Why don't people like AFFC?

[kimim]

Dany, Jon, Tyrion are the main characters. Their stories all end in cliffhangers in SoS, and they're missing in Feast. Ditto for Bran and Theon. That should be enough to explain the problem. These characters are replaced by a bunch of new characters that add nothing. World building in Dorne adds little to what we already learned about the region via Oberyn. Ditto for the Greyjoys. We learned about them through Theon. Feast adds nothing.

Then there are the characters we do know about who suffer in Feast:

Brienne's wandering does worse than add nothing to her character; it detracts from it. She goes NOWHERE. Literally. She achieves nothing. Literally.

Cersei plays a big part, but Feast does the opposite of character building with her. Before Feast, she was a cruel, but somewhat human character. Feast reduces her to a cartoon villain.

Sam does nothing but lose his virginity and arrive at Oldtown.

Some characters (imo) do well in Feast:

Sansa and Petyr develop in a way that meant something to me. LF's machinations reminded me of the fun, nasty moments in the earlier novels, and it's important that we see Sansa be educated at LF's "school."

Arya's education as a FM is needed, in the same way that Sansa's is needed.

Jaime enters full on-reform mode.

That's about it, though. It's a novel that has little reason for existence, imo.

EDIT: Add Stannis, Davos, Mel to the list of people who disappear in Feast.

[l2 0 5 5]

Probably because of the characters that were cut out, and the ones that were introduced weren't enough to fill the void for certain people.

Personally, I like Feast. A good intro to the Iron Islands, Dorne, and a perspective of Cersei slowly becoming more paranoid and losing power.

[Equilibrium]

Nothing really huge happens, ASOS on the other hand makes your head explode every second page

[First of the First Men]

How is that a sign of insanity?

Not as such, you're right, but that's my take on it. When I say insanity, what I mean is psychopathy and paranoia, at least that's what's on display towards the end of AFFC. I'd say the paranoia develops after Joffrey's death as she grapples with Maggy's prophecy, but the psychopathy is already here (and always was).

"...And he dares to accuse me of incest, adultery, and treason!"

Only because you're guilty. It was astonishing to see how angry Cersei could wax over accusations she knew perfectly well to be true. If we lose the war, she ought to take up mummery, she has a gift for it.

ACOK Tyrion III

Her getting so worked up about it is completely unnecessary. She does not have to justify herself in that situation. None of the professional cynics on the SC have anything to gain from openly entertaining the notion that Stannis might actually be on to something. I think Tyrion has it wrong here. She does not act, she actually is furious.

That begs the question at what. The accusations certainly pose a political threat, but I don't think it's that. All the other players keep cool when facing such things (Littlefinger and the Lords Declarant come to mind). They know it's part of the Game of Thrones, they go about it with a professional attitude. It's just nothing personal. Even Cersei herself stays calm and focused when Ned confronts her with the very same thing in AGOT and explains the GoT to him. She reacts with the same honesty as Jaime in the Riverrun dungeon when questioned by Cat at the end of ACOK. (I actually admired both of them for that. In Cersei's case that's the only thing I ever admired her for.)

I think the real reason she is furious is that she generally feels she is above the rules and entitled to anything she desires. And Stannis begs to differ. Logic, i. e. the fact that the accusations are true does not come into it. One of the defining traits of psychopathy (disclaimer: I am not a trained psychologist or psychiatrist) is a lack of empathy, which could be defined as taking somebody else's perspective or simply comparing yourself to somebody else and judging on that basis. And she simply refuses or is completely unable to do that. It simply does not occur to her to practice introspection, be objective and ask herself if she is guilty of anything. The emphasis on "me" is revealing in this respect too. It would make sense if she were the Honorary Chairperson of the Greater King's Landing Anti-Fornication League, but she is not [citation needed]. She just views herself as above everyone else.

Later in AFFC she talks herself into a frenzy openly fantasizing about killing Sansa, drawing only awkward silence from her hand-picked Small Council. There was something similar going on here early in ACOK.

Ned probably did not pose a threat in her mind because it was not in the open and did not challenge her self-perception. According to Wikipedia, other traits of psychopathy are "bold, disinhibited behavior, low anxiety and feckless disregard". Or maybe she just felt she needed to keep herself on her toes and could not indulge in raging.

Or George just didn't think things through completely :D

[Elessar]

I know why people dislike it, but I disagree with them completely. It is the most well written book in the series. Thematically beautiful, containing some of the most wonderful pieces (Septon Meribald's "broken man" speech should be memorized by actors the world over for use in monologues).

But it doesn't have most people's favorite characters.. boo-fucking-hoo.

[l2 0 5 5]

Cersei Lannister - 10 chapters she is hilarious, best POV ever 10/10

Brienne of Tarth - 8 chapters boring and pointless storyline, one chapter was great 1/8

Jaime Lannister - 7 chapters great redemption arc 7/7

Samwell Tarly - 5 chapters Aemon's death was touching, citadel's stuff was super intriguing, the rest of journey was boring 2/5

Arya Stark - 3 chapters i'm a big fan of Braavos, of faceless men and of Arya 3/3

Sansa Stark - 3 chapters my favorite part of the book 3/3

Aeron Greyjoy - 2 chapters just one word: KINGSMOOT 1/2

Victarion Greyjoy - 2 chapters i don't even remember what happened in those chapters 0/2

Arianne Martell - 2 chapters 0/2

Asha Greyjoy - 1 chapter 1/1

Areo Hotah - 1 chapter 0/1

Arys Oakheart - 1 chapter 0/1

Pate - 1 chapter (Prologue) i don't count it

45 less the prologue 44

28/44 I quite liked AFFC, but 16 chapters of outrageously boring stuff is just too much.

I changed my mind, Victorian's chapter after kingsmoot was interesting, 29/44

I think you make a fair point. For me, I like Arianne's chapters, and don't care for Arya's.

I agree with your thesis, though. There are more boring chapters in this book than the rest. I don't particularly care for Arya, Sam, and Brienne in AFFC. And, surprisingly, Brienne has the second most POVs in the book!

Add that with no Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Davos, and even Bran, and you have people not caring for this as much as the rest of the series.

I still enjoy Feast, because I can appreciate the new characters (Martells, Greyjoys, etc) and absolutely love Cersei and Jaime's chapters in this book. They practically make up for the boring ones discussed earlier.

[sifth]

I know why people dislike it, but I disagree with them completely. It is the most well written book in the series. Thematically beautiful, containing some of the most wonderful pieces (Septon Meribald's "broken man" speech should be memorized by actors the world over for use in monologues).

But it doesn't have most people's favorite characters.. boo-fucking-hoo.

So George's filler characters are better than the main characters in your book. We'll there's always a few people with that state of mind I assume.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So George's filler characters are better than the main characters in your book. We'll there's always a few people with that state of mind I assume.

I think he meant that just because those characters aren't Jon, Dany or Tyrion, doesn't mean they aren't good.

Also, they have JUST being introduced.

Victarion is kicking some Yunkai's asses now

According to Martin, Aeron is about to go and do some nasty stuff.

Arianne is in the middle of Aegon's invasion.

Will it kill us to have a little bit of patience to find out what they are going to do? It's not their fault that GRRM takes forever to write them.

[Annara Snow]

I think it was really because people waited five years and then realized they only had the stories of half the characters they knew, and had to wait six more years for them, and there were suddenly some new POVs (right at the beginning of the book!), which must have made it even worse.

I can understand that. If TWOW came out and the note in it had GRRM explain: "Sorry, but Sansa, Jamie, Brienne and everyone who's at the Wall are not in this book, they will be in the next book" and gave me several new POVs instead, I'd be mightily pissed. But I didn't have that experience, since I was reading them when all five books were published. I took ASOS and AFFC from the library at the same time, so I read them back to back, each took about three weeks, and I enjoyed AFFC almost as much as ASOS, even though there were not nearly as many climactic events and twists. (And I only waited some 3 months till I managed to get my hands on ADWD.) However, there's a lot of beautiful writing and character work in AFFC. Brienne's chapters are actually my favorite in the book second to Sansa's; I always found the storylines happening in the war-torn Riverlands especially interesting, so apart from really loving Brienne herself, I enjoyed getting a look into the aftermath of the war, and what became of the Bloody Mummers, the Brotherhood, Lady Stoneheart, and of course Sandor, who's by far my favorite non-POV character and possibly my favorite character overall (while he was mostly off page, they talked about him for half of the book). Jamie's and Cersei's chapters were also great. Cersei is a huge mess and a hilarious screw-up at this point where she's clearly losing it, but she is a really interesting and complex character (I really disagree with the idea that she's a "one-dimensional caricature" or that AFFC made her into one - something that fans of show!Cersei like to claim to make the show seem better). Although her ADWD chapters would serve as a better end to her AFFC storyline.

I do however think that AFFC and ADWD, though I liked them a lot separately, would make a better novel together, so I'm looking forward to re-reading them together, in the Feast-Dance order suggested by the Boiled Leather podcast.

But it doesn't have most people's favorite characters.. boo-fucking-hoo.

Jaime, Arya, Sansa and Brienne are many people' favorite characters, and Cersei is one of the most interesting to read about.

[Elessar]

Filler characters?

So.... you must know the end of the story? And yeah, some of them are.

[l2 0 5 5]

So George's filler characters are better than the main characters in your book. We'll there's always a few people with that state of mind I assume.

That's not what he's saying.

This series is very character-driven, and we should be able to look past the main four who have been there from the start, and still be able to find interest in other characters.

[Elessar]

I'm not reading this story to "keep up with Targaryens" or Snows, or Starks... I'm reading to watch the story unfold, see where it goes. If that means omitting Jon, Dany and Tyrion from a *gasp* whole book. Then so be it. I don't care. I don't think my expectations or wants matter one bit. It's George's story, and where he takes it is fine with me.

[Cas Stark]

I know why people dislike it, but I disagree with them completely. It is the most well written book in the series. Thematically beautiful, containing some of the most wonderful pieces (Septon Meribald's "broken man" speech should be memorized by actors the world over for use in monologues).

But it doesn't have most people's favorite characters.. boo-fucking-hoo.

What is the theme?

[Annara Snow]

That's not what he's saying.

This series is very character-driven, and we should be able to look past the main four who have been there from the start, and still be able to find interest in other characters.

There are six main characters who have been there from the start (as POVs), not four.

[Elessar]

The futility of war, it's effect on the small folk. The true cost of violence.

Seems obvious to me.

[Annara Snow]

Next question: if people supposedly disliked AFFC because Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the only characters they care about (I guess Bran doesn't count), then why did people dislike ADWD?

[Elessar]

Because "travelogues"

My opinion is that people don't see the story going where THEY want it to go. Tyrion isn't with Dany (as if that's the whole point of his fucking story)... and on and on. I stopped listening to the bitching long ago...

[l2 0 5 5]

There are six main characters who have been there from the start (as POVs), not four.

I'm well aware of that. Yet, Arya and Sansa are in Feast; while Bran, Tyrion, Jon, and Dany are not. That's where four comes from.

They're minor in Feast, however, and that's why I mentioned the other characters.

[sifth]

Filler characters?

So.... you must know the end of the story? And yeah, some of them are.

Arys Oakheart will certainly have a huge role to play, I just know it.

[AliceRose]

Next question: if people supposedly disliked AFFC because Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the only characters they care about (I guess Bran doesn't count), then why did people dislike ADWD?

AFFC is far better than ADWD