hope it is), that's not going to make aFfC and aDwD look better

[Maid So Fair]

I might be the only person who didn't find Arianne's plot completely idiotic (if unlikely to succeed) and who didn't mind Darkstar all that much, but that made it all the more annoying, because it went exactly nowhere. It's a new (presumably important) character supported by a bunch of just as new but even more irrelevant characters trying to execute this secret plot, and when it's about to pay off it just dissipates into nothing. Had Myrcella died or actually been crowned, it might have worked, but as of now it's the same result as if she tragically slipped on an orange peel in the Water Gardens.

[Red Tiger]

I really think we should stop judging (or rather, avoiding to judge) things based on potentially future events, like:

"You can't hate on Brienne's arc, because that random begging brother she met could turn out to be Howland Reed". Yeah, so? Does that justify building an entire arc around a cameo with the Mad Mouse, or the High Septon or whatever? If the supposed sacrifice of Nimble Dick under the weirwood turns out to be relevant, will that automatically make the Whispers detour look like great literature? Well, no.

Like, reading aCoK I've never seen asking what's the point of Stannis, Davos, or Melisandre. Why? Because those characters and their arcs are immediately compelling in a way Dorne and the Greyjoy nuncles in aFfC aren't. On the flip side, we now know Pyat Pree and Xaro play important roles in aDwD, but does that make Qarth look better?

I'm a firm believer that every book should be judged according to its own merits, not based on potentially future developments. A good writer sets things up without making it feel like a slog, and a good writer just doesn't require 2 entire books to reign in the story.

Even if WoW ends up being mind-blowingly awesome (and I really hope it is), that's not going to make aFfC and aDwD look better

Just went from liking 22 chapters to 19.

[Cas Stark]

I might be the only person who didn't find Arianne's plot completely idiotic (if unlikely to succeed) and who didn't mind Darkstar all that much, but that made it all the more annoying, because it went exactly nowhere. It's a new (presumably important) character supported by a bunch of just as new but even more irrelevant characters trying to execute this secret plot, and when it's about to pay off it just dissipates into nothing. Had Myrcella died or actually been crowned, it might have worked, but as of now it's the same result as if she tragically slipped on an orange peel in the Water Gardens.

You might have something there, part of reason for disliking it is the sheer ineptitude all around, if she had been killed it would have still reflected badly on Arianne as a future power player but it at least would have been very meaningful in the scheme of things. Myrcella lost an ear, not so much.

After so much hinting about the Dayne family..Darkstar was kind of a let down I thought.

[Chebyshov]

My reaction to pretty much everything being said about Arianne: http://i.imgur.com/fzidnOu.gif?1

I was about to frantically start linking all essays and supplements from the reread, but it's okay...my blood pressure is normalizing. For anyone who's interested there's resources linked in the OP. I may open up a thread defending her Queenmaker plot later, but this is not the place for it.

All I'll say about it is that the 4 Dornish chapters in AFFC, which includes my favorite chapter in the series, have just amazing levels of nuance that strongly benefit from a reread. And in that we have a very rich character arc (two, actually) as well as an amazing set-up for what Dorne's role will be moving forward.

[BearQueen87]

I really enjoyed the Queenmaker plot. And Arianne's final chapter in Feast is spectacular. The conversation with Doran...damn

[Good Guy Garlan]

You might have something there, part of reason for disliking it is the sheer ineptitude all around, if she had been killed it would have still reflected badly on Arianne as a future power player but it at least would have been very meaningful in the scheme of things. Myrcella lost an ear, not so much.

After so much hinting about the Dayne family..Darkstar was kind of a let down I thought.

I read that the original draft even had Arys surviving and no attack on Myrcella. Talk about no consequences...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

My memories of reading AFfC for the first time are still relatively fresh since it hasn't been that long ago. I have never been so baffled as when reading the Queenmaker chapter. Arrianne's plan was so blatantly idiotic and just couldn't believe that she managed to persuade anyone to follow her and that I am actually witnessing firsthand this imbecility. It felt like reading a different book entirely.

More idiotic than Ned going to Cersei? Than Cersei and Jaime having sex in Winterfell? More than the Great Ranging? More than Viserys threatening Dany in front of an horde of oversensitive Dothrakis? More than Oberyin going all "I'm killing you for killing my sis---ooops!"?

Also, Arianne's plan to crown Myrcella was not even her plan. It was Oberyn. He suggested it at least twice in Storm, and Tyrion even considered for a fragment of time.

And, why a character has to be successful in order to be a good character? Stannis losing Blackwater makes him lame? The NW being butchered makes them idiotic? I see this a lot about Arianne, Brienne and even Dany and Quentyn in Dance. Because they aren't achieving the objective, then "oh, I can't believe their arcs are so lame and so filler!". I suppose the whole arc of the Red Wedding is also full with blatant idiocy because Robb achieved to make such terrible decisions that offended his own bannermen and got him killed. I mean, just because Arianne's party wasn't butchered and no one beheaded her to sew her head into a loving pet are her chapters boring?

My reaction to pretty much everything being said about Arianne: http://i.imgur.com/fzidnOu.gif?1

/hugs